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[Halo 2] Most overrated game ever
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water10
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Quote:
Daeath of PC gaming? No way! Just consider. D3 ported to XB 6 months after the PC release. They cut out quite a bit of the game simply to 'clean up' the game. No hardware problems or anything with those terrifying dead-ends, pant-filling sudden monster spawns or atmospheric diary entries. id just wanted to make the game faster to play through, and (I've played both versions, so believe me) cut out the scary bit. To the console gamers, who represent a majority, Thief 3 with the Cradle is still scarier than DOOM 3 with a retelling.
Point two. Half-Life 2 (please just believe me and buy it) is THE best shooter - no, the best game - I've ever played. And I've played most of them. It is coming to XB... but without Steam. I know the 56k players hated Steam, and I do agree that VALVe were being a bit paranoid and should have stripped out the activation, but the idea behind Steam is actually a good one. You can buy and download the game instantly with an entire back catalogue of games, and the money goes straight to the people who deserve it - the developers. Publishers are completely removed from the eqaution! Updates are delivered instantly and without hassle. You start up the game, it spends two minutes downloading, and you have a fixed game. No more faffing about with patches. The Lost Coast and HDR are shipping in the summer, again effortlessly, and completely free to all players. Whether your PC can handle it is another matter, but the point remains. Aftermath is next up after that, which will quiet the nutters who didn't like the ending. And don't forget DoD: Source. And the modding capabilities. And HL2: Deathmatch. And instant informative news every friday without having to trawl through websites and newsgroups. The list continues. Nothing on the console could ever live up to that kind of innovation. It is simply impossible.
Death to PC gaming? No way!

You're comparing Doom3 and HL2 to current gen consoles. PC's are far ahead, there's just no comparison! Even when the xbox was released, back in 2001, it was not more powerful than high-end PC's! A modified 733mhz Celeron with 64mb for RAM was not top of the line!

With next-gen, for the first time, consoles are more powerful than current high-end PC's. IT IS A BIG DEAL! Now, I won't dare and say that PC gaming will die a horrible death. But consoles are making a huge progress! HD resolutions plus AA standard, means comparable picture quality! Much better hardware and better online systems! Even FPS's that were considered PC territory are successful on consoles now.

Having said that, there are some areas that PC are still king and I don't see consoles taking over: Strategy games and Modding scene. Strategy games like Age of Empires and Starcraft are just better on PC's. But the coolest part of PC gaming is how easily the community can modify PC games, adding pretty cool content, like maps, characters, race tracks, etc. Nothing come close on consoles! MS is taking the first step with microtransactions on Live, but it's still soooo limited to what people do on PC games ... I remember seeing a Simpsons version of the first Doom! Laughing

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Point 3. Upgrade capabilities. With new processors and gfx cards coming out monthly, PCs quickly overtake consoles in specs.

True, but we all know that a single GPU costs more than the whole console ... Besides, I've read predictions that it may take 1 or 2 years for PC's to overtake!!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:48 pm
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ubercado
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Not nessarily...

With the new dual core processors comming out, I belive, later this year, the PC will over take the consoles again in really short time. Also, with the release of XP 64, the developers will have a whole new sandbox to play in. And both of the gpu's in both consoles will be in the PC market by early to late summer '06.

I'm not saying that it will happen over night but, certianly by the time the PS3 hits the market.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:20 pm
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poorsod
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water10 wrote:

You're comparing Doom3 and HL2 to current gen consoles.
They are being/have been ported to current-gen consoles! That means the two versions should be compared!

water10 wrote:

With next-gen, for the first time, consoles are more powerful than current high-end PC's. IT IS A BIG DEAL!


The point is that PC will take back the lost territory within a matter of months.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:27 pm
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water10
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Quote:
Not nessarily...

With the new dual core processors comming out, I belive, later this year, the PC will over take the consoles again in really short time. Also, with the release of XP 64, the developers will have a whole new sandbox to play in. And both of the gpu's in both consoles will be in the PC market by early to late summer '06.

Quote:
The point is that PC will take back the lost territory within a matter of months.

