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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[LOCKED] [META] Dogpiling, factions, etc.
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KrunkSplein
Boot

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 37

 		Okay. I can forgive Weephun, though it is upsetting that he so readily divulged all our information on the SP.

But what I cannot forgive is withholding information from the rest of the community. For many people, the enjoyment of this ARG is running very thin. Going out to payphone after payphone for 40-someodd seconds of out-of-context dialogue just isn't cutting it for many of us. Then, there's a breakthrough - Melissa starts calling people live! Finally, after weeks of axon hunting (or camping, as it's becoming), we might actually have a real plot advance in the works! But wait - the people who GET the calls from Melissa may decide that they aren't going to share the information with the rest of the community!

See, therein lies a problem. This game exists solely because of the community. If there were no players willing to trod out across the country to answer phones, the game simply would not continue. As it was stated earlier, if the live calls went out the next day, there would be an entirely different crew. Thus, no one person is so special and important that he/she should get information that the others do not. Keeping information to yourself defeats the entire purpose of the ARG, and does nothing but alienate the (already worn out) community.

Just my thoughts.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:31 am
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Ranger D
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
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 		You bring up an excellent point vpisteve. The PMs are ultimately drive the direction of this game. I don't want to discount the work weephun has done, but someone was going to give Melissa the info. And weephun had the incredible luck at being that person. And even better, he held out to make the Friday updated even more of a surprise. If anything this game is getting better, I would say.

Ranger D
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:35 am
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johnny5
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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 		My counter point:
I agree with the decision made by Weephun because it advanced the plot of this ARG/ARS without divulging what would have been a huge spoiler. I for one enjoyed the surprise and prefer not to have such a major plot point revealed on the premise of some unofficial ARG doctrine of "full disclosure". We all know that no matter how much you try to keep a spoiler secret on this board, some yutz will put it in the subject of a new post, ruining it for everyone.

If he had revealed it, what would have been the benefit? A spoiler. That's it. Whatever happens in this game, we will find out about it. The plot will advance. Let the players play their roles. If it's Axon duty, answer the phone. If it's keeping a secret to protect a juicy surprise, clam up.

As a side note, Bellebet previously got an email from Dana with certain elements that weren't disclosed.
No one jumped on her for it.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:19 am
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thebruce
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
IMnotGarbage wrote:
when it comes to withholding information from the rest of the ARG gamers then that makes me upset. From day 1 Melissa has said i will be transmitting to my crew/ or to people she thinks are her crew. And from day 1 people have been answering payphones just as much or maybe even more than everyone whos recieved live calls. Basically what im saying is if where suppose to be in this together and solve this mystery together than it going to be hard to do that when/if someone is hiding valuable information from the rest of the team. I mean it doesnt make much since for just one person to know or just a handful of people.

2 things... once again you're working under the assumption that ALL information is REQUIRED to be public. That's a rule that people made up based on another game which, in that case, it worked. But this game is different. If an in-game character says information must be kept secret, it's not intended to be public information, ie, it's NO loss to us if we don't hear about it. On the contrary, it makes the game that much more interesting, because I know there are people who have a very difficult decision about who they'll need to "betray" (which is an in-game betrayal in my perspective), and there's simply no reason for me to have animosity to anyone... I mean, it's the game!

#2... the "community" - who created this 'community'? In this game, it started out as a public thing, individuals joined in the game at any point, and decided to help each other out. Now the turn of events is mixing things up a bit... it's entirely an ingame plot device. It's not against any "arg rules" - there are none - at least, there are no official rules that aren't solely based on the style of a previous ARG. One ARG 'community' may be or work completely differently from another ARG community... or there may be more than one community (Urban Hunt)... who knows. that's the beauty of it. Smile

IMnotGarbage wrote:
All im trying to say is that i dont believe that the rest of us should be left out simply because someone was at the right place at the right time.

We're not being left out... it's part of the game. You still have as much interaction as the rest of the game. They now have a different kind of interaction, and frankly, I'm assuming a harder one, because they may have fragile choices to make in the future. For me, that's another aspect of the game. Just like downloading and specing about plotlines is an aspect of the game, finding out what the 'crew' of Melissa heard about or chose or were told not to reveal --- all part of the game, not lesser interaction, not being left out.

