[14:04] so, it's 4:00, i s'pose we should start, but I don't know where to begin [14:04] my clock is always wrong [14:04] by my clock - got some questions prepared - any ideas how to begin [14:04] Hey DIANDRA [14:04] is there a question out to start with? [14:04] well, let's start with one of your questions :) [14:04] from the forums mebbe [14:04] Alright, here goes: " [14:04] I'm trying to test the definition of an ARG a little. Do you usually [14:04] have an innocuous main storyline (eg. NRU university) with a hidden back [14:04] story? [14:05] --> colin (colin@9b184f5.52eef1c.31a16b5d.307e4d48X) has joined #tba [14:05] well, every time we've planned one, we've had a main theme or story to tell [14:05] and then we develop a couple possible side plots [14:06] But is there always a 'cover story'? [14:06] and then see which ones the players latch onto [14:07] interesting. So you actually don't plan the story arc - you've got multiple options? [14:07] "cover story" may be pushing it. Multiple interlocking story lines, yes. [14:07] no, we plan a main story arc [14:07] and we have definite points that we have to hit (a has to happen and then b has to happen) [14:07] and that develops and sets the tone for the main story [14:07] You'll have to pardon my wording - My appreciation should mask my vocabulary. [14:08] and for the "main storyline" (or 2 of them, we've used 2 or 3 'main story lines') [14:08] the general path is known and worked out [14:09] but we make them as inviting as possible for subplots [14:09] If the players latch on to a particular 'side story' - does that drive the main story? [14:09] I think I'll be quiet for a minute. [14:09] it hasn't changed the main story, but it has changed aspects of what's happened [14:09] for lockjaw, our two main stories intersected with a character (Bruce/Vad) [14:10] * SunnyOne was created for comic relief [14:10] he was supposed to recieve more influence from another character that the players hated [14:10] so we shifted that influence [14:10] but he still recieved that influen [14:10] ce [14:11] just the way that he got it was changed [14:11] does that make sense? [14:11] yes [14:11] Yeah. [14:12] so the players reactions to the characters influence what happens? [14:12] yes, but it doesn't change the main story line [14:13] for MU, i started working out the story in a software program, but didn't finish with it for various reason [14:14] for my next project, if i ever do another one, i'll utilize it more because it really helps to keep key points straight [14:14] imbri: what kind of software? [14:14] serves as a reminder of what you need your characters to achieve [14:14] specific story software, or excel or something? [14:14] a storyline builder, there are a coupld different ones out there [14:14] gotcha, thanks [14:15] and andy has also built a program just for ARG development that we're beginning to mess with [14:15] that also does that [14:15] ohhh kewl [14:16] but the narrative is important and in order for the story to be complete and make sense (which is hard when it's nonlinear and we're all so used to linear storytelling) [14:16] so you should really work out the key events and stick to them [14:17] --> cabal (lurker@2e01205d.1c25dec6.cable.rcn.com) has joined #tba [14:17] otherwise, in our experience, you tend to tell incomplete stories or lose track of characters [14:17] hey cabal [14:17] hey dave [14:17] we lost a few in LJ that way, we didn't have it mapped out and once we were live we lost it [14:17] hey cabal! [14:17] hi everyone [14:18] hey dave [14:18] i'm always impressed by the amount of depth of knowledge in things like mythology, which seems to be a recurrent theme - and i wonder if that's an innate interest of the person(s) making the game, or is it "pick a topic and research it to the finest detail and apply that to the game"? As Martin Mull once asked: which is first, words, or lyrics? [14:19] and after LJ I was going over things that Sean Stewart said in order to avoid that in the future and the "key points" thing really lept out at me [14:19] dmax, i think it's both. i also think mythology is pretty 'easy' to adapt to and work with [14:20] but i know that I've always been interested in greek & roman mythology [14:20] clay is an endless well of little bits of things [14:20] but we've all researched possible symbols to use and then researched them and researched them some more [14:21] i would agree with imbri - i always use topics I am familiar but if I need to include other topics I do research them intensely [14:21] How long does development take, from the time you decide to go with an idea to running the game? [14:22] well, LJ dev was 9 months from the time we came together until we went live [14:22] for MU, we started in mid August and were live Oct 1 [14:22] --> aiesha (aiesha_ano@2d996ff7.16190e58.15ce2659.306c6d51X) has joined #tba [14:23] Hey aiesha [14:23] hi everyone [14:23] i know the beast started dev in late december/early Jan and were live in march [14:23] if you are really dedicated, you can pull