Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
 
The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 3:03 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)
View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[QUESTION] Hidden voice behind Durga's...
View previous topicView next topic
Page 4 of 5 [63 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

SuperJerms wrote:
The only dissenting idea I can come up with there is the following question: Why would ONI kidnap a six-year-old girl and make her an AI? <snip>

From a psychology standpoint, Piagetian theory would tell us that a six year old brain would be at a tremendous disadvantage to a more developed brain. <snip>

That is, you want a donor who is a quick thinker, makes sound decisions, sees hidden potentials, and is versed in multiple intelligences. Again, a six year old is at a tremendous disadvantage to an older donor. If nothing else, a six-year-old has had less contact with the world, less opportunity to learn new things, less stimulation overall, and will be less developed from a Piagetian standpoint.


True, from a Piagetian standpoint.

However, a six-year-old's brain is designed to absorb information and assimilate extraordinarily quickly. A six-year-old brain is forming connections, cataloguing information, reasoning inductively, etc. at a mind-blowing rate.

Everything I am going to say is based only on my [SPEC] because I haven't read the books, so I don't know that much about the creation of AIs.

However, I assume that there is some programming that goes on. AIs are given information, yes? They're still programs, don't they have databases of knowledge? From Melissa's monologue, it appears that she has access to a database of most of human literature. So for a good AI, you don't need experience for the knowledge it gives, but for the reasoning/decision-making abilities. But imagine if you combined a six-year-old's abilities to rapidly assimilate knowledge, to form connections, and categorize, etc. with a library of the best of humanity's knowledge?

Also, computer programs can reason and use logic. You can use computer programs to check human logic. You could theoretically, even now, create a computer to weigh options in a decision and do a thorough cost-benefit analysis.

So, while programming the AI, couldn't they program in logical reasoning ability that wasn't there? I would think the ability to rapidly assimilate information and categorize it would be more important. AIs are good at languages, yes? They analyze alien languages, don't they? The SP says she's "good with languages."

One of the things that young brains are especially focused on is learning language. The way you learn your first language, your native tongue, is different and more complete, than the way you learn any other languages, no matter how young you are when you learn the rest of them. At six, while acquisition of the first language is nearly complete, I think (but I haven't checked it) that the brain still isn't *completely* out of first-language-learning mode. So, there's a chance that a younger brain would make an extremely capable AI.

But, again, this is just my un-halo-informed [SPEC].

HitsHerMark wrote:
Cortana seems female to me.

So, what's up with that?

Most AI's appear to be female it seems...


There could be good reasons why in general female brains are better candidates (and no guys, I'm not about to say we're smarter).

Please remember that what I'm talking about here are generalizations, and I'm not trying to suggest that men are like computers or somehow "less human" seeming than women, just that perhaps the type of things in which most male brains excel are those that might be easier to recreate in a program. (Perhaps that's why computers work the way they do -- in the development of computers, most of the developers have been male, yes?)

In 95% of cases, female brains have symmetrical cortexes. Research suggests, though has not conclusively proven, that females have more dendritic connections between neurons, although men have more neurons. Women's corpus collosi are larger, which means they can transfer data between hemispheres more quickly and have greater access to both sides. For men, brain activity for language is generally greatly predominant in the dominant hemisphere, whereas for women, both hemispheres are more equally involved.

We don't definitely know what any of this means, but it does suggest that women have more versatility in how they use and learn language, and (as I mentioned) that they're able to access both hemispheres better and transfer data more quickly. Women usually score higher on language sections of standardized tests -- the more difficult the verbal task, the more global the neural participation required.

Testosterone during fetal life actually inhibits vocabulary development: the greater the prenatal testosterone level, the smaller the child's vocabulary at 18 and again at 24 months.

In studies of perception, it appears that women's perceptive skills are oriented to quick (think "intuitive") reads of situations and people. They synthesize conclusions about emotion and intent of others from subtle contextual clues. They more readily empathize and are more likely to see other sides of an argument.