Quote:
The live calls were most likely chosen weeks in advance seeing as how the crew members where asked who and what was around them.

baseless... I'm sure we'll find out why they were asked those questions in the future. Right now, all we know is Melissa needed as much proof as possible that the person on the other end of the phone (yes, not pre-planned) was a 'real person', as well as 'one of her crew'. Individuals were not chosen in advance.

KrunkSplein wrote:
But what I cannot forgive is withholding information from the rest of the community.

Once again - withholding public information? Or withholding private information?
And what is this in regards to anyway? At this point, we all know everything there is to know. No one is holding back any information, public or private. Weephun divulged all the information he was told to keep private once the purpose of that information was made clear publicly anyway. It wasn't a matter of him knowing anything before us, because it wasn't public information in the first place. It was a plot event that by nature required confidentiality. Entirely in game. Weephun did no wrong, because he didn't withhold any game-advancing, public information, at all.

Quote:
For many people, the enjoyment of this ARG is running very thin. Going out to payphone after payphone for 40-someodd seconds of out-of-context dialogue just isn't cutting it for many of us.

What about those of us who are nowhere near an axon, and probably never will be? T'aint ruining thing for me...

Quote:
Then, there's a breakthrough - Melissa starts calling people live!...But wait - the people who GET the calls from Melissa may decide that they aren't going to share the information with the rest of the community!

Again - they were asked by an ingame character to keep confidential informaiton confidential. They weren't withholding information... they... never mind, I'm just repeating myself Razz

Quote:
See, therein lies a problem. This game exists solely because of the community. If there were no players willing to trod out across the country to answer phones, the game simply would not continue.

But by nature, there would be. Who wouldn't? if there were any near me, I know I would. So it's not really a valid argument there... I'd estimate a 99.9% chance that the game would exist, even if only 10 people in the country would answer axons, and even that's a slim chance only that many people would take part... this is a techie game Smile anything to get out of the cubicle at work or computer room at home and interact in a (semi)social world, with a purpose, is a bonus Smile

This game doesn't exist because of 'the community' - it exists because there are individuals who want to be a part of something bigger and active and immense and immersive. 'the community' is a player-built realm that is based on self-created rules, which may or may not change at any instant. Anyone clinging to those rules is asking to drown in the waves of change and unpredictability. (ooo nice metaphor Razz)

Quote:
Thus, no one person is so special and important that he/she should get information that the others do not. Keeping information to yourself defeats the entire purpose of the ARG, and does nothing but alienate the (already worn out) community.

See above... and previous posts... and more... and I just said my most recent post in another thread I wouldn't take part in this meta topic... man... I just can't keep my mouth shut Razz

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:21 am
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Vilnius
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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 		vpisteve and thebruce, you two have shared exactly what I would have, only much more eloquently. Razz

Both of you rule.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 1:35 am
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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KrunkSplein wrote:

But what I cannot forgive ...


It's phrases like that that baffle me so. We all have no idea what will happen next. You use strong words about something that happened in-game that would've likely happened even if weephun had told us! Have you thought about that? His plan to 'fool' the SP would've still 'worked,' as the trap was laid, and Melissa was alerted. Even if we had mobilized the Sparmy (hee) in response to weephun's plan, do you think we could've prevented her from being locked up? Truly?

Anyhow, vpisteve, you are much hearted by me. *mwah!*

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:06 am
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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 		Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
I have a bit of a different perspective for you, vpisteve. And since we are being meta, lets jump in with both feet. First, I think we should consider the following:

(in game)
We got into this to help Dana. Melissa wants to kill Dana. SP was trying to help Dana. Therefore, we should not be helping Melissa to harm the SP.
(/in game)

This has become essentially a role-playing game. I am in the midst of Star Wars:KOTOR at the moment, so I see a lot of parallels. You can choose to be light side or dark side or whatever...it is all a part of the game. Except with ilovebees, there are other people playing too. So your choice to go down the dark path has direct consequences on the other players, and how they will regard you as the game progresses. If I am playing KOTOR by myself and extort an old lady, my dark side points increase, and that is it. If I am playing CounterStrike with my friends and TK (team kill for those who are wondering...) because I think it is funny, then I might find it hard to get my buddies to keep coming over for a lan party.

