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FilmEdge wrote:
It almost makes me wonder that if Peter Weyland had this internal desire to create (or be) the perfect organism, did his predisposition for such a goal not only filter into Weyland's corporate agenda after his death, but indeed be replicated (in spirit, anyway) in the programming of future android products like Ash?


I agree. If anything, the preservation of intent and methodology would be preserved in a Creator > Android scenario to a level that isn't possible from child-rearing and Corporate adherence to Weyland's M.O.

With no inertia significant enough to counter it, Weyland's core initiatives would remain uncorrupted from David to Ash.

As an aside, I came across a quote from Scott:

Quote:
'We wont see any of the hatchlings, facehugers or chestbursters or the alien itself. We will see an organism that will eventually evolve into the essance of what Kane discovered on that other ship'


"Other ship", as in two Derelicts. I think we already have all the info we need to reject LV-426 as the Prometheus' destination.

Its tough to keep disciplined and hold fast to what we know, and not speculate counter-productively in the face of facts, even if its fun to do so (I am guilty of this worse than anyone!).

Also, and no way to confirm/refute this, but O'Bannon himself comments on the original script and how there were *two* alien species, the native which created the temple/pyramid structure, and the visitors (the Space Jockeys), way-laid on the planet's surface after contact with the indigenous species.

We just don't know what degree, if any, that Scott is observing that original script's canon. You have the pure strain vs the evolved strain which is confined strictly to what appears in the film. The two are not mutually exclusive at all.

Have to say though, that its mightily stimulating, the discussions we are having here, and I respect and enjoy your dialogue quite a but, FilmEdge.

Cheers!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:02 am
FilmEdge
Well, you guys have moved ahead in the conversation while I was typing up my reply to earlier thoughts. I'll let anyone interested see if my points about Special Order 937 contradict some of the inferences made about the Company pre-planning the mission on Acheron.

Meanwhile, while ALIEN played as I wrote, I stopped to listen to Ash's description of the xenomorph as a "perfect organism." When Lambert accuses him of admiring the alien, he replies:

"I admire its purity. A survivor. Unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions or morality."

Sound like anyone we know who harbors a life-giving God complex? koffPeter Weylandkoff

It almost makes me wonder that if Peter Weyland had this internal desire to create (or be) the perfect organism, did his predisposition for such a goal not only filter into Weyland's corporate agenda after his death, but indeed be replicated (in spirit, anyway) in the programming of future android products like Ash?

Are Peter Weyland's ambition and hubris the 'ghost in the machine' that will never die as long as Weyland-Yutani follows his business plan? And if so, has he inevitably cursed all the Company's actions with this defect ad infinitum? As set up by Ridley Scott and followed fairly well through three very different sequels, the one constant in this universe seems to be how everything the Company touches ends in tears and destruction eventually. I know that's a fairly common anti-greed storytelling theme... but might we now know *why* this is happening in the wake of the Company's efforts. The failure began at the source, long before Peter Weyland ever opened Pandora's box or stole the Promethean secret of the gods in this new film.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:45 am
FilmEdge
Re: LV-426
Planetoid (moon)
index wrote:
Correction: he does not say he has no idea what it is, he says he's "never seen anything like it". This is atom splitting, but technically he can say that and still be speaking truth while also concealing the fact that he does, indeed, know what it is.

I know what Australia is, despite never having seen it with my own eyes, follow? A fine distinction, but a relevant one if pursuing that line of thought.

Bottom line is there is not enough data in Alien v1 to quantify whether Ash had advanced intelligence about Acheron and the Derelict. This is one of the mysteries that makes the Alien story so great.

Scott knows that he cannot expose too many secrets without replacing with at least a proportional amount of new ones. It will be interesting seeing how he handles the bait and switch here.


I agree both that your distinction is splitting atoms but also may give Ash some wiggle room in telling the truth. It's the mark of good storytelling that we can't pin down his knowledge and motives so easily. Unless we corner Ridley Scott himself and ask him, I doubt we'll ever know the direct answer. On the other hand...

Yes, you know Australia because you've received a LOT of data about it, either through casual or direct sources of education. You've seen maps, globes, TV shows, films, perhaps met people from there, received a solid general education in your life, etc. You could probably rattle off plenty of valid facts about Australia without ever having seen it, let alone set foot on it. So could I and most of us here. And all that without ever formally studying it for a thesis or being briefed on it by one of its inhabitants at length. This proves nothing except that we accumulate knowledge through many sources at varying depths, and that our brains tend to catalogue such data and compile it for reference.