Well, 360 has triple-core ... I know it's PPC, but still. And for the GPU, yes, PC's will catch up for an unreal amount of money! And to think the Xbox was released with a "geforce3.5" ...

But I agree, I don't think it'll take more than 6 months. Still, the fact remains that, for the first time, consoles are more powerful than high-end pc's at the time of their releases! It's a big difference!

Besides, let's not forget that a console doesn't have to deal with as many tasks as PC's, things like anti-virus, firewalls, web-browsers and useless windows services!! Plus, games are designed to fixed hardware, so they can optimize the game.

I'm still a PC gamer (though not as much as I used to be), but it's clear to me that consoles are as close to PC's as they ever were, coming next-gen!

Quote:
They are being/have been ported to current-gen consoles! That means the two versions should be compared!

True, but the whole discussion about death of PC gaming was about next-gen, not current gen, making this comparison kinda useless ...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:40 pm
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hamatoyoshi
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Ubercado wrote:
Not nessarily...

With the new dual core processors comming out, I belive, later this year, the PC will over take the consoles again in really short time. Also, with the release of XP 64, the developers will have a whole new sandbox to play in. And both of the gpu's in both consoles will be in the PC market by early to late summer '06.

I'm not saying that it will happen over night but, certianly by the time the PS3 hits the market.


I think the major concern here is how many consumers are really looking to get new PCs? There just isn't an application or utility that requires that processing power which would get home users to upgrade.

I know individuals whose careers/businesses center around their home computers, yet still run on around 700MHz processors and will be doing so for the foreseeable future.

My home machine was a 333MHz machine up until two years ago, at which point I bought a cheap 2GHz machine and only did so because the 333 machine died.

The only thing my home computer can't do adequately is run a lot of graphically intensive games, and I don't see a huge base of users upgrading for that alone.

Unless the future-Windows GUI goes insane and needs a special GPU to run, I just don't see what motivation the average user has to upgrade (processor or video card) at this point of time. Another GHz or two isn't going to help me run Microsoft Word appreciably faster, surf the web any faster, or play my mp3's any faster.



Of course the plus-side of the likely need not to focus on graphics alone in the future could be some actual innovation in gameplay and focus on story.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:59 pm
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SuperJerms
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water10 wrote:
Quote:
They are being/have been ported to current-gen consoles! That means the two versions should be compared!

True, but the whole discussion about death of PC gaming was about next-gen, not current gen, making this comparison kinda useless ...


I wanted to point out that GameSpy wrote the same article when the XBox was first made. That article was about the current gen. Obviously it hasn't happened, but the article had/has some big merit.


Obviously, declaring the death of anything is more about getting people to read your article than the reality of the situation. That said, consoles are shaking stuff up for PC gaming. There are both valid benefits and drawbacks for both PC's and consoles. Keyboard/Mouse is different than joystick, any way you cut it.

The point made earlier is very valid about gaming at 10 feet vs. gaming at 2 feet away from the screen. More robust input is an important advantage to PC's, especially with RTS games. Communicatively speaking, PC's foster an immediately socialfugal communication space (they aren't very good for multiple people in the room). Consoles create a more sociopetal environment. Academics point out that sociopetal environments are inferior for group interaction in comparison to socialfugal ones. The question is whether you want to play alone over the net, or with others in the same room?

Also, PC's feature more computer-mediated communication than consoles. While UF is a great example of a strong community thriving online (so much so that I'm writing my synthesis paper for my M.A. on it), most people are uncomfortable communicating online. XBox Live! is doing a lot to make it easier, but let's face it...the majority of the world is not as ready as we early adapters are.

Live! is an example of consoles invading the PC space...PC's have featured networked gaming pretty much as early as the games existed, and consoles have only made strides in that area because of Live! Another potentially big feature on the next generation is voice recognition. I'm sure none of us expect it to work as well as it should...but in ten years, the keyboard advantage offered by PC's could easily be supplanted by voice recognition on consoles.


I think I agree then, that PC's are going to become more and more niche as far as games are concerned. It comes down to where the market is. In simple economics, consoles win: $500 vs $2000. In ease of use, consoles obviously win. In games not being half-finished and patched later, consoles win (for now).