Regarding the matter (and the game) at hand:

All of us in some way or another have been, 'til now, working together to unlock the memories of an AI in order to assist Dana in reclaiming her aunt's website. How had we been working together? Well, I am not inclined to attempt to pull apart broken images and puzzle out riddles so well. I am glad that so many people ARE, and that through that, they unlock Melissa's memories. Others of us have backgrounds in surveying and geography and found the axon hunt to be entertaining, and we have been helping to unlock memories in that way. All of us, working toward a common goal right up until last Tuesday.

Now, for all the talk of factions, and dogpiling, and whatnot...let me be clear. I have read a little bit of it here and there, but do not have 100% knowledge of what you are referring to. The first time an exclusionary faction was ever brought up...it was brought up by weephun. Following the contacts on Tuesday, weephun was trying to set up the contact list for the new crewmembers. He made certain to point out that he was only interested in "CONFIRMED" crew (his caps). In addition, he made it a point NOT to provide any information about his contact with Melissa, even though Dana specifically requested that those contacted "Dish." (See Commandment #7 of ARGs)

He says Melissa told him to keep the conversation confidential. That may be true, though many of the rest of the crew weren't told to do that. But lets say she did, and he had disobeyed. Now all of us would have known that he told her about the 404 page. Some may have attempted to contact the SP. Unfortunately, the logic breaks down here. There is still no way we would have known exactly what was going to happen on Friday. There would have been spec every which way. But on Friday at 9:00 PDT, we all would have seen that message on the 404 page ANYWAY and been surprised with the truth. We all would have roundly cursed weephun (in-game) anyway. And at least it would have helped Dana, the only known human character in the game, insofar as she had asked directly for the info. Later, he said that he had withheld information because of his concern over the backlash. He even went so far as to quote my initial comment, made after I had listened to his audio file. It was essentially this:

myself(prettymuch) wrote:
What do you do for an encore? Tell her who the assassin is, when she is flying back, and how to hack into air traffic control?


Note that this was a 100% in-game comment. I know Dana isn't real...and as for a backlash, duh?

Back to my thoughts on "going over to the dark side" or TKing in different games. The analogies are a bit strained here, but we should recognize the parallels. This started as a team. Someone decides to stop participating in the team. They start splintering the team. Whether it was to further the game or further their personal recognition in the game is up for debate. For cryin out loud, they didn't just extort the old lady, they told Darth Malak where she was, and then rang her doorbell when the Sith showed up to take her away. Reality Check: Is this a game? YES! Does it matter to me when I get my coffee tomorrow morning? NO! If he wants to play like that, that is fine. All power to him. But to say he didn't share information for fear of a backlash from gleefully selling out the entity that provided us with Perdita's Story? A backlash from happily betraying the intelligence that brought us trans-light whipped cream potential? There was gonna be a backlash. (an in-game backlash)

But, vpisteve, you act like it doesn't matter to the game. When this clearly IS the game. weephun's betrayal has been embraced by the PMs. Everyone should consider whether they agree or disagree with it. In the future, there may be an opportunity for him to do it again.

Make your decisions accordingly.

Do you give him the opportunity to do it again?
Do you provide him with any accurate information in the future?
Do you attempt to fix the damage he has done?
Do you attempt to inform M about Dana?
Those who look to increase their personal importance in the game may just do that. Maybe they can get a thank you on the front page when the only human character in this drama is met with excessive force. I personally see the issue with the SP as just that, but that is just my opinion. ….as this all is.

Are there people maybe more deserving of being crew than weephun? Well, again I say duh. but there are people more deserving of winning the lottery than the people who win every week. I don't see anyone obsessing over that.