it off in a couple months. but it takes a TON of dedication [14:24] you have a lot to do... work out the story, develop characters, figure out domain names, secure hosting [14:24] come up with puzzles, figure out your budget and where you want the money to go [14:24] build the sites [14:25] What's an estimate for budgeting? [14:25] that depends on a lot of factors... hosting costs (going with free servers, shared or dedicated hosting) [14:26] but you can get domain names for $15 [14:26] so if you figure you need 10 sites, that's $150 [14:26] I suppose it fluctuates - volunteer efforts or not, etc. - but have there been any costs that you didn't foresee? [14:27] going over bandwidth was a big concern, both times around [14:27] Mystery another fact is also whether or not you will use real phone numbers, how many, 800 #s [14:27] but other than that, not really [14:27] 1and1 does domains for like 7 bucks [14:28] timeline oopses that prolong the game leading to longer hosting needs and more charges - that's not fun [14:28] and k7.net gives out free voicemail boxes in the 206 area ccode [14:28] you can get domains as low as $4.95 some places (i think that's the cheapest i've seen) [14:28] you can also get them for free if you sign up for shared hosting accounts [14:28] yah, I've found some pretty cheap hosting sites [14:29] ja [14:29] so if you're going to go with shared hosting, you can figure out the best plans and often throw a domain on them to save you a few dollars [14:29] A bit off-topic, but obviously ARGs take advantage of the great effect paranoia can have for dramatic tension. Has anyone tried a story that didn't seem to be threatening someone? Did this work out? (I'm imagining the romantic-comedies of ARGs right now) [14:30] i don't know of one that's gone live, i know of one in development that isn't using paranoia [14:30] mystery - might make it more difficult to justify the puzzle element with such a plot? [14:30] but paranoia provides a great reason for people to hide or conceal information [14:31] which provides for puzzles :) [14:31] oh, what about the greatamericanstory [14:31] or novel? [14:31] i forget what the domain is, i didn't subscribe to it, so i'm not sure of the storyline [14:32] Puzzles: How do work them all in? How do you find spots to put them? and if I can make this question longer, what do you do if people can't solve them, do you have extra clues ready? [14:32] http://www.greatamericannovel.com/ [14:32] brutal assault, mis-sent email [14:34] well, puzzles have always been a sort of after thought. we've always had a puzzle dump and work on puzzle ideas, but we try to keep them general and know what sort of information that they could contain [14:35] then when we know we have a possibile use for a puzzle, we create it (some have been created 2 minutes before they've gone live...not recommended!) [14:35] but we always try to work reasons for puzzles into the story [14:35] a paranoid character is a great way [14:36] but it's easy and, perhaps, why it's so used [14:36] Puzzles are an interesting dilemma - too many and they seem artificial or forced and too few and players complain they need more; they are also hard to judge in terms of how fast they will be solved [14:37] sometimes a puzzle you think will stump people is solved in minutes and other times one you think is easy one will drag on for days [14:37] What about the paranoia that sometimes translates to the player? I'm thinking recently of having CDs mailed to your home addresses. Is that an inherent quality of ARGs (not that I disagree)? [14:37] that is so true! [14:37] its always good to have alternative hints and avenues lined up [14:38] --- fireball|1st_Intermission is now known as fireball|All_Star_Hockey [14:38] i don't think that's an inherent quality. i don't think that we've ever done anything to specifically create it [14:38] though, they've created it on their own a bit [14:39] --- the42guy is now known as the42guy_away [14:39] which, brings up something that I think is important and is sometimes hard to remember when you're live... let the players work through the story, don't spell it all out [14:40] i read a good article on the 10 mistakes that writers often make and that was on there, so it's not something just with ARGs [14:40] Do you recruit other writers to play specific characters or does the PM voice them all? Is it pre-scripted for them (within narrative limits) or is it more improvisational style (define character motives and let the characters drive the story)? [14:40] as PMs we're always looking for the players to spec [14:41] it's been done different ways. we've never recruited other writers and we've always matched PMs with characters [14:42] but CTW was very successful with recruiting players to do voicing BTS [14:42] its been a mixture for me mystery - my first two games I did all the characters myself, in CTW I recruited people to play certain roles but allowed them to script responses based on guidelines and plot I provided [14:42] i enjoyed that game very much [14:42] my