The only forseeable advantage PC's will offer is expandability. Here's the problem with that...upgrading your PC leads to more costs and more bugs. Games don't have fatal errors very often on consoles, but they do all the time on PC's. After all, users could have any combination of (possibly conflicting) hardware set-ups that game designers can't always plan ahead for. The only way to avoid that problem is to have everyone with the exact same hardware set-up...consoles win again. Another thing that happens with PC's is a game that has horrible performance because of said errors or because of dated hardware. Users may or may not know why their new game has 5 fps, whether it is their fault or not. Consoles, again, don't really have that problem. If a game is choppy, either the developer knew it would be when he released it to market, or your console is broken.

Besides, we are past the point where hardware is bottlenecking performance. This isn't the marked difference between Atari, NES, Genesis, and Turbo Graphix. The new bottleneck is getting a company that is committed enough to creativity and quality to make a good game, and the spiraling costs of development--not how many teraflops of FPC's your rig can handle.

Finally, I don't know about you, but I'm sick of ever having to troubleshoot my PC just to get my game on. I'm sick of getting pwned online because it's 1000x easier to hack games or because some 12 year old's daddy bought him the latest hardware and he has a faster connection than I do. I'm sick of having to continuously update hardware and software so that things don't conflict, I'm sick having to search for game patches before I play a PC game.

I've never once had to contain my excitement about a console game until after I looked at the suggested system requirements label on the box. I have talked to Bioware tech support who told me my PC game was useless because they refused to look into any user problems unless the user had either an NVIDIA or ATI card. I've never had to run 3dMark on my Xbox, or defrag my PS2 to improve performance. I've never had to hassle with games that were broken by copy-protection, and I can borrow games from friends because there is no cursed Digital Rights Management.

Is this even a valid discussion? Consoles--cheaper, easier, and they just friggin' work!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:07 pm
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hamatoyoshi
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SuperJerms wrote:
Is this even a valid discussion? Consoles--cheaper, easier, and they just friggin' work!


Good analysis, hit all the major points, nice work.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:31 pm
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water10
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Live! is an example of consoles invading the PC space...PC's have featured networked gaming pretty much as early as the games existed, and consoles have only made strides in that area because of Live!

If you think about it, Live is the only new thing consoles brought to the table. Yes, there were consoles online before. But none were as user-friendly as Live. And I think Live will be MUCH better next-gen! Just take PGR3! They'll have Gotham TV! You'll be able to watch others racing! You'll be able to watch the final race of that (official or not) league! I honestly hope there'll be more co-op games that you can play with 6-8 guys online on a campaign mode! Gauntlet is coming with a 4-player co-op online and that's for Xbox!! Games are a lot more fun when played co-op and I hope developers realize this and start making more games like this! My dream would be 10-player X-Men or 11vs11 soccer match!!! Drool

Quote:
Besides, we are past the point where hardware is bottlenecking performance.

I don't totally agree with this. I think next-gen will certainly be a step ahead! No jaggies = Me happy!! But I agree that software is becoming more determinant.

Quote:
I'm sick of getting pwned online because it's 1000x easier to hack games or because some 12 year old's daddy bought him the latest hardware and he has a faster connection than I do.

You make a good point about PC's being easier to hack! But on the other hand, this makes the whole modding scene possible! The sheer number of available mods for PC games is just plain incredible! Oh, and I agree you're rarely competing against someone on the same ground. It all depends if he has a better mouse/KB or video card! That's one of the reasons I was sooooo against the mouse/KB adapter for xbox! But that's another discussion ....

Quote:
Is this even a valid discussion? Consoles--cheaper, easier, and they just friggin' work!

Add to that, the no-jaggies/HD resolution and Consoles are closer than ever to PC's!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:22 pm
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Ranger D
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The point trying to be made here is that some games just won't work on a console. Most of the time, it's due to the the type of interface. Imagine playing Warcraft 3 (or any way more complex RTS game) with a console controller. I have yet to see a console controller give me the presicion and finess with which I get using a mouse. The fact of the matter is that you can't cram every video game into using a 10 button 2 thumbstick handheld controller.

