unforum

[rose]

Community Support for Grassroots Games; TINAG

[skilletaudio]

I joined in the early days of ILB, so maybe Im of a "new" school. I dont see what is wrong abotu knowing who is behind your game. We enjoy knowing who directs our favorite movies, and we go to their movies in the expectations of similar enjoyment. If that knowledge would lead one to "guessing" at probable twists and turns based on a style, then we are playing it like a game, and breaking TINAG as a player. But, in general, I dont see how its a problem, as long as the curtain remains shut during the game itself. The essence of it all is Mutual Illusion. A magician does most of the work, but still requires us to be willing to belive, so in a magic stage show, its not just the magician, we have to hold the illusion as well, he just does 90% of that job. In ARGs, it slides more towards 50/50, the burden is equal between master and audience to prop the illusion.
Its like a giant game of "Step on a crack". We all have to pretend that theres lines we dont cross, and as long as nobody breaks their mother's back, we're having fun. Its all lip service anyway, because if anyone truly thought we werent playing a game, we'd be going from Innovation to Headline News(in the bad way).

[Phaedra]

Why is everyone so eager to declare the death of TINAG?

Regarding TINAG:

It sounds as if you are saying that the fact that we know who is behind the curtain, and that they admit to doing games, destroys TINAG.

I was under the impression that TINAG was the in-game aesthetic wherein the game never admitted that it was a game.

I don't think that's going to change, at least on 4orty2wo's part -- they may hold a press conference before a game and announce that they're doing it, but once the game starts, I'm 95% sure that the curtain will be as firmly in place as it ever was.

I remember several instances of people bringing up Sean as the possible author during ILB, and it didn't seem to affect anyone's playing experience.

Furthermore, I think the TINAG aesthetic is most important for people who are playing their first ARG -- to give them that sense of mystery and wonder at something that stubbornly refuses to admit it's a game. Those of us who have played before, who've talked to PMs and seen behind the curtain, are never going to have the same "innocence."

Knowing the names of the PMs doesn't necessarily destroy that. When I was playing ILB, the name "Sean Stewart" came up, and having read his books, I recognized it, but it didn't really make a difference -- he was just one more of the mysterious people behind the curtain.

Hopefully, when 4orty2wo lauches their next game, we'll all chatter excitedly for a day or so, and then have the good sense to stop talking about "4orty2wo" and "Sean" and "Jane" and "Elan" and resume talking, generically, about "the PMs" so that the newcomers can have the same sense of mystery that we did during our first game.

The same goes for Karetao or any other established PM team whom we're likely to be able to recognize by stylistic traits or just due to the news on the grapevine. The Art of the Heist PMs may be public about their identities, but the game itself is still presenting itself as reality, yes?

Having established teams of PMs doesn't destroy TINAG, in my mind (although I'm not so sure about what the Perplex City team is doing...). But I do think that if TINAG becomes a thing of the past, ARGs won't be ARGs any more -- they may be "alternate" but they won't be a "reality."

Regarding grassroots games, on the other hand, I do wonder how much more help the community needs to give them.

1) Grassroots PMs have a willing audience of bored ARG addicts hanging around UF.

We may b*tch when a game doesn't do something we like, but people still play it.

Case in point: Iris_eye. After spamming numerous UF members via PM, posting TWO topics in the News & Rumors section, registering multiple UF accounts, posting posing as players, and spamming #uf, you would think that the Iris_eye PM(s) had pretty much blown any chance of getting support and players from UF.

However, after we all snarked for a few minutes in chat, a large number of chatters ran off to the website and started trying to decipher it.

2) UF provides grassroots PMs with free forums for their games.

3) Former PMs hanging around UF are, at least in my experience, only too willing to advise prospective PMs.

4) Bill provides free hosting on Deaddrop, doesn't he? Thereby providing, free, pretty much the one more-or-less required expenditure for making an ARG.

5) ARGN announces the launches of grassroots games. Certain PMs may not like it that their games are tagged with a "YMMV" caveat, but on the other hand, they're getting free exposure.

6) UF's archives provide a library of games for the prospective PM to peruse, giving them a free opportunity to study what worked and what didn't, how other PMs have structured their games, and what the players were most and least enthusiastic about.

7) The PM forum on UF provides a recruitment area, and a good place to ask questions of former PMs, again, free of charge.

I don't know, without turning first-timer games into a sort of ARG master-class, how much more help can the community reasonably give?

For me, #1 is a major advantage -- a ready (and despite the complaining, fairly forgiving) audience is a greater advantage than any indie filmmaker, playwright, or musician has. Indie/student PMs essentially get to put on their play with the hall already rented, the publicity done, and the tickets already sold. People may walk out during the performance, but they at least start with a full house.

At some point, the responsibility to keep the audience has to descend, fully, upon the shoulders of the performers.

But the fact that they start with an audience at all is already a major advantage. Perhaps some successful PMs could work on some sort of guide to game design and structure, but beyond that, I'm not sure how much more the community can do without making the game a community endeavor rather than that of a team of PMs.

[rose]

thoughts

[skilletaudio]

I thought the essence of grassroots was rooted in the concept that this is a unique and accessible game format, and someone wants to run a game, so they do it with what resources they have. If you had 10,000 to spend, you'd spend it, and if you didnt, your game would be "grassroots". I have trouble seeing some philosophical skew between the concepts. On that note, what is the other concept? Are the big games just "other" or are they being genre-delineate now, but Im listening. I just thought that ARG was a simple concept, with its forms limited only by manpower and finance.