thought in doing this was to allow the these people playing single characters to still enjoy as much of the game as possible [14:44] * mysteryjones has more questions, but will back off for a while... [14:44] but interacting with the characters is always in the control of the PMs [14:44] good questions mj [14:44] very good [14:44] whether to answer an email or not,etc [14:45] How many people 'finish' an ARG, I know Mu logged 120,000 IPs, but how many players do you think were still around at the end? 10% 50% 90%?? [14:46] oh, we were still gettin a ton of players at the end, i don't have the figures [14:46] do you know for any other ARGs? [14:46] so Acheron is the first ARG i [14:46] with lockjaw, we lost about 1/4-1/3, but we also gained [14:46] sorry [14:47] there are different types of players [14:47] there are those that lurk and those that are vocal [14:47] I'm very impressed with the gender balance among the dedicated Unfiction crew - do you find this to be representative of the larger ARG community? Or is it skewed towards a gender? [14:47] those that check in once a week, those that check 10 times a day [14:48] i think that it's representative [14:48] and I don't have any figures, but if we'd call "onlinecaroline" an arg, I'd say that she had an audience that was almost all female [14:49] I have heard of other games that collapsed or failed (i think pale figure was alluding to this in the post) why does this happen? [14:50] oh, a number of them have failed or are progressing so slowly that I don't hold out much hope [14:50] i was working on a commercial project that failed because the funding was dropped [14:50] talk more commercial [14:51] ...not that i'm looking at a comercial project or anything [14:51] i have been working ona couple of potential commercial projects that have also folded for financial reasons [14:51] * colin covers tracks [14:51] in PF's case, it was about inactivity on the boards, people didn't know how they fit in and just stopped offering their thoughts on things that needed to be decided [14:51] posting dropped dramatically and then slowed to nothing [14:51] and when someone would post and noone would reply, they'd be discouraged from posting more in the future [14:52] well, the project that I was working on was actually a "traditional" game, to be marketed on cd [14:52] imbri - has there been a 'leader' in the team args you've developed or was a cooperative possible? [14:53] but it had a large online aspect, a sort of ongoing ARG that would both have it's own story and provided clues and help to the game on cd [14:53] it was incredible and we still have some hope that our work was not all in for naught [14:54] we've been as cooperative as possible, but those that are most active wind up in 'leadership' positions just because they know the project inside and out and what's happening when and how [14:55] what do you do when player interest starts to lag? is that something you can anticipate? [14:56] you try to figure out why it was lagging (story? pacing? puzzles?) and attempt to repair the problem and recover any damage and losses by working with what they like [14:56] if that's shifting the story focus for a few updates or changing the puzzles around [14:57] yes i find it really important to monitor the forums and players emails etc to see what they like, dislike, want more of etc [14:57] i dont believe in using the boards in-game, but they are crucial for getting player feedback [14:57] i'm of the same thought [14:58] what about monitoring player chat rooms? [14:58] you both say getting feedback during the game is important, have you ever been in a position where you couldn't get feedback? [14:58] you have to be prepared to read negative or critical ideas though [14:58] and use them constructively and not take it personally [14:58] well, i've been the "pm spy" twice now, and so I'm a bit biased in that i'm for it [14:59] so it is valuable to post spec? [14:59] i find that you get a different feel in the chat than you do on the board [14:59] oh, spec posts are very important [15:00] i didn't realize that, I mostly spec in chat [15:00] What's worked best for you for putting clues/story into real life? I'm thinking specifically here of putting messages in geographic locations. [15:00] as a player, i will say that the one thing players really like are updates. so, imho, keeping things updated is first priority, and listening to opinion about actual plotline is second. [15:01] well, yes, the game play comes first [15:01] but you can use what you know from the boards in enhancing the game play [15:02] but updates are essential, not something that you can avoid for long with much success [15:02] pacing is also very important [15:02] the thing that has surprised me the most is the emotional reaction/attachment I have to the characters. HOw do you work with the emotional responses in the story? [15:02] and that goes along with the updates [15:02] and you can get a good feel for you pacing by monitoring the boards [15:03] we kill characters the players like :) [15:03] * SunnyOne sings I was in the right place but itwas at the wrong time [15:03] we killed Moot and we 'killed' dina [15:03] in Lockjaw, we knew that we had to have a couple of the hackers killed [15:04] and we had no idea who, until the players LOVED moot [15:04] that sealed his fate [15:04] and we made it more heartwrenching by killing him with a hacker character that was his opposite [15:04] so his last moments were not well spent [15:04] <-- jamesi has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [15:04] that's so cruel :( , but works so well :) [15:04] you are wicked imbri heh [15:05] I always try and anticipate the players reaction to characters but like Imbri said that is sometimes that is hard to do too [15:05] I actually rewrote parts of CTW based on player reaction [15:05] to some extent that is [15:06] like not killing phyllis:) [15:06] no :) [15:06] oh sorry [15:06] misunderstanding [15:07] How do you keep confidentiality? Have non-disclosure agreements, or just work with people you trust? [15:07] --> j[a]mesi (jamesi@25b55acd.2b3a2604.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #tba [15:07] --- ChanServ sets mode +a #tba j[a]mesi [15:08] just work with people you trust, but we had 'issues' in Lockjaw where one of the guys on the PM team not only tried to recruit PMs off of our team for his game but once he quit he attempted to ruin the story for the players when the game went live [15:08] fortunately we were able to stop that before it got really out of hand [15:08] How have you dealt with interference from out-of-game characters posing as in-game? [15:08] you just never know [15:09] pulled out our hair [15:09] heh [15:10] it really depends on the situation [15:10] in LJ we had a player create a character and we wound up writing him into the story [15:11] in MU, we had a person create a site and make it seem in game and we didn't like that, so we proved that it wasn't in game by giving all true in game sites a distinct marker [15:11] (they all linked to an image hosted on a specific and known in game domain) [15:12] --> bagsbee (bagsbee@f5eb36d.52627b1.nyc.rr.com) has joined #tba [15:13] heya bagsbee [15:13] have in real life clues had the same problem? people messing with them or taking them? [15:13] hey there [15:13] did i miss everything? [15:13] btw this could become even more of an issue - there has been discussion on certain forums on the fringes of the arg world about "hijacking" someone else's arg in an attempt to change it completely or even ruin it [15:14] i was think it, but i didn't want to say it, it seems almost easy to do [15:15] gotta love em :) the somethingawful crowd was doing that with mu. jerks :/ [15:16] I'm really interested in the crowd Mu attracted, because it was fan fiction from a big movie alot of new people came on board, it would be great to know more about the people that played. [15:16] How do you feel about tying your project to another larger one? Did you get any response from the Wachowski bros.? [15:17] we didn't get any response from them [15:17] Did a wide cross-section of people in Mu make it hard to manage? [15:17] i don't know if I'd do it again [15:18] in some respects, yes [15:18] because there were so many different player venues and they were often at different places [15:18] and to hint to someone ages behind on something that UF had found would have sent UF into a frenzy wondering why something changed [15:18] This is one of the biggest questions I've got [15:18] have you ever considered a possible ARG that would progress in stages according to the individual user? - I ask because there is the issue of late-joiners who see websites that are well underway with the story. [15:19] i've thought about it [15:19] <-- cabal has quit (Quit: Leaving) [15:19] I suppose it would ruin the collaboration? [15:19] but my attempt to work with that is to not change the "integrity" of the sites [15:20] --> Lurker (lurker@2e01205d.1c25dec6.cable.rcn.com) has joined #tba [15:20] so that new users can come in and catch themselves up without having to use player resources to find out the updates [15:20] <-- Lurker has quit (Client exited) [15:20] cabal! come back :) [15:20] --> cabal (lurker@2e01205d.1c25dec6.cable.rcn.com) has joined #tba [15:22] --> Guest5861186 (Magesteff@1328406c.34823d30.pbi.bellsouth.net) has joined #tba [15:22] if a site completely changes or just goes away, it's harder for the new players to understand the history of the site [15:23] Exactly - I tried to get involved with CTW but found it a difficult path of dead ends at the beginning... [15:23] --- Guest5861186 is now known as Magesteff [15:23] i missed part of this due to getting booted out but it also destroys any illusion that a game is really happening if different players are at different points experiencing different things [15:24] good point - do you think anyone participates in these games without consulting others on forums? [15:24] yes [15:24] do they keep up? [15:25] i know that DO attempted to go through the beast on his own [15:25] yes