I have yet to see a handheld controller give me the precision and control of a mouse and the informational bandwidth of a keyboard. Some types of games have specific core game elements that just can't be be limited by an informationally low bandwidth device like a controller. There is a reason the keyboard is the standard interface device for computers. It is probably the fastest way to communicate in a written language. It also gives you...crap how many keys are on this keyboard? Over one hundred? How do you input written data using a controller? You scroll through the alphabet using up and down arrows and then enter each letter/character in One. At. A. Time. Now, voice communication may remove the need for written communication in some games. FPS games are a prime example because you only need a single thread of information sharing. Commander to troops, "Attack this target", "Yes sir." Or collective to collective, "I'm doing this here, etc." This doesn't work too well when you need to monitor multiple threads of info and conversation. It cannot replace the keyboard yet. In most MMOs you are keeping track of at least 3 threads of conversation, usually more (local chat, party chat, guild chat, private tells, etc.). How can you do that with just voice? Also, read this article here, then tell me you want voice chat in everygame. If you are reading this here on unfiction, then you obviously have some understanding of immersion. I certainly don't want to hear a female avatar sound like the burly truck driver.

One more thing. The Xbox was released in 2001. Exactly 4 years ago iirc. The PS2 and GameCube dropped in 2000. These consoles are hitting almost FIVE years old. Would you play Doom 3 on a five year old PC? Hell no. PC gamers live not on the cutting edge, but on the bleeding edge. This is where the innovation takes place. This latest round of game consoles are the first to really "catch up" with PC gaming. But 6 months after the console releases, the PC gaming industry will have faster cards out. And games you can only play on a PC. You like high-def gaming? Try playing Half-Life 2 on a GeForce 6800 Ultra SLI box with a gorgeous 23 inch Apple Cinema Display at 1920x1200 and you will shit your pants. And you can do that NOW. Not by this Christmas or a year from now. (technically you could've done that last December) Of course it's more expensive, but that's the price you pay for living on the bleeding edge and doing things few have done before.

The PC is not going away for gaming, and neither are consoles. Maybe they will become one, but there are lots of obstacles in that path.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:57 pm
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water10
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Quote:
How can you do that with just voice? Also, read this article here, then tell me you want voice chat in everygame. I certainly don't want to hear a female avatar sound like a burly truck driver.

True, but it should be an option. Maybe on groups only. Most of my mmorpg friends use Teamspeak now. It wasn't as common when I used to play 1 year ago, but it's becoming standard now. It helps a lot to coordinate attacks!

Quote:
One more thing. The Xbox was released in 2001. Exactly 4 years ago iirc. The PS2 and GameCube dropped in 2000. These consoles are hitting almost FIVE years old. Would you play Doom 3 on a five year old PC? Hell no. PC gamers live not on the cutting edge, but on the bleeding edge. This is where the innovation takes place. This latest round of game consoles are the first to really "catch up" with PC gaming.

I insist. When the xbox was released, there was already hardware more advanced on the market! There were CPU's at 1.8-2Ghz available at that time! So, for the first time, consoles will be more powerful than PC's at the time of their release. Yes, PC's will catch up, no question. That doesn't change the fact that consoles will be more powerful for a certain period of time. Maybe the "bleeding edge PC gamers" will try consoles, just because of that?

Quote:
But 6 months after the console releases, the PC gaming industry will have faster cards out.

True, but then again, on all previous consoles releases, you didn't have to wait 6 months! PC's were already ahead!

Quote:
You like high-def gaming? Try playing Half-Life 2 on a GeForce 6800 Ultra SLI box with a gorgeous 23 inch Apple Cinema Display at 1920x1200 and you will shit your pants. And you can do that NOW. Not by this Christmas or a year from now. (technically you could've done that last December)

You could play games on HD resolution long before last December. All you needed was games that allowed custom resolutions, which is, like most things related to pc-gaming, a PIA! Wink

Quote:
The PC is not going away for gaming, and neither are consoles. Maybe they will become one, but there are lots of obstacles in that path.