Men focus first on minute detail, and operate most easily with a certain detachment. They construct rules-based analyses of the natural world, inanimate objects and events.

But it seems to me that rules-based analyses, are easier to program than the intuitive contextual reads at which women are generally better. After all, isn't that mostly what programming is about: sets of rules?

So perhaps, (again: in general -- I'm not trying to say that there aren't intuitive men out there) the female brain supplies things that are harder to recreate programmatically?

Also, and this both scientifically and Halo-wise is far off into the speculative ether, but women generally have a larger deep limbic system than men. This is probably why women seem more "in touch" with their feelings (or at least, combined with the linguistic adaptability, why they are often better able to express them). (Sense of smell and oxytocin production may also be involved in this.) It suggests an increased ability to bond/empathize/feel connected with others.

The AIs with which I am familiar have all seemed fairly attached to their crews, which seems unusual for an electronically created being. Perhaps the use of predominantly female brains helps counteract the detachment one might expect from and AI, allowing them to seem "more human" and bond better with the people they work with.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:52 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
AlexofMaceidon
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 103

Another thing for you Phaedra, if less scientific then what you were talking about (great job by the way, I plan on being a pschology major, and all of that information was really cool), traditionally ships are considered female. Why not have a female avatar if the ship is female?
_________________
"We build a room, put up streamers and keep our fingers crossed. When you guys show up, you bring life with you. It was amazing to watch. Getting the chance to play with people smarter than I am is my favorite part." -Elan Lee

I still love bees!


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:15 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Astald
Unfettered

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
Location: Just outside of Pittsburgh (Go Steelers!)

And one more addition to why most AI's are probably female, straight from the Phase 3 Operator's Monologue:
Melissa wrote:
"A pleasing voice is the single most important component to a UI that will engender trust and confidence in a ship's crew."

I would consider females to usually have a more pleasing voice than males, but maybe that is just me.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:19 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Son of a Beep
Boot

Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 23
Location: WI

Other people may have said this already but It's my opinion that Yasmine's intelligence pegged her for the Spartan 2 program. Just like how J2 moved Jan around whenever people started sniffing around about how "gifted" she was. Jan avoided recruitment, but Yasmine's family had no way of protecting her, so when the chance came along UNSC swapped her with the flash clone, which deteriorated, and Yasmine became part of the S2 program.
Since there was such a high failure rate for spartan 2s, it's not unlikely to believe that either her body was mutilated from augments/training, or she may have become handicapped to where her only method of further assisting in the war effort was by donating her brain to becoming an AI.

I don't know what to think of the recordings of Ronnie, though. Connected with the Sleeping Princess somehow, they'll reveal I'm sure.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:32 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
drseuss90
Decorated

Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 277
Location: California

Son of a Beep wrote:
Other people may have said this already but It's my opinion that Yasmine's intelligence pegged her for the Spartan 2 program. Just like how J2 moved Jan around whenever people started sniffing around about how "gifted" she was. Jan avoided recruitment, but Yasmine's family had no way of protecting her, so when the chance came along UNSC swapped her with the flash clone, which deteriorated, and Yasmine became part of the S2 program.
Since there was such a high failure rate for spartan 2s, it's not unlikely to believe that either her body was mutilated from augments/training, or she may have become handicapped to where her only method of further assisting in the war effort was by donating her brain to becoming an AI.

I don't know what to think of the recordings of Ronnie, though. Connected with the Sleeping Princess somehow, they'll reveal I'm sure.



Hey guys this is my first post, but i have been following things since the begining. I just wanted to add to the prevoius quote. I compleatly agree. To quote the "Fall of Reach", (pages 203 - 231) "If the truth ever came to light - abducted children, replaced by fast-grown clones; the risky, experimental surgeries and biochemical augmentations - public opinion would turn against the SPARTAN project overnight." That right there is proof that she was abducted and replaced with a flash clone. That is how the government got subjects to be in the SPARTAN project.