definitely CTW had many many players who never ever posted on or checked the boards [15:25] and he did a pretty decent job of it [15:25] how do you track the players so well? [15:26] and we had a lot of people in MU that were finding things later on or, even right away, and weren't associated with any of the "big boards" so they didn't know what all was happening [15:26] Acheron is a good example of this - everthing reset over the holidays. It'd be impossible to find the 'back story' now... [15:26] nod [15:26] well, the site logs will tell you where people are coming in [15:27] that's how we found a lot of boards [15:27] google also works pretty well [15:27] and you just add them to your bookmarks and skim through them on occasion to find out where they are [15:28] --- the42guy_away is now known as the42guy [15:28] individual players are a different story, but you could track with cookies and such [15:28] --> Addlepated (addlepated@18251e65.2e099bf0.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #tba [15:28] Do you find that it's possible, given the unpredictability of cookies? [15:30] MJ, I had my original cookies for Acheron for at least 5 months [15:30] i don't know, but if you were interested in monitoring them, you could find a way [15:31] how many hours a day does it take to run, once your live? [15:31] too many :) [15:31] excluding monitoring chat [15:32] i had an idea to have a character in the game act as a "chronicler" of the game, playing the part of an investigator or something - archive all the sites puzzles etc a day or two after they really happened so that everything from the beginning would be constantly available throughout the game, but it turned out to be an overwhelming amount of add'l work [15:32] and i generally finds it takes about 26 hours a day once a game is live :) [15:32] that seems about right :) [15:33] ok, so I've failed once at starting an ARG. How do you manage to make sure your game runs the full time? (keeping in mind - games that finish halfway through....) [15:33] most time comsuming thing? [15:33] and it varies, update days are much more hectic (at least if you operate on a last minute schedule like we do) [15:33] per individual BTS or each person? [15:33] or collectively [15:33] Well, you do it. If you commit to something, you follow through with it. [15:33] I was talking to krystyn about this the other day [15:34] we think that we're wired in such a way that not doing it or not finishing it was never an option [15:34] yah? [15:35] it takes over your life and you have to be prepared for that [15:35] but we were each putting in 40-60 hour weeks during LJ [15:35] honestly, once a game launches i literally spend almost every waking moment working on or thinking about the game and like imbri said, quitting for me was never really an option [15:35] why do you need to spend that much time on it when its live? [15:35] we smartened up in ways during MU and that number dropped, but it's always there and always over your head [15:36] one of my main time consumers in CTW was trying to personalize e-mail responses [15:36] instead of relying on autoresponders etc [15:36] i wanted it to feel like the charcaters were actually getting to know you [15:36] well, there's writing the content, developing the puzzles, researching situations and possibilities [15:36] Cabal it was really appreciated too [15:36] at leat by me :) [15:36] adding pages to the sites, working on the graphics, etc [15:37] and me [15:37] ok, so mainly that the content was still being created [15:37] yes, we were still creating the content [15:38] thanks, mage and sunny :) don't forget time monitoring the boards, coming up with hints for unsolved puzzles and so on [15:38] Do you think it is possible to creat the pages ahead of time, at least a majority of the content for the web sites, and tweaking them once the game goes live? [15:38] is it foolish to create the content beforehand? [15:38] because no matter how much you want to be able to have it all done in development, you really can't if you want the experience to be fluid and responsive to the players [15:38] we created some content beforehand [15:39] for me thats always the goal but i never quite get there, the urge to launch overpowers the desire to wait until everything is done [15:39] and a lot of the base stuff never changed [15:39] and i also agree its important to be flexible and responsive to players and events [15:39] cabal: for me thats always the goal but i never quite get there, the urge to launch overpowers the desire to wait until everything is done - Like the greywethers login? [15:39] but when you suddenly realize that subplotX is hugely popular, you start redesigning things to enhance that [15:39] :-) [15:39] do you set a launch date first, or start development at set a date down the track? [15:40] we knew for mu that we were going to launch october 1st, i think we figured that out the day after we decided to go for it [15:40] for LJ, we were going to launch in october, then it was november, then it was