How you play a game directly affects how others who are also playing the game treat you. If you withhold information and make decisions that may affect the course of the game in a way I don't like, why should I be happy about it? And to tell me to get over it misses the point. It is my responsibility as a player with the opposite goals to attempt to prevent you from doing that which I disagree with. As I said before, my working knowledge of my task is:

(in game)
We got into this to help Dana. Melissa wants to kill Dana. SP was trying to help Dana. Therefore, we should not be helping Melissa to harm the SP.
(/in game)

I commend any who made it this far. Embarassed

- Ariock

PS to SpaceBass: I just talked to Lars Ulrich and he informed me that:
Lars Ulrich wrote:
Sometimes a copy of a CD is the last thing you make.
I believe that punishing even minor transgressions
with shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.
I am relentless, and I have absolutely no conscience
when it comes to executing my fans.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:29 am
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SpaceBass
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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 		Re: Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
ariock wrote:
PS to SpaceBass: I just talked to Lars Ulrich and he informed me that:
Lars Ulrich wrote:
Sometimes a copy of a CD is the last thing you make.
I believe that punishing even minor transgressions
with shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.
I am relentless, and I have absolutely no conscience
when it comes to executing my fans.

Well, hell. NOW I know which side I'M on. Make your decisions accordingly.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:42 am
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: SF East Bay

 		Re: Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
SpaceBass wrote:
ariock wrote:
PS to SpaceBass: I just talked to Lars Ulrich and he informed me that:
Lars Ulrich wrote:
Sometimes a copy of a CD is the last thing you make.
I believe that punishing even minor transgressions
with shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.
I am relentless, and I have absolutely no conscience
when it comes to executing my fans.

Well, hell. NOW I know which side I'M on. Make your decisions accordingly.


LOOK OUT! IT'S LARS! He took down Napster and you're next!
Laughing
Aw, don't worry. He is slowing down in his old age. Just watch out for the drumsticks.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:08 am
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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 		Re: Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
Well thought out, ariock. There's still one main problem, though.

ariock wrote:
This has become essentially a role-playing game. I am in the midst of Star Wars:KOTOR at the moment, so I see a lot of parallels. You can choose to be light side or dark side or whatever...it is all a part of the game. Except with ilovebees, there are other people playing too. So your choice to go down the dark path has direct consequences on the other players, and how they will regard you as the game progresses.


This is purely conjecture at this point. I personally don't think it's any more a role-playing game now than it ever was. Nevertheless, if what you're saying is true, it's very problematic: At every 'moral crossroads' we may face in the story, some players will pick the "dark side", some will pick the "light side" and will act accordingly. It'll never be unanimous either way (we couldn't coordinate this even if we wanted to, as Unfiction isn't the only community playing). There will always be someone, somewhere, who does the "wrong" thing. So what then? Which direction will the story take? Which side will in fact have the direct impact on the story?

There can only be one answer: Ultimately, the story goes in whatever direction the PMs choose. No way are they obligated to make every piece of communication from players part of the game. It's their choice. Sure, they could do something such as setting up a vote like at the conclusion of the Beast that affects the ending, but the action of one "rogue player" is never going to jeopardize everything, because there will always be that one rogue player. See what I'm getting at?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:13 am
Last edited by vpisteve on Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

 		Unfiction isn't the centre of the game world, you don't know everyone that is playing, you can't control the players. That stands from a PM's point of view, as well as a players.

If they want a group decision, they have to do it in their game space (i.e. ilovebees.com) not ours (Unfiction forums)

From a meta point of view, which is the tag of this topic: the PMs are in control, they has the ability to veto any discussion a player appears to be making.

From an in-game point of view: jump up and down as much as you want about it.

[edit]change discussion to decision, since that's what I meant[/edit]

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:16 am
Last edited by colin on Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.

 		The decision to NOT give up SP was obviously going to be a
never ending one. Multiple verified crew were asked about her.
Any future verified crew would have been as well. Personal calls
from Melissa would have most likely contained the same kind of
inqueries.

If we didn't give her up now, we would be facing the same decision
again later. Exactly how long ago did we know that the Queen wanted
to put her back in the "glass coffin"?