If Ash did "know what the ship was" but had never seen it with his own eyes, must that imply that he was given direct information about the SJ ship and all that implies? And frankly, if Ash was given his secret directive to retrieve the xenomorph in advance, why wouldn't the Company — armed with all that knowledge including it's connection to the SJ ship — NOT include an image of the ship in his mission data so he COULD recognize it on site? That seems a stupid detail to omit if they intend him to carry out their mission single-handedly. If WY has a standing order to seek out and contact any ship like the SJ's, that info would be the FIRST thing they would give to their operative, not the one item they would leave out, and that data would be given to every Ash and Mother out there looking.

This entire question arises from his sudden substitution into Dallas' crew just before takeoff. But to me that fact also raises a huge doubt that Ash knew all (or at least most) of what he'd find on Acheron. If the Company had pre-knowledge of the SJ derelict ship's position, and possibly a new hostile lifeform associated with it — then why the hell would they leave its retrieval to a bunch of truck drivers who, many months in the future, would eventually pass by Acheron to be diverted on their trip home?

To me this makes no sense at all, since it's a huge waste of resources and time to accomplish what should be a simple mission: go to Acheron, investigate the signal, retrieve any lifeform found and return it to Earth for exploitation. WY would just send a properly prepared, armed and trained team to go do that one thing if they want it done right... and above all, secretly. You don't send civilians out to meet ET if you want ETs to be kept top secret... even if you kill them one they meet ET. It's introducing a needless risk into the mission which jeopardizes the prime directive of the mission: exclusivity (as WY sees it). Worse, WY would be risking billions in mineral ore profits by 'wasting' the Nostromo on this entirely unrelated mission. If WY is about anything, it's about their bottom line... as evidenced in ALIENS when Ripley is charged by the company of losing all those profits by blowing up her ship.

Here's a fact straight from the film: Special Order 937 (as Ripley reads it on-screen) states --

Quote:
NOSTROMO REROUTED TO NEW COORDINATES. INVESTIGATE LIFE FORM. GATHER SPECIMEN.


I see nothing in that wording which indicates Ash was given a pre-flight briefing on Acheron, the beacon, the SJ derelict ship or what specimen he might find in it. "Rerouted" reads like an improvised order based on conditions of the moment, otherwise Nostromo would have been *routed* there originally in the flight plan (if unbeknownst to the crew except Ash). "New coordinates" also implies a deviation from standing ship orders and navigation plan, not an added (secret) detour which was planned before take off.

I can see Mother deciphering the beacon message as a warning, and perhaps even knowing the warning SJs were sending: "Hostile xenomorph lifeform infestation. Danger. Do not approach this moon" or whatever. Of course Mother would cloud or lie about her translation to Ripley as she investigates the signal, but that still doesn't insist that Mother knew she would FIND the beacon ahead of time. And SO 937's wording only supports that conclusion. Mother acted in conjunction with Ash, but in an improvised manner based on the surprise discovery of the beacon.

Even assuming every bit of knowledge gained from the encounter in PROMETHEUS were programmed into Mother and/or shared with Ash before he joined the Nostromo crew, it still seems to me their discovery caught them off guard and really unprepared to fulfill 937 successfully. And the proof is in the pudding, as it were, since Ash (and Mother) failed miserably in their secret mission for the Company. Again, Ash's directive was exposed about 2/3 the way through the film, which is all the more reason to convince me that the Company didn't mastermind this encounter from the start using the Nostromo crew as their puppets.

I think the Company knows something about what it's looking for in space thanks to events in PROMETHEUS, but has no idea when, where or if they'll ever encounter it again. ALIEN is a tale about the fallout of that undirected directive, and a cautionary tale about looking for bad things when not prepared to handle the results. Some might think, myself included, that this theme is not far off from what we might see in PROMETHEUS, but 'back then' the discovery comes as a total, possibly horrifying shock to humanity's image of itself and the universe beyond our knowledge. Pandora's box, as it were, and a nightmare courtesy of Peter Weyland's bioengineered hubris.

Like the xenomorph as Ash describes it, this Promethean fire... this forbidden knowledge is amoral in its native state. Fire can warm, it can help sustain us, or it can destroy us. If indeed a God or Gods are omniscient, then the more knowledge we learn, the greater our responsibility to respect that knowledge lest we misuse it against our better interests. Perhaps PROMETHEUS teaches us that lesson as a species, and ALIEN shows us the peril when we fail to remember it?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:30 am
index
Another way of confirming this is to plot the course the Nostromo takes from its point of origin to Earth, and then plot Acheron's position relative to those two. Makes sense that if headed to Earth, a relatively straight vector would be plotted. If LV-426 is located well beyond that course (on the edge of nowhere), you have more indirect evidence supporting WY knew about the signal and sent Nostromo to engage.