december, then it was feb 1 [15:41] I joined the chat late so trout freely if I ask anything that's been answered... I'd like to get involved in the creation of an ARG, but my schedule most likely wouldn't allow me to be a PM. How does one become a BTS person? For that matter, what are typical things that BTS people do? [15:42] <-- ScrappyDoo has quit (Quit: rebooty) [15:42] Sorry - BTS? [15:42] we've never utilized BTS people, so I can't answer. Cabal? [15:43] are BTS just PMs who realize they don't have the time? [15:43] in CTW i let BTS people do a variety of things from creating items, to answering e-mails, to creating entire sites based on content/guidelines I provided [15:43] who were these people? players? friends? [15:43] part of my thinking was to allow people who couldnt commit tons of time to participate [15:44] mj: BTS= behind the scene(s) [15:44] people i recruited during CTW registration and people i knew from earlier args [15:44] but i also wanted to have a team of BTS/PM people who didn't know each other and who could still play and enjoy the game as players [15:45] each one controlled their character but didnt know the overall BTS picture or other characters BTS stuff [15:45] Did you find that worked well? [15:45] in real life they wouldnt know this stuff either, so in some cases it allowed for more realistic responses [15:46] did *you* find it a lot of work? [15:46] i thought it worked fairly well but it was a major commitment of time and effort from me as the central PM [15:46] to keep everything coordinated yet isolated [15:46] i probably wouldnt do it quite the same way again [15:47] --> vpisteve (~vpisteve@191e2813.2ae78891.lv.cox.net) has joined #tba [15:47] steve! [15:47] whoa [15:47] he lives! [15:47] * vpisteve waves [15:47] hi steve [15:47] heya imbri. heya dave [15:47] Hey great - a fresh face to grill with questions! [15:47] uh oh [15:47] as a PM do you create systems to handle what's happening, or your just so involved that you know what needs to be done and remember everything? [15:48] --> ScrappyDoo (scarpegros@3ee19918.3cbc6b2b.2c546df3.2e099bf0X) has joined #tba [15:48] have you ever forgotten anything and had to cover your tracks? [15:48] we just tried to be as organized as possible [15:49] i can't think of any major incident, a few things have had to be postponed to the next update [15:49] or go up late [15:49] cabal, what would you change about using BTS people? [15:49] actually sometimes the players create these great little guides which can save your ass when you forget certain details along the way; even though i script everything out its easy to get confused because you are dealing with so many different timelines and plots [15:50] heh [15:50] --- fireball|All_Star_Hockey is now known as fireball [15:50] oh, heck, i can't count how often i refered to steve & space's guide & trail during lockjaw [15:50] and brienigma's site during mu was instrumental on several occasions [15:51] esp when it came to voicing some of the 'urchins' [15:51] as far as the BTS people, I think I would provide them with more detailed and long term guides and scripts, eliminatin g the need for constant contact [15:51] but i would still allow people who cant devote tons of time to participate as they can [15:52] there's so much talent out there in such diverse areas, why not let the video producers help as they can and the perl scripters etc? [15:52] ignore this *** **** [15:52] along the lines of what someone said before about the PMs creating a "guide" for new players, why not just have one of the players do it? [15:53] I've got to go, thank you all for your time. :) [15:53] bye colin [15:53] oh, we've tried that on a couple occasions [15:53] cu colin [15:53] Thanks for your help colin [15:53] <-- colin (colin@9b184f5.52eef1c.31a16b5d.307e4d48X) has left #tba [15:53] for example, suppose imbri that you had asked BrianEnigma to help writing a guide for MU [15:53] one of the difficulties in that is that what player knows everything as intimately the players [15:53] in our case, that would've torn the curtain [15:53] so he could be a BTS and not have to know anything esle about the story [15:54] oh, you mean having the player write one for you... what steve said :) [15:54] having a player write it is best, imo (speaking from both sides of the curtain)...... [15:54] well I figured since people are writing guides anyway, recruit one of them to help you guys [15:55] depends on how strong of a curtain you want, meta-wise, i suppose [15:55] just an idea [15:55] yeah but the curtain would only be torn for that one person [15:55] yeah, true [15:55] I had a question posted earlier about placing story elements in real life (geographically) - how do you feel about that? [15:55] one of the difficulties in that is a) the curtain issue and b) what if the person you recruit looks at the game in day 1 and says "this sucks!" [15:55] and to tell you the truth if I was writing a guide and the PMs asked for my help, I'd be thrilled :) [15:55] if the game is interesting and involving enough, normally