Really people, it had to be done, get over it.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:59 am
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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 		Re: Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
vpisteve wrote:
Well thought out, ariock. There's still one main problem, though.

ariock wrote:
This has become essentially a role-playing game. I am in the midst of Star Wars:KOTOR at the moment, so I see a lot of parallels. You can choose to be light side or dark side or whatever...it is all a part of the game. Except with ilovebees, there are other people playing too. So your choice to go down the dark path has direct consequences on the other players, and how they will regard you as the game progresses.


This is purely conjecture at this point. I personally don't think it's any more a role-playing game now than it ever was. Nevertheless, if what you're saying is true, it's very problematic: At every 'moral crossroads' we may face in the story, some players will pick the "dark side", some will pick the "light side" and will act accordingly. It'll never be unanimous either way (we couldn't coordinate this even if we wanted to, as Unfiction isn't the only community playing). There will always be someone, somewhere, who does the "wrong" thing. So what then? Which direction will the story take? Which side will in fact have the direct impact on the story?

There can only be one answer: Ultimately, the story goes in whatever direction the PMs choose. No way are they obligated to make every piece of communication from players part of the game. It's their choice. Sure, they could do something such as setting up a vote like at the conclusion of the Beast that affects the ending, but the action of one "rogue player" is never going to jeopardize everything, because there will always be that one rogue player. See what I'm getting at?


It isn't a role playing game? Lieutenant weephun? Master Sergeant Chappy? Solving puzzles to help a non-existent person? Posting messages to her fake blog? Sending lies in emails to an AI called Sleeping Princess....Look, it ain't KOTOR or Neverwinter, but there are roles being played here. Characters and NPCs.

Regarding light or dark side. I think that is something that a few of the new crew decided to do. I doubt the PMs could have imagined such a heartlessly cruel action on the part of the players done so cheerfully. It works great for their story, but it gave me pause. I don't know that there always IS that one rogue player. I mean, who thinks like that? Jeez.

I am not worried about him jeopardizing the game. Certainly not that. But his actions did something. Others who disagree with his treatment of the SP, and I hope there are a lot of you, may have the opportunity to undo what he did. Some are going to try to release the SP by saying her name. What if he is provided with some way of preventing that by Melissa? Lets say krystyn is planning on trying to free the SP by saying her name when Melissa calls her Tuesday. She gave weephun her cell phone number. He wants to prevent her from getting that call, so he calls her cell phone at the appointed time. Would that be all part of the game?

AngriBuddhist:

Pure Spec there. Did it have to be done? How do you KNOW that? It may have been done anyway. How is it that you don't find it
CREEPY

In any case, you are arguing both sides. If it meant nothing, then there was no reason for him to keep it secret from Dana and the rest of us, right? It is only if it means SOMETHING that keeping it secret matters.

My problem with this is the unnecessary secrecy AND the creepiness of ratting out the SP.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:17 am
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SpaceBass
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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 		Re: Thoughts of a Game Enthusiast
vpisteve wrote:
There can only be one answer: Ultimately, the story goes in whatever direction the PMs choose. No way are they obligated to make every piece of communication from players part of the game. It's their choice. Sure, they could set up a vote like at the end of the Beast that affects the ending, but the action of one "rogue player" is never going to jeopardize everything, because there will always be that one rogue player. See what I'm getting at?


This is obviously the crux of the matter. If we accept this point as given, that the only ones in control of the game itself are the PMs, then what actions could we possibly take to support or destroy the game itself? If we step back from our suspension of disbelief for the moment and realize that nothing we do has a true effect on the game that is not ordained by those beyond our influence, then Ariock's point about sharing information may be seen in a different light.

If it does not truly matter one way or another to the game, shall we not then evaluate how it matters in another important context - the community in which we choose to participate outside of, but in conjunction with, that game? That answer must also be decided by the individual for him or herself, though based on what he or she would like to realize from being a part of the community, rather than based on what effect it could have on the game's outcome.

