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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Perplex City » PXC: Questions/Meta
[META] Card Scans - Legal Issues
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Salkunh
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Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 359
Location: Liverpool, UK

 		the specimen on the glyphs one just made the glyphs completely pointless as its impossible to see the positioning of the hand on the seated man...that sort of thing can completely alter the meaning of a word / line
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Ford: You sure it'll do enough damage?
McKay: Ever see a 20-kiloton nuclear explosion?
Sheppard: I have.
(Everyone looks at him.)
Sheppard: Not up close.

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:16 pm
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BrianEnigma
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Joined: 05 Oct 2003
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Location: Pacific Northwest
SpaceBass wrote:
BriEnigma wrote:
With regards to copying and sharing card images, my little card database not only scales the images down to Wiki-rules-compliant sizes, but also adds a faint watermark ("Specimin") to the center as an extra measure of caution.

Wow, that's awesome! Smile (But, um, it's "specimen".Wink)

Gah! Leave it to me to spellcheck everything except for images. Fixed and regenerated.

Marduk wrote:
Yeah that is really cool. One thing though - could you maybe either not put a watermark over text or make the watermark much fainter?

That might prove a little more difficult, since it is computer-generated and I do not have an easy way to detect the content of the image to place the watermark accordingly. Maybe I will try out a less visible/annoying watermark.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:27 pm
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Nik_Doof
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Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 494
Location: Liverpool, UK
Marduk wrote:
Yeah that is really cool. One thing though - could you maybe either not put a watermark over text or make the watermark much fainter?

That might prove a little more difficult, since it is computer-generated and I do not have an easy way to detect the content of the image to place the watermark accordingly. Maybe I will try out a less visible/annoying watermark.[/quote]

Nah just shift it to a non obstructing area Smile
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Nik_Doof
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:31 pm
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NovacaineX
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 289
Location: Ohio - New York, USA
Quote:
the glyphs one can be transcribed



I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the glyphs one can only be transcribed as english, which solves the puzzle all together. So what's the point of even posting the card when all you do is post the solution.

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:32 pm
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Daffy889
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 493
Location: South Australia

 		Just a thought inspired by BriEnigma's card database - since they have said they'll allow magnifications of selected areas, could we get away with displaying a slightly higher res scan of just the puzzle area, cropping off the coloured borders and the information at the top of the card? The card number and heading could be included on the page next to the card, along with solutions and descriptions of the puzzle. This way it would be impossible to reproduce the actual card with the scan, and would just show the puzzle itself, which is hopefully all the person looking at it will be interested in.
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Daffy³
Perplex City Map

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:04 am
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Nik_Doof
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Joined: 09 Oct 2004
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Location: Liverpool, UK
NovacaineX wrote:
Quote:
the glyphs one can be transcribed



I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the glyphs one can only be transcribed as english, which solves the puzzle all together. So what's the point of even posting the card when all you do is post the solution.


They can be transliterated into text, basiclly a format used to represent hierogyphs in ASCII format designed for these circumstances. much like:

Salkunh wrote:
ink imAh nsw
ink mrrw n it=i
iw Sdy=i r mSdt kA
iw sS n=i aSAt Hr
sS iswt nt kmt
iw sw(A)D n=i r n kmt
iw srd.n=i hAw
Hna nht
ink sS ikr n Dba=f
ink kAry wAD n Dba=f
ptr rn=i


but the chances of another card with hieroglyphs again is very slim.
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Nik_Doof
No you cant have my 333 Letimark Very Happy

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:05 am
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Salkunh
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Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 359
Location: Liverpool, UK
NovacaineX wrote:
Quote:
the glyphs one can be transcribed



I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the glyphs one can only be transcribed as english, which solves the puzzle all together. So what's the point of even posting the card when all you do is post the solution.


hell if you want me to draw out every glyph and then scan it in i will Smile
_________________
Ford: You sure it'll do enough damage?
McKay: Ever see a 20-kiloton nuclear explosion?
Sheppard: I have.
(Everyone looks at him.)
Sheppard: Not up close.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:57 am
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Mima
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Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 260

 		[META] Card Scans - Legal Issues
If the map pieces are low res, it is not going to be possible for anyone to work with them, it is only by massively increasing (and reducing) the size of the images that I have been able to get what I have. A watermark would work much better for these, maybe the PM's would look at them as a separate issue.

Also, in response to one of the earlier points about trading cards only in person, I am bedbound, so would only be able to trade over the internet. I do think that the ebay type solution would be fantastic.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:31 am
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Nogwater
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Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 111
Salkunh wrote:

hell if you want me to draw out every glyph and then scan it in i will Smile


Technically (at least by US Copyright law - IANAL), if you draw it out by hand and scan it, it's a derivative work, and still copyrighted by the original owners. This goes for pretty much any way you'd want to copy all or part of the original card. Of course, there's still a shred of fair use left in the law, but it takes a judge to figure that out. I don't think anyone wants to go to court over this even if they are in the right.