Another quote I found interesting in the book about the AIs is the following. "So-called dumb AIs were engineered to function only where misleading; within set limits of their dynamic memory processing matrix. They were brilliant within their fields of expertise, but were lacking in "creativity." Deja, for example, was a "dumb" AI - incredibly useful, but limited. Smart AIs like Cortana, however, had no limits on their dynamic memory processor matrix. Knowledge and creativity could grow unchecked. She would pay the price for her genius, however. Such growth eventually led to self-interference. Cortana would one day literally start thinking too much at the expense of her normal functions.... Cortana would effectively "die" after an operational life of seven years."
That quote is from page 235. Since there are two kinds of AIs. Smart vs Dumb. Witch is Mel? And obviously Durga is a Smart AI. I discovered all this by accident while reading the book tonight and I had to post it. Let me know what you all think. Hopefully if it hasn't been posted before it could spark some good speculation. I know its got me thinking.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:08 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
jellyfish_green
Veteran


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Inner Colony of Eire

Son of a Beep wrote:
Since there was such a high failure rate for spartan 2s, it's not unlikely to believe that either her body was mutilated from augments/training, or she may have become handicapped to where her only method of further assisting in the war effort was by donating her brain to becoming an AI.

That makes sense to me - the kidnapping and flash clone of Yasmine MUST be the marks of the Spartan II program, not an AI prep program, but if she was killed in the augmentation process, the Navy could get some further use out of her by scanning the brain for use in an AI.

So the humanitarian link here might be that [spec] one of our goals is to re-unite Kamal with the personality of his sister, embodied in the SP. I don't think it's the main Truth, though.

(edit - having read the REST of the thread, just consider me another supporter for this spec.)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 3:51 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Centipede
Unfettered


Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 439
Location: Bronx, NY

vector wrote:
I compleatly agree with you camshaft, ofcourse i am one of those who was trying to get people to look at that possability. The reason why i belive that she was taken specificaly for a new AI program is simple. If you want a better AI why would you train it as a Spartan first? there would be no bonus, you might as well build the AI the old fashioned way. The Spartans are trained and designed to be Spartans. if you want a better AI you take a young brain and you train it and modify it to be the best AI that it can be.


The Spartans are also designed to be able to house and interface with AI's to increase their battlefield capabilities. Wouldn't an AI that had recieved SPARTAN training be better for that purpose? Plus, the SPARTANs were trained in problem solving and cognitive thinking. That would also be a boon for a Naval AI.

Right now I believe that Melissa is Durga, but I still think the SP is a seperate entity entirely.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:14 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
daboking
Unfettered


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 486
Location: 2nd star to the right

Speaking of why women are mainly used for A.I. cores... well, it is a fact that men are out of their right minds! Both left and right hemispheres cover different aspects, and generally, men tend to use the left side much more while women tend to use the left side AND right side both without hesitation. I, as a man, know the beginning of wisdom is to realize I am handicapped mentally compared to women. Razz
(Daboking starts grasping at imaginary butterflies and hephalumps floating over his head)
_________________
meedley meedley meedley meedley meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:25 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Epic1980
Veteran


Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 140
Location: MO, USA

Too many people to quote, but here's my spec:

First off, I don't believe Jan or Ysamine would have been recruited for the Spartan-II program. At least not the same one the MC was involved in. The age difference is to great. I do believe they were recruited, let's just call it S-III.

Second, not that it's not possible, but we have never seen anything that says that people are recruited (taken) to be made into a AI. We know they use brains of recently deceased and recently the use of cloned human brains (Cortana). This gives further strength to Ysamine being taken for a Spartan project.

And for whoever said Rani might be the SP or Durga, come on... Durga is monitoring Rani, she's not an AI.

avoided another rant because there was no point... ah well
_________________
"Dude," said Puppetmaster 2, "it's a hurricane. Put the phone down."

PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:44 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Son of a Beep
Boot

Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 23
Location: WI

Epic1980 wrote:

First off, I don't believe Jan or Ysamine would have been recruited for the Spartan-II program. At least not the same one the MC was involved in. The age difference is to great. I do believe they were recruited, let's just call it S-III.
And for whoever said Rani might be the SP or Durga, come on... Durga is monitoring Rani, she's not an AI.



