unforum

[cassandra]

[they'realloutogetme]

I agree with POTUS, a person with information about a murder suspect or victim is usually required to cooperate with the police. The Recons must be pretty powerful if they can keep the police from questioning key people in such a big case. And yet they themselves were arrested and held for some time. Hmmm....

[wintermute_au]

well, the recons obviously have enough clout to prevent the cops taking someone who is "with the cube" (more on this in that other thread...)

re the Eight who were held:
1. they aren't necessarily the top8, thats just speculated in the sentinel article... it's likely they were high-ranking; possible they were a 'sacrifice' so those responsible could get away, possible also the eight were given significant mental training to prevent the cops getting any info out of them
2. the US has held ppl in guantanamo for long time without charge, and then releasing them for lack of evidence, so i can't see why PPC can't do the same

[cassandra]

People cannot be compelled to speak to police (hello Miranda), especially ones not arrested for a crime. Police, however, have the right to try to obtain information. (Lawyers or law students, feel free to add info or correct me)

The article states that they want to get information about her late husband's illegal activities, not his murder. I suspect that the 'complicated relationship' involves the City Council allowing the cult to operate without interference, probably with a long historical precedent. Money, legislative rights afforded to religious groups, or govt members may be involved. Whatever the reason, the police have no compelling reason to forcibly enter the compound, unless they are trying to find someone involved with the murder or another crime.

[GuyP]

I really don't see a big sci-fi explanation for many of the aspects of this article. They can't compel her to talk, just as in our society we have the right to remain silent (however anything you fail to mention... etc etc) I am a little surprised she wasn't arrested ('her husband was killed and she went on the run' seems like grounds for this to me) and I think this points to tension between the City and the Reconstructionists, probably because they're a bit nuts. These could be heightened by criminalisation of their practices (like outlawing polygamy in Utah or whatever.)

[Leeravitz]

The implication I'm getting from things is that, when Holyoke was first murdered, the City police couldn't find his wife.

They've since discovered that she is living under an assumed name amongst a group of religious cultists with whom the City has uneasy relations in the first place (maybe simply because the Reconstructionists are fundamentalists of a certain stripe, and hold secular authority in contempt). They may well fear some kind of explosive fall - out if they go in all guns blazing to grab a hold of her; rioting, perhaps, or a state of siege developing (and there you have the Waco parallel).

Even more important may be the sense that 'Kostka' is now very difficult to get to, because the Reconstructionists will undoubtedly bar access, possibly even relocate her somewhere so that one of their own does not fall into 'secular' hands. It may also be the case that its difficult for the police to establish exactly when she signed up to the Reconstuctionists, and therefore, there is some uncertainty over whether or not she knows all that much about Holyoke's activties in the first place (I'm not suggesting she doesn't, merely that the police may be treading on thin ice here...).

Moreover, if she's been brainwashed, any interrogation might well prove to be a complete dead - end...

[NovacaineX]

SPEC alert!

alright how about this, Spec 1.

Holyoke knew something, something that the reconstructionists didn't want him to know, they planned on brainwashing him or erasing his memories. So one night they have one of their agents go into his bar and wait for him to close. After everyone else leaves, the agent tries to knock him out, so that they can erase his memory. But Bernado doesn't give up so easily. He puts up a fight, but obviously, doesn't win. The agent stashes his body in his office, ransacks the place to make it look like a robbery, and leaves. After reporting back one of the reconstructionists thinks that maybe he told his wife whatever information he had. Instead of murdering her, they are able to simply brain wash her.

Whatever Holyoke knew probably had something to do with all of the stolen high-tech academy equipment he apparently had stashed away.

Spec 2

Holyoke was hired to steal the cube by the reconstructionists. He was supplied with the stolen equipment, and got away with it flawlessly. He delivered the cube to them, just as planned. But maybe after thinking about it for a little while he starts to feel guilty. He confides his dark secret the only person he can trust, his estranged wife. The reconstructionists somehow learn about his guilty conscience and have to take care of him. They send someone in to murder him and make it look like a robbery. They then find his wife and brainwash her and keep a tight watch on her, speaking for her to the police even, just to make sure that she won't let anything slip.

Ok, well I guess those were pretty similar but thats alright.

[sledgecallier]

In case you missed it... The general frustration of why the police cannot get to Holyoke's wife seems to be echoed in Violet's latest blog entry at Quirky Acuity.

[Leeravitz]

I think it's equally possible that Holyoke may have been involved somehow in the theft of the Cube (we now know that he appeared to have been fencing security equpiment, and some of it seems to have been stolen from the Academy), and the guilt over this affected his wife in some way. In order to 'atone' for Holyoke's misdeeds, she went to join the Reconstructionists and try to assuage her guilt over helping in the Cube's abduction.

I don't think it's necessarily obvious that the Reconstructionists actually had something to do with the theft - they could have done, but they smack of being 'obvious suspects' a little too much for my liking.

Equally, we shouldn't rule out the possibility that Mrs. Holyoke knows something, is scared of having to reveal it, and took refuge amongst the Reconstructionists purely in order to avoid the follow - up investigation.

But what's hard to determine exactly is when she left Holyoke for the Recons...all I think we know is that the police couldn't find her shortly after the murder...

One other possibility, of course, is that Mrs. H. killed her husband and going to the Recons. is a seeking of asylum. If she'd already become an adherent to the Reconstructionist cause, perhaps she assassinated him under orders because he had been involved in a scheme to appropriate the Cube. Unfortunately, without further info, I feel most of these speculations sound valid enough!

[Violet]

[Leeravitz]

Actually, now you mention it, I'm almost prepared to accept that as the most logical explanation. It's not as exciting as all this talk of Reconstructionist planting of moles, mind wiping and murder, but it's psychologically satisfying. There's no reason, just because the technological situation is so different, that simple human emotions and reactions don't condition the lifestyles of the average (and not so average) Perplexian. In a similar way, I imagine that the Alejo - Joya - Shockley situation may have more to do with an unwanted pregnancy, or an uncertain paternity, or blackmail over the issue of the pregnancy or some such than anything as exotic as mind stimulant addiction, poisoning etc.

Clearly, this might be mistaken.

If we accept that Jessica probably left Holyoke because she suspected his shady dealings, and joined the Reconstructionist movement in an attempt to cope, then her own story may be a bit of a dead end. On the other hand, it points even more certainly to the likelihood that theft of the Cube was bound up with Holyoke's activities.

[Violet]

At this point I'm pretty convinced Holyoke/Holyoke's bar had something to do with the theft of the Cube, and Jessica had very little, if not nothing, to do with it. There's also the fact that she joined the Recons, which I don't think makes a lot of sense if she had helped steal it. Why join the people who obviously value the Cube if you helped get rid of it?

[spugmeistress]

[toongoon]

cue the Law & Order >dum-dum< ;]

Spugmeistress, I like the way you think.

If Mrs Holyoke is crazy, she's crazy like a cubist fox.

okay I need some puzzle action...

[Violet]

They said it would one day be delivered from the hands of the academics, which it has been, but Sente seems to know for definite that it's been transported to Earth. I know there's that cute little saying about assumption, but I'm quite happy for the time being to believe Sente's got his facts straight - I for one wouldn't start a massive search with possibly untrustworthy 'outsiders' if I wasn't sure about needing them - that's far too much effort if he's not absolutely certain...

..still, it'd be an interesting if they did have it