You can more or less assume that LV-426 is truly off the beaten path by also considering the fact that no other ship has come into contact with the signal. Dallas says the Space Jockey is 'fossilized'. That's not something that happens overnight. And signals in space travel at the same exact speeds, 300,000k/sec.

Consider the Hitler Olympics signal just now reaching Alpha Centauri, our closest star.

The Derelict signal had been transmitting for some time, in an outward expansion through space. For it to not have been picked up by regular shipping lanes and space traffic, its nowhere NEAR normal human space.

So how did the Company know about it?

cough *prometheus* cough..

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:53 am
index
Re: LV-426
Planetoid (moon)
IcedMetal wrote:
In fact, it's almost as if their return leg from wherever it was they had been was deliberately plotted to go within range of the signal.


Bingo.

Here is the conundrum for me with the signal and the Nostromo's position to receive it.

First, there has to be some kind of assumption that FTL travel is being utilized here; and we know that's a given taking the WI timeline into account.

During FTL travel, a ship would not be in a position to intercept a localized signal; they would be moving at a velocity that exceeds the signal's wavelengths.

So how did Nostromo happen upon the signal, if you're staying within bounds of sci-fi dogma and relatively accurate physics?

To recieve the signal, they would have to be going at less than FTL, which is unlikely, given their stasis. Adn factor this in:

Nostromo is seen powering up at the film's beginning. Its booting functions, and then the incoming signal is picked up, so you can deduce the following chronology:

1 - FTL travel

2 - FTL travel is suspended, and higher order functions of Nostromo come online.

3 - Derelict signal is received.

4 - Dallas is briefed by Mother.

That is the EXACT timeline in the first 15 minutes. In order for them to have occurred in this order, only one of two things may have happened:

FTL was disengaged and by chance this happened in space/time fortuitous to receive the Derelict signal, which stretches coincidence to the breaking point, OR..

The Company had advanced knowledge of the signal, and Nostromo's course was plotted to intercept it and engage. From this, you can also deduce that Ash was deployed as speculated, to execute Company order blah blah.

Who agrees here? Its pretty airtight, IMO.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:44 am
IcedMetal
Re: LV-426
Planetoid (moon)
FilmEdge wrote:
SevenSonicStructures wrote:


This is what I've been insisting for a while, and here's another reason why: I don't think they'd have bothered to make a prequel out of this just to directly reference and involve things from Alien like that, it'd have seen cheap and predictable. Obviously, one may wonder about the reasons Ridley Scott had to go back to his previous lauded works and make spinoff films based on them and simply claim "money", but one shouldn't forget that Alien and Blade Runner (yes, there's a sequel/prequel being considered too) are unapproachable by the common moviegoer due to its amount of visual detail and plot, and he has said he hated the treatment other directors gave to the Alien sequels (aside from Cameron of course). He wouldn't cheapen this for a quick buck.
Simply put, had this been Acheron LV-426, they wouldn't have been so secretive with the plot and wouldn't leave much room for speculation since we already know how it'd go.


This new moon in PROMETHEUS *not* being Acheron LV-426 also makes ALIEN and ALIENS make more sense plot-wise in a larger 'franchise' sense: the discovery of the beacon from the derelict ship on Acheron in ALIEN becomes a priority because Weyland-Yutani programming of Mother basically realized, 'Holy shit, we found another one!' It catches them by surprise, apparently, and they act hastily to deal with it via the Nostromo crew. Rather than replaying the events of PROMETHEUS (thus cheapening the value of the 'sequels'), the point of ALIEN becomes "Oh no, this isn't over yet!"

In short, nothing in PROMETHEUS automatically "undoes" events in ALIEN, but rather ALIEN is a continuation of the same plot complication which first arose in its "prequel". To tell it in chronological order, ALIEN is a sequel to PROMETHEUS, telling a tale about how this 'curse' hasn't ended at all. The other shoe drops, as it were.

Assuming events are true as given from the 1979 film, the beacon signal was discovered (or at least heard) by Mother and her programming awoke the crew. While her programming (and the crew's contracts) to investigate intelligent signals is convenient, it might also be a sign of WI purposely planting the seed for more (re)discoveries of the Space Jockey race and/or the Xenomorph species, the latter to be harvested for weapons tech in the ALIEN era. In a way, this alien signal clause is Weyland's policy of "Keep watching the skies just in case there's more (PROMETHEUS mystery source) out there."