This is all my opinions of course, but its still just a game to me, whether its being run over AIM or payphones and national television. As a consumer and participant of this entertainment, I reserve the right to choose how I prefer it, and if I think that AIMs and IRC is hackneyed and roll my eyes a little every time someone posts a chat log that outlines yet another vague reference to an eery character that is in extreme duress from an unknown predator, then thats just me, and if it aint fun to me, then I dont play. Its not a condemnation, its just me choosing whats fun for me. If "Big games" come out on top, well then so be it, right?

Am I missing a point? Support comes from those who appreciate a thing, not from general catch-all sympathies.
I really mean when I ask if I just dont get it..I havent been in the community for some time, so I dont see where this dichotomy is coming from. What is going wrong in ARGland?

[imbri]

A couple thoughts... cause I *always* have thoughts

TINAG: PM identity is just one bit of the philosophy and, far as I can tell, the point of it is to build the mystique surrounding the experience. I don't think that by knowing who the PMs are means that TINAG is out the window. I don't think that it's that black and white.

Grassroots Games: I'm all about supporting them, but much like Phaedra, I do question what more we can do. Obviously at least one Grassroots PM feels extremely slighted as his posts in the earlier thread seem to allude. Perhaps others do as well. Speaking for myself, I've never cared if the ARG community found my games or if ARGN/UF discussed them. So, perhaps I don't understand the greater issue that some people have with the way in which grassroots games are supported by the genre. Perhaps other grassroots PMs can speak up... honestly, it seems as though this thread could be used to narrow in on what you feel you all need and help pave a way to make that happen.


Deaddrop: It's current focus is for PM teams. I somehow think it's probably used more by the grassroots guys than the 'big' guys... seeing as they're probably hanging out in their fancy offices plotting all sorts of evil on big white boards while eating some really kick ass chinese take out Anyway, I digress to the dreams of karetao PMs (one of these days... one of these days... ). Back to deaddrop... I know that Crowfoot (I think it's Crowfoot... if I'm wrong, lemme know) has a blog devoted to the grassroots games. What if he & bill worked together to make the front page of Deaddrop focus more on the Grassroots News... ignoring the big guys (aside from the big news that shouldn't be ignored). That way people could get their fix of the Grassroots news & info and it would be strong and current and relevant because that's where a bunch of the grassroots guys hang out anyway.

Fear: I'm going to say it and it's probably going to come out really wrong and really bad and make me sound like a huge game snob or something, but I'm scared of promoting grassroots games too heavily. I really am. Some games just aren't ready for that sort of attention as they're barely holding things together with the small number of players that they have. I know that some hold this huge feeling towards larger numbers but they do not make things easier. In fact, they make things a heck of a lot harder and more complicated, especially on games that are designed with a ton of chat and personal email interaction. If you get much attention and you suddenly have 50 people sending you IMs... how are you going to handle it? I know that it about killed me and it's something that I'll never do again (ok, maybe never and certainly not without bot support). It's really easy to look at the big guys and want the attention and the player numbers that they're getting, but remember... the grass may look a heck of a lot greener but it, too, has its weeds.


- b

edited to add: hey dorkmaster! look... no quotes!

[L.Boomer]

I have been lucky enough to have been BTS on a few successful indie games and in my opinion, the community is really doing enough for us as it is. Probably the only thing lacking is a bit more attention (or recognition) of the games that do a good job.
The games I worked on were succsessful because the teams worked their collective asses off, not because we received a writeup on ARGN. I think that some of the crying about the lack of this perceived "level playing field" is really a cop out. With a creative launch, riveting storyline, and intelligent (fun) gameplay, an indie game has as much of a chance at being well recieved as a corporate one. In fact I think it is a good idea for indie crews to strive for a level that has the community in the dark as to wether or not it is "corporate". If the quality is high, we shouldn't know it is an indie venture at all. Not to mention sites like ARGTalk are implementing a weekly roundup section that you as the PM can submit to, take advantage of it, spend some time to create an easy to read yet compelling weekly summary so that people can see what you are offering. You may turn a lurker into a player.

Phaedra....wonderful post, you summed things up quite well.

Imbri, I love the idea about trying to have a site like Deaddrop cater to the indie PM scene, (but obviously that is entirely up to Bill). I would even go a step further than that and say the indie scene is full of some very talented individuals. Instead of putting all your effort into trying to make things bend the way you envision, make your own news site. ARGN does not have a corner on the ARG news market. There are some really interesting things being written by indie PM's at blogsites and such... pool some resources and make a site. The community is here for you, what you do with it is your own decision.

So I guess in a nutshell...
1. Create great games. (We want to enjoy what you have to offer , but don't take the players for granted.)
2. Strive for a finished product that is virtually indistinguishable from a corporate run game. (It doesn't need the big budget, but good story, gameplay, and execution should be a requirement)
3. Make things happen! ( Make an Indie game news site, or make the existing sites notice your game, either way you win!)
As for the existing sites..... Maybe take a bit more time to recognize the games that are creative and prove themselves. A nice word or two may help to further the community more than you may realize.

PM's, creating a game is more work than many people realize. Make sure you know what you are getting into ahead of time. Ask for advice (you will find there is plenty of it out there for the taking). Spend the time before launch to create a wonderful experience that has been well thought through ahead of time. Make sure you have the resources that you are going to need lined up ahead of time and make sure you have some kind of plan for snags or emergencies. (Murphy's Law sadly still exists). Every game that falls apart hurts the community as a whole, wether it be indie or corporate. Lets strive to make the stigma of such occurrences disappear.

[addlepated]

[Dorkmaster]

[jamesi]

[Phaedra]

[jamesi]

[Phaedra]