Regardless of whether knowing or not knowing one thing or another would have helped or hindered any characters in-game, the most important thing to the hivemind is information. It is the lifeblood of a community such as this and I believe this touches on what Eric Burns was getting at in his essay as well (although I don't by any means think one small incident in a single game signals the end of the collective detective as a whole). In this kind of endeavor, there is no such thing as too much knowledge but there certainly is a failing point in not enough.

In this case, were the Sleeping Princess pre-destined to be locked up, how would it have harmed the game itself for us as a community to know ahead of time of that danger, whether or not we could have, or indeed would have, done anything to stop it? If the community as an entity asks this question of itself, it may have an entirely different answer than an individual in the community questioning himself. And the importance of that question to the individual is likely to be much higher than it is when posed to the community.

To me, the question here was not whether or not a single person was helping one game character or another, especially if we remember that the game must proceed apace with or without us, but rather "If I disobey this instruction to keep this secret, how will it affect me personally?" If the question for weephun were thus, then the answer in-game might be that he could lose Melissa's trust and, in so doing, his status as a crewmember (assuming she somehow found out what he had done, and that in an in-game fashion as well, hopefully). Now that would be a painful decision indeed and one that I would challenge anyone to make differently than he did without at least some measure of hesitation.

But if that question were posed entirely out-of-game and in the community context as stated above, then the reverse decision might seem the more likely to be made. From a strictly meta viewpoint, it should always be better to share than to withhold.

These games blur that line and for a reason. And that's exactly what makes something like this so damn hard as well as so damn fun.

In the long run, it makes no difference to the community as a whole one way or another; we will continue to seek the truth, to behold the truth, and in the end the truth will be revealed. In the short run, the difference to the community is again negligible if we agree that we cannot truly affect the outcome of the game. In both the short and the long run, however, the difference to the individual is a horse of an altogether different color. And with no absolute guarantees that the individual's actions within the community won't affect the individual's response from the game, the question becomes harder by orders of magnitude.

I do not believe that any actions within the game taken by an individual or by the community as a whole can have a fundamental effect on the direction of the game. I do believe that the actions we take outside of the game can have a fundamental effect on how we interact as individuals and as a community. These are two wholly different perspectives that I do not think must be mutually exclusive, so long as we are able to preserve the segregation between in-game and out-of-game spaces.

I do not think it fair to hold weephun personally responsible for the Sleeping Princess's plight, since that outcome was ultimately up to the PMs. I do think the question of whether or not he should have let the community in on the secret was much harder for him than it may seem to those of us who weren't in his position. I honestly cannot say what decision I would have made, were I in his shoes.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:44 am
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ariock
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: SF East Bay

 		As if I haven't said enough...
colin wrote:
Unfiction isn't the centre of the game world, you don't know everyone that is playing, you can't control the players. That stands from a PM's point of view, as well as a players.

If they want a group discussion, they have to do it in their game space (i.e. ilovebees.com) not ours (Unfiction forums)

From a meta point of view, which is the tag of this topic: the PMs are in control, they has the ability to veto any discussion a player appears to be making.

From an in-game point of view: jump up and down as much as you want about it.


I find it unfortunate how dismissive you are.

Aren't all of the crew on unfiction? at one time or another? And who said they needed to be controlled? Who said there needed to be a group discussion? The PMs have to ability to veto or assimilate any discussion a player appears to be making, ie weephuns actions.

And jumping up and down, eh? clear up the misconceptions/misrepresentations above, and we can discuss who is jumping up and down.

You ignore the fact that we have some small effect on the outcome. You assume the story is set and unchangable. Consider that it might not be. Read Perdita's story and particularly how SP ends it. She didn't want it to be sad, but it ended up that way.

Who do you want helping to write that ending? Obviously not me, since I am long winded. I know what you are thinking, "We have no input. They will choose whomever they want. Just give up. Sleeeep. Sleeeeeeeep." Obviously that is true, but I will try.

And if that is just stamping my feet, then so be it. But if it isn't, and I can convince others to help point it in a better direction, then I will have done something I feel good about and you will have just let this part of the game pass you by.
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When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:44 am
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