Nobody here is saying PC's will die. We're just saying that consoles will be closer than ever, with next-gen! Nothing more, nothing less.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:22 pm
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SuperJerms
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Ranger D wrote:
stuff


I agree with your great points, D.

PC will always be on the bleeding edge. However, that point might be moot either now or within a few generations because of the spiraling costs of making games. Developers are already sensitive to the amount of time a good game takes, and better hardware only exascerbates the problem for them. This means that either some really good dev tools will come along (like what EPIC games is making for the next Unreal), we will see more storyless, sandbox games (like Will Wright's coming SPORE), or the level of technology used by games will plateau. Most likely, all three of these will happen. But I do think the need for the bleeding edge will start to taper off over time, possibly.

PC's have more robust input & output options. For true. I think it will take a generation or two for consoles to figure out a way around this, but I am confident they will. They aren't too far away right now with all the usb ports and on-board support for AI, voicerec, and video input coming in the next gen.

Seems to me that the toughest task is an RTS, civilization, RPG, or MMORPG game, since there are so many inputs needed and so much info to micromanage. Imagine if voice recognition was good enough that it hardly ever messed up. You would only need two buttons to play: one for voice chat, one for voice commands. You could do things every bit as complex as with a keyboard, but wouldn't have to worry about hitting the wrong button. And no Alt- Ctrl- or Shift- suffixes! Any intelligently designed game could do whatever you need. If you don't like a truck driver's voice, a game could automatically translate that voice into a pre-defined character voice (or text, for that matter).

Like you said, consoles just aren't there yet. The benefits to PC are "bleeding edge" and I/O. I think the first is becoming irrelevant, and the second should be fixed within ten years. Sure, PC's will still be around after that dust settles, but the face of gaming will have changed for the better and cheaper.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:03 pm
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water10
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You would only need two buttons to play: one for voice chat, one for voice commands. You could do things every bit as complex as with a keyboard, but wouldn't have to worry about hitting the wrong button. And no Alt- Ctrl- or Shift- suffixes! Any intelligently designed game could do whatever you need. If you don't like a truck driver's voice, a game could automatically translate that voice into a pre-defined character voice (or text, for that matter).

You still need to address the mouse part. It's impossible to select things on a RTS game with a game pad. Including mouse compatibility on consoles is not a solution, imo. It would give unfair advantage on fps games ...

And they have to be really careful with the voices on mmorpgs. If voice recognition will be as advanced as you believe, they could keep the text-based dialogues on mmorpgs, with the option to have real voice chat on limited groups. I think voice chat with more than 20-30 people in an area will consume bandwidth and it'll be annoying as hell! And the fact remains that for true RPG fans, even voice filter wouldn't work ... I'm sure few people can speak like a wookie, for example! Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:25 pm
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Ranger D
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Thanks SJ. You make excellent points yourself.

And now, before we leave this dead horse truly dead....

I was just thinking about voice chat in general. Thinking about how voice chat would work in games that require you to suspend disbelief and offer you a certain amount of immersion. My conclusion is that, personally, in those instances, I would prefer communication via text, rather than voice. For the simple reason why books can be so much greater than movies.

I assume you all saw The Blaire Witch Project. Throughout the entire film you are hearing about this "witch" that may have 8 arms, and all this crazy shit, but no one really knows what she looks like. You get this throughout the entire film, hoping to see what the big stink is about. The thing is, you never see her. So what ends up happening is the audience (read: players) use their imagination to create an image of what is scary for themselves. No hokey guy in a monster suit, that would ruin the immersion. The audience knows what they are afraid of, and if you give them just a little, they will fill in the rest and imagine something super scary just for themselves.

I hope we can see some real progress made in voice recognition and synthesis. This is an area that has had almost no innovation since the Macintosh could speak and I can't wait for all the crazy things you'll be able to do with it. As I get older, I think it's more fun using my imagination to "fill in the good stuff" than to have everything given to me. It lets each person invent their own part of the game, and personalizes it.

Horse is dead, moving on now...


Damn, I need a blog. Or something. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:43 pm
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