We need to get a definitive answer from MC in witting (on their website would be nice) stating what we're allowed to do and what we're not allowed to do. Basically they'd be granting everyone in the world a license to make low resolution copies, or cropped copies, or watermarked copies or whatever. Hopefully they'll get with their lawyers (or whatever they call them in the UK), and get something figured out ASAP.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:07 pm
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NovacaineX
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Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 289
Location: Ohio - New York, USA

 		I hope this is settled soon because all of this scan controversy kind of takes away from the TINAG feeling.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:20 pm
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pneumatik
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Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 33
Location: TKPK, MD

 		I think having to buy cards is going to take a lot away from the TINAG feel. I give the PM's credit for inventing a fictional world that would make selling the PC cards a reasonable way for them to solve a major crisis, but in the end I'm still going to have to fork over my money to buy some cards. I'm afraid it's going to feel too much like a regular CCG in that regard. There are plenty of ways to get puzzles out to the players without having to use the cards, so it's clear to me that the cards are there for real-world monentary reasons.

*shrugs* That's just the game, I guess. If I have lots of free time in the next few months, I won't mind buying a bunch of cards. If I don't, being able to post the text of the cards and low-res scans should be enough for me to keep up with what's going on without having to buy careds I'm not going to have time to solve. Hopefully the prize money (which I expect to never benefit from, and which the cards are probably funding) will at least spread the word about the game more.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:38 pm
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Salkunh
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Joined: 10 Oct 2004
Posts: 359
Location: Liverpool, UK
Nogwater wrote:
Salkunh wrote:

hell if you want me to draw out every glyph and then scan it in i will Smile


Technically (at least by US Copyright law - IANAL), if you draw it out by hand and scan it, it's a derivative work, and still copyrighted by the original owners. This goes for pretty much any way you'd want to copy all or part of the original card. Of course, there's still a shred of fair use left in the law, but it takes a judge to figure that out. I don't think anyone wants to go to court over this even if they are in the right.


well they cant take you to court for copying the glyphs one because its a) a language and b) taken from an egyptian text so i could just draw the glyphs from the text Smile
_________________
Ford: You sure it'll do enough damage?
McKay: Ever see a 20-kiloton nuclear explosion?
Sheppard: I have.
(Everyone looks at him.)
Sheppard: Not up close.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:41 pm
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BrianEnigma
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Joined: 05 Oct 2003
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Daffy889 wrote:
Just a thought inspired by BriEnigma's card database - since they have said they'll allow magnifications of selected areas, could we get away with displaying a slightly higher res scan of just the puzzle area, cropping off the coloured borders and the information at the top of the card?

Excellent idea! Perhaps a low-res full-card picture in addition to the higher-res puzzle area picture? That way, you can get the general feel of the card as well as enough detail to make out the puzzle specifics.

I can say that mostly what I was going after was a "collect 'em all" sort of database--something where if you were missing, say, card #099, you could click down to see what it is, then click the discussion link to go to the discussion (which may have a high-res picture or transcription), but it would be nice to have all of that in one place.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:58 pm
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Ehsan
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Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992
pneumatik wrote:
I think having to buy cards is going to take a lot away from the TINAG feel. I give the PM's credit for inventing a fictional world that would make selling the PC cards a reasonable way for them to solve a major crisis, but in the end I'm still going to have to fork over my money to buy some cards. I'm afraid it's going to feel too much like a regular CCG in that regard. There are plenty of ways to get puzzles out to the players without having to use the cards, so it's clear to me that the cards are there for real-world monentary reasons.


I really don't think you have to buy the cards. For example, I didn't get any cards by mail, I just came here and saw the scans. Printed out a couple and then tried solving them myself. Others I did on screen.

Now when it comes to entering the solves online, we still don't know how that will work. But I'm fairly sure that anyone can enter solves even if they didn't buy cards - OR - that the CCG part will not be significant compared to the bigger picture of the entire game which will be run on many many new websites.

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:30 pm
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Ehsan
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BriEnigma wrote:

Excellent idea! Perhaps a low-res full-card picture in addition to the higher-res puzzle area picture? That way, you can get the general feel of the card as well as enough detail to make out the puzzle specifics.

I can say that mostly what I was going after was a "collect 'em all" sort of database--something where if you were missing, say, card #099, you could click down to see what it is, then click the discussion link to go to the discussion (which may have a high-res picture or transcription), but it would be nice to have all of that in one place.


I wasn't too thrilled about clicking on a low res image to get to a high res puzzle section of the same image.. I'd like to see it all in one place, so I came up with this:

1- The resolution of the top part (title area) is 300px wide. In fact, I got it from your Card Database. It is then interpolated to 600px width. Notice that the text is not readable in the upper right corner.

2- The resolution of the bottom part (puzzle area) is 600px wide. Notice that the text is readable at the bottom of the card, even though it's smaller than the top part.

3- A non-obtrusive watermark was added to the bottom part because it has a higher printable resolution. The watermark cannot be easily "photoshopped" out without losing parts of the image, yet you can see all the images and even read the text at the bottom despite it being there.


This can be done for all the cards easily by creating a photoshop action, which can be given to a couple of community volunteers who can create them. (It could also be done by GD in PHP but it'll take ages to code)

Since the process will be automated, I can actually do all 256 cards. BriEnigma can then add them to the Card Database. I believe the use of the Wiki to archive cards is also redundant since we have a better system now, so the Wiki should point to the Card Database.

By the way the final product would be much better, and the puzzle area will be even clearer. I just couldn't find any high-res scans to use for demonstration Mad
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:22 pm
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