When is yasmine's age given? and who's to say there weren't different waves of recruits coming in? After all, if J2 had to move several times to avoid recruiters for Jan, There wasn't just one time where they were taking kids.

Besides that, at the time of the recordings, Jan is still avoiding the Spartan II program. Yasmine had been taken some time ago, according to Kamal.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:02 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
DM
Decorated


Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 225
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Ladies and gentlemen, I am on it.

I'll try to get the voice out and put the clip up here for you to hear for yourselves. Don't know why I didn't think of doing it sooner.

Will post with updates soon.

UPDATE:
Took the whole sound file apart, there's an echo of Durga (Only Durga) the whole way through the file, but it doesn't sound like Durga. It is different, almost younger. But not so young as the SP. POSSIBLY Melissa, but I can't really tell.
_________________
"Sometimes the right thing to do, isn't the good thing to do."
-Diomades


PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:52 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Malrog
Decorated


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 164
Location: England, UK

DM wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I am on it.

I'll try to get the voice out and put the clip up here for you to hear for yourselves. Don't know why I didn't think of doing it sooner.

Will post with updates soon.

UPDATE:
Took the whole sound file apart, there's an echo of Durga (Only Durga) the whole way through the file, but it doesn't sound like Durga. It is different, almost younger. But not so young as the SP. POSSIBLY Melissa, but I can't really tell.


DM, I'm assuming that's the sleep_spying wav that you're talking about? Can you have a look at the you_owe_me wav file please, for the reasons I give earlier in this thread. daboking said that he might have a look at it, but I fear the initial reason for this thread has been somewhat swamped by the rampant OT spec. Rolling Eyes

I'd really appreciate it - thanks Smile

- Malrog
_________________
Quote:
Sofia: A payphone?
Kamal: Ancient piece of crappy hardware, half of them wouldn't even take incoming calls, no GPS...


PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:02 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
SuperJerms
Unfettered


Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 537
Location: indiana

Well, that pretty much seals the deal.
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
She_died.wav has Jersey talking about Yasmine, and Durga starts falling apart. Sounds like a little girl in the background, too.

_________________
"If we could make your toaster print something we would." - Jordan Weisman

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:31 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
 ICQ Number 
 Back to top 
skyhawk0000
Veteran


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 119
Location: DFW, Tx.. The Midcities

and Another_Name finishes it off..

how does the younger-durga echo from sleep_spying and
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
yasmine?
voice from Another_name compare to the SP now that there might be a little more the work with?
_________________
Nothing wrong, just a stutter of lag once in a while.
Arete


PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:06 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
DM
Decorated


Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 225
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Okay, now this is weird.

First, Malrog, rermoved the vocals from you_owe_me. I can make out a few parts, something is said about "transplants" early in the file, then later something is said about "on this day". Otherwise it's quite hard to make out. Possibly some sort of political speech, that is what it gives me the impression of. I have added an attachment of it below.

Now, the new Wave files where we find out about Durga. I tried seperating the vocals, but they are 'taped together' in a sense. Durga is only one voice to the program. So I did a few changes, and THINK there are actually 3 voices there, but could not get a clear clipping of the 3rd, so it could just be when the young girl's voice is playing with Durga's. I tried my best to get a point where only the young girl could be heard and put it against one of the recordings of the sleeping princess. Now...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The voices aren't exactly the same, but they are far more alike than they are not. I'd say that they are 95% alike from what I hear and what this program is telling me. I DO NOT DOUBT that young voice is the voice of the Sleeping Princess.


Another interesting but far less important fact is the music in the background. It is easy to hear just normally, but with the vocals removed it is even easier. When Durga 'goes downward', the music slows down. But then, at certain parts, it almost goes over-speed as if whatever is playing it is angry or powerful. Given the way Durga is during this, I think this takes place after the event at the cemetery.
_________________
"Sometimes the right thing to do, isn't the good thing to do."
-Diomades


PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:40 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 4 of 5 [63 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group