players are excited about creating trails and guides [15:56] then there's the question of how players would react at endgame when they found out one of their fellow players was 'in on it' to a certain extent. [15:56] although some of us don't update as often as others [15:56] they probably wouldn't care, but you never know. people can get funny about that kind of thing [15:56] was there any of that after CTW, since you had BTS people who were also playing? [15:56] :) [15:57] i honestly dont believe thats a problem if a couple of things are considered - [15:57] first, if there's no prize or winner, it doesnt really matter if BTS people also play as long as they dont shill the game or solve their own puzzles etc [15:58] in CTW, the BTS didnt know anything about the puzzles etc and so couldnt change anything or look like heroes by solving things [15:58] i hated being suspected of knowing the answer to a puzzle i solved for CTW. i had nothing to do with the puzzle creation. But everyone knew i was Tracie [15:58] In fact one of them made the game a lot more fun when she took over one of the characters [15:59] yes I agree [15:59] Since everyone knew you were Tracie - did you consider steps to change this story element? [15:59] I just can't forget all the hell that the CM mods caught when it was discovered that they had been contacted by the PMs [15:59] hey, i want to mention something personally. having bts players or not are just two different approaches/philosophies. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other, but they definitely present their own unique set of challenges and meta issues. :) [16:00] Tracie appeared on video...and people playing knew that it was me. there wasn't a way around it [16:00] but were BTS-as-players in contact with other players during CTW, and if so, was there any weirdness after? [16:00] so, i think that if there are BTS people, that should be known, i think [16:01] Bagsbee, Sunny was a bts for CTW, I had no problem with it [16:01] secondly, there will always be people who complain about the way any game is run - ive seen it in every game from Majestic to Metacortechs, you cant please everybody [16:01] or with Sally who took over Phyllis [16:01] cabal, exactly :) [16:01] I dunno, I just always felt really bad for the way the CM mods were treated and have held that with me [16:01] sally and I became good friends [16:01] and maggiemae as well [16:01] after the game [16:01] i was bts as well [16:01] for ctw [16:01] having all the BTS people in CTW made it really fun when the credits were revealed...finding out who was playing who [16:02] <----tries to play all the angles :P [16:02] it was kinda emotional [16:02] oh, i have no issues with BTS and utilizing player characters [16:02] * mysteryjones is so pissed he wasn't part of CTW [16:02] i just think that it would help at the endgame if that was known in advance (that it was a possibility) [16:02] you should be mj [16:02] lelele [16:02] * Magesteff pats MJ on the shoulder [16:03] i think the way ctw handled bts folks was great [16:03] a BTS person is just a PM who didnt put as much time into the game as others, im sure in LJ and metacortechs there were PMs who didnt do as much as others, the only difference is that in CTW these PMs didnt know the overall story of the game so they could still play and enjoy it; i dont see why that should bother anyone [16:03] I don't think that it should [16:03] * bagsbee consoles mysterjones by saying that there will be something bigger and better coming along [16:03] I thot it was an excellent way to do it [16:03] * SunnyOne thinks that ctw will be a very tough act to follow [16:04] I was thinking more along the lines of the Mods being contacted by the PM (behind a closed curtain and not "bts) [16:04] it bothered a lot of people and hate mail was sent on and, i assume, off the list [16:04] when it came out that they got a trip to seattle, it got really bad [16:04] i think it's all about expectations, imbri [16:05] they did a ton of work and didn't deserve to have their experience soured in that way [16:05] there were never any BTS or PM people from CTW assigned to the chatrooms so we didnt really have that issue; i never once went in a ctw chatroom during ctw and never asked anyone to spy or monitor them for me [16:05] exactly steve, that's why i said that if there are bts people, it should be known (just my opinion, not right or wrong, of course) [16:05] * mysteryjones consoles himself with the gorgeous sunset and -20 degree weather here in EST [16:05] so any ctw mods were entirely outside the curtain [16:05] but there were mods on unfiction [16:06] I have a question that may have already been answered... [16:06] i don't know how players would have reacted if it came out that Anthrax, Scappy, Gup, BriEnigma, etc were in communication with the PMs during the game (they weren't) [16:07] One of the problems I have seen in both CTW and Acheron (those being my only experiences) we had a lot of people joining in the middle of the game (me included on CTW) [16:07]