Had the Acheron signal been beaming for years and discovered before events in ALIEN, WY would likely have sent more appropriately trained/equipped personnel to investigate it... not a crew of mining tow "space truckers" to go get it. This seems to ensure that the signal was "new" and WY insisted the closest personnel from the Company go have a look at all costs (per Ash), being unprepared or unable to rush a better-trained crew out there. And indeed if Ash was *not* pre-programmed with such orders about the Acheron signal/mission when he joined the crew (he says he has no idea what the derelict ship is when they see it), then he received his orders on-the-fly once landing on the moon... which may explain why he handled his mission so poorly in terms of android-human interface ("There were a few deaths involved.").

So, if the Acheron signal in ALIEN was a true, current-time discovery as evidence seems to support, then this can't be Acheron LV-426 in PROMETHEUS, or WI would have known the "derelict ship" was there all along after the PROMETHEUS era events.

If written well, prequelizing this franchise could work out to the benefit of ALIEN and ALIENS — unlike another popular franchise that went backwards and suffered for its prequels.


whilst I agree with most of what you said I was always under the impression that the Company knew about the signal from LV-426 at least a short while before the Nostromo ever set out on its mission.

Ash is said to have replaced the Nostromo's science officer just before the Nostromo leaves Thedus, which suggests to me that he was planted by the Company on the ship for a specific reason ie retrieve the organism. This would imply they knew about the signal and possibly what they would find there before the Nostromo picked the signal up. In fact, it's almost as if their return leg from wherever it was they had been was deliberately plotted to go within range of the signal.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:26 am
xinau
Hi folks -- mostly lurking, but the talk of alchemy along with some remarks about the "giant head" over at Viscal's prometheusforum.net reminded me of something. I did a search, and didn't see it mentioned, but I think the concept of the homonculus may have some bearing on the mythology or symbolism of the Prometheus plot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus

The recent images in the Prometheus TV spot that depict a stylized humanoid head atop the temple/mound/complex, containing a smaller human representation inside it, is an example of a homonculus.

Note in the Wiki article the connections to alchemy, modern medical science, theory of (artificial) intelligence, metaphysics, sexuality and the Faust/Frankenstein mythology.


[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Cartesian_Theater.svg[/img]

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:01 am
index
Re: LV-426
Planetoid (moon)
FilmEdge wrote:
I happen to think (so far) that the outcome WILL be bad for the humans in PROMETHEUS. But I'm just speculating that, to connect ALIEN to this 'prequel' loosely, that bad ending was in fact only the beginning — but not a de facto cause and effect between the two events. I could be all wrong, we'll see.


While I have nothing to justify this, my impression has always been we are looking at a terminal event in Prometheus; ie, everyone dies.

Its either that, or the only survivors are Company loyalists, and only the staunchest would suppress the impulse to disclose events.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:27 am
index
Re: LV-426
Planetoid (moon)
FilmEdge wrote:
And indeed if Ash was *not* pre-programmed with such orders about the Acheron signal/mission when he joined the crew (he says he has no idea what the derelict ship is when they see it), then he received his orders on-the-fly once landing on the moon...


Correction: he does not say he has no idea what it is, he says he's "never seen anything like it". This is atom splitting, but technically he can say that and still be speaking truth while also concealing the fact that he does, indeed, know what it is.

I know what Australia is, despite never having seen it with my own eyes, follow? A fine distinction, but a relevant one if pursuing that line of thought.

Bottom line is there is not enough data in Alien v1 to quantify whether Ash had advanced intelligence about Acheron and the Derelict. This is one of the mysteries that makes the Alien story so great.

Scott knows that he cannot expose too many secrets without replacing with at least a proportional amount of new ones. It will be interesting seeing how he handles the bait and switch here.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:21 am
index
JustThinking wrote:
Is Alchemy about as scientific as Astrology though? Would a real scientist have any interest in it?


haha..

You're kidding, right?



Quote:
In his Hypothesis of Light of 1675, Newton posited the existence of the ether to transmit forces between particles. The contact with the theosophist Henry More, revived his interest in alchemy. He replaced the ether with occult forces based on Hermetic ideas of attraction and repulsion between particles. John Maynard Keynes, who acquired many of Newton's writings on alchemy, stated that "Newton was not the first of the age of reason: He was the last of the magicians."[45] Newton's interest in alchemy cannot be isolated from his contributions to science.[5] This was at a time when there was no clear distinction between alchemy and science. Had he not relied on the occult idea of action at a distance, across a vacuum, he might not have developed his theory of gravity. (See also Isaac Newton's occult studies.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:12 am
Fonzontron
I've been Lurking for a fair while, and this is my first ARG. But in terms of the periodic table elements and a cipher, I was thinking if it may have anything to do with the Arecibo message.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arecibo_message

where the atomic numbers of elements made up part of the message, just a thought.

Edit: Also all the made up elements have 3 digit atomic numbers, even if they 000 water and 001 gas.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:09 am
FilmEdge
Tanmansmom wrote:
Doesn't it seem strange that the primary resource key is completely lacking in the elements that make up most of the world as we know it? All from most-to-least: five most common elements in Earth are iron, oxygen, silicon, magnesium and sulfur; atmospheric elements are nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon and hydrogen; human body elements are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and calcium.

Are these, for some reason, no longer considered key resources? Are they in such short supply that the company doesn't want to list them? Are they in short supply because WI is using them up to build Davids? Or am I just grasping at straws? Shocked


I think it may be that these are the most USEFUL (profitable?) elements to WI, not a survey of popular/common elements. With all of Weyland's super-advancements, partly based on his use of rare elements, it would seem that such rare or at least uncommon Earth elements would occupy the prioritized positions in WI's hierarchy.

Example from the cancer cure entry on the Timeline: "Using genetically-altered cells as well as elements found beyond Earth's heavens, Weyland successfully deploys an effective cure for almost all cancers."

In a way, it makes sense that a cure for cancer was not discovered or developed using quantities of common elements found on Earth — or someone might have discovered the cure before Peter did. But if Weyland 'cornered the market' on mining and retrieving these rare non-Earth elements, then he'd have all the power making these developments. His money comes from the stuff in 'rarified atmospheres', not the common clay under our feet daily.

The Primary Resource key is just that... Weyland's *primary* source of revenue and resources, not a survey of all available ones. Also, I'd agree with Chris that this key is likely for cipher/code use in the ARG.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:02 am
ChrisPachi
Tanmansmom wrote:
Doesn't it seem strange that the primary resource key is completely lacking in the elements that make up most of the world as we know it? All from most-to-least: five most common elements in Earth are iron, oxygen, silicon, magnesium and sulfur; atmospheric elements are nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon and hydrogen; human body elements are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and calcium.

Are these, for some reason, no longer considered key resources? Are they in such short supply that the company doesn't want to list them? Are they in short supply because WI is using them up to build Davids? Or am I just grasping at straws? Shocked


This is exactly why I suspect that the resources table is some kind of cipher/numerical sequence. The resources listed are weird because perhaps they needed a specific set of numbers. They chose the resources listed for their atomic numerals, not their relevance, and where they couldn't they either made resources up or deliberately give them the wrong numbers.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:27 am
Tanmansmom
Doesn't it seem strange that the primary resource key is completely lacking in the elements that make up most of the world as we know it? All from most-to-least: five most common elements in Earth are iron, oxygen, silicon, magnesium and sulfur; atmospheric elements are nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon and hydrogen; human body elements are oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and calcium.

Are these, for some reason, no longer considered key resources? Are they in such short supply that the company doesn't want to list them? Are they in short supply because WI is using them up to build Davids? Or am I just grasping at straws? Shocked

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:43 pm
JustThinking
BitGamer wrote:
JustThinking wrote:
Is Alchemy about as scientific as Astrology though? Would a real scientist have any interest in it?


Yeah, alchemy is the basis of scientific chemistry. Consider it like basic laboratory chemistry, mixed with spiritual/magical/religious principles. The study of alchemy did further the understanding of gunpowder and distillation, and develop a basic "periodic table."

For example, everybody knows one of the goals of alchemy was to turn lead into gold. Now, alchemists certainly used devices that a modern chemist would recognize (burners, vials, distillation equipment and such), but they believed that scientific achievements could be reached by employing magic, for lack of a better term. Well, today, conceivably, one could create gold through atomic manipulation - actually shaping or forming gold atoms from the appropriate constituent parts. But you'd need something like a particle accelerator or nuclear reactor to break down atoms. You know, equipment that could only be built/maintained by extraordinarily wealthy organizations. Like a government. Or a multi-national corporation.


Alchemy may have gotten some results through practical experimentation-but the theory behind it was really nonsense I think. If the story says Weyland was advancing science by finding the mythical Norse substance Eitr and the again mythical Carmot that was supposed to make up the Philosopher's Stone, then it is heading dangerously into Harry Potter/Nicolas Flamel territory.

The only way it wouldn't be very silly I guess, would be if the original stories came from the alien visitors that left the star maps. Then you could say layers of myth were built up around them, but that there are substances that can do seemingly "magical" things out there. I would assume they would have a scientific basis in that case, that could fit into modern understanding.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:22 pm
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