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Newbie request for info
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TheHaunt
Boot


Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 16
Location: Ontario Canada

 		Newbie request for info
I just found this site about 5 hours ago and have been pouring through it ever since. I am very interested in joining an ARG and I wondered if anyone could reccomend something. I realize that each ARG is likely tailored to suit a particular type of gamer (eg. sci-fi, fantasy etc) but wondered if there may be an ARG particularly suited to newbies. Off the bat I must say the thing that piques my interest the most so far is neurocam, but I've seen a great deal of apprehension regarding it and since I live in a remote area I have doubts about being accepted as a member. I also had a quick look at thematrixisreal.com but I must admit that I don't quite follow it, the homepage kind of counfounds me. In any case, can anyone reccommend something that isn't mind meltingly difficult to get into? Thanks in advance for any replies.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:44 am
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Crowfoot
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Joined: 31 Jan 2005
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 		It's difficult to recommend a game entirely, because there are lots of different ones out there, and most have been in full swing for quite a while. My advice to you is to start with one of the larger games, for example Perplex City as there are many, many people playing and you may find it more comfortable. If you're looking for something perhaps a little smaller and more concentrated, then I suggest a game like Rookery Tower, as it has just started up and is great for both newbies and veterans alike. Otherwise you could latch onto some of the rumours or try your hand at Zoe's World.

Hope that helps you.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:45 am
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rose-notin
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 		Recommend-Heist!!!!!!!
Groundbreaking!!!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:38 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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 		Well, I would recommend Art of the Heist.

It's a professionally done game, so the chances of it falling apart are less, and it has a lot of real-world meetups with in-game characters, which a lot of people like.

I'm not playing it myself, so this is all second-hand, mind you. Smile

I would say that there aren't really any games "specifically tailored" for newbies -- most professionally done games are designed to be accessible to everyone, and to allow entry at any point.

More importantly, if you have any questions or need help while playing a game, the other players will be only too happy to help. It's a communal endeavor.

But yes, I would recommend Heist.

Perplex City intially looked very exciting, but after taking (what? a year?) a very long time and having at least one false start (or at least, it appeared to be a false start to a lot of people), I think some people are starting to lose faith in it.

So, again, I'd go with Heist.

Otherwise, if it's not your cup of tea, stick around because a game by 4orty2wo (Ilovebees and the Beast) should be launching pretty soon.

Whatever you choose, welcome and best of luck! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:58 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		While everyone is still in a sort of E 3 post-haze... (and really shouldn't be still, but it won't last long), I also would reccomend checking out ARGN.com (link above too!) every once in a while. They post "What's Hot" (usually the top 5 games in terms of playership, quality, and gamesmanship) and they also have general features that try to let you know what each game is about, without saying "This one sucks" or "this one is AWESOME" or something. They try to stay impartial, in general. A disclaimer, however, is that I write for them too, but so far only one article weeks ago. Rolling Eyes


But I do reccomend it in general for keeping up with what's new, without having to always read all the new posts, at least! Welcome, though!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:56 am
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TheHaunt
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Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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Location: Ontario Canada

 		Thanks for all your advice folks! For now I have decided to join what seems to be the upcoming City of Domes ARG and have started one that started a couple days ago, not sure if it has a name yet, but I think it'll be called Avelon or something, anyway, both look interesting and it seems a good place to start. I also threw my name in at Neurocam, not too sure if it's an ARG or what, but it seems worth the effort of finding out. In any case, thank you all again for the warm welcome, I hope I can cut mustard here Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:15 am
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Alzheimers
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Dorkmaster wrote:
They post "What's Hot" (usually the top 5 games in terms of playership, quality, and gamesmanship)


While I think it's a great idea to list the current most popular games, I'm not thrilled with the way they present "Indie" games with the warning "Your Mileage may vary", as if these games somehow contain small parts unsuitable for children under 3 or may cause cancer. They don't footnote The Heist or PPC with the tagline "Warning: this is really just a glorified sales pitch" or "Warning: you may need to dole out cash money to succeed in this one". The very fact that there is a warning (not just a designation of it being "Indie", but an actual Warning) is something that should concern any prospective PM who isn't pitching something or being backed by a major corporation. Should every new PM team bear the burden for the mistakes of others?

Would Urban Hunt have received the same warning? Metacortex?

I understand the frustration the community feels towards meltdowns, but to label new projects as prospective failures before they've had a chance hurts the entire genre's reputation as something worth developing for. If we turn off prospective players before a project can mature and gather momentum, it can only help such disasters occur.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:50 am
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imbriModerator
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
Alzheimers wrote:
Would Urban Hunt have received the same warning? Metacortex?


As a Metacortex PM, I think that it most likely would have been labelled as such once the community determined that it was an independent project. I'm not sure what you are implying there, but I do believe that Steve and Space were MORE than fair in the way that they dealt with promoting the game (to the side of not promoting it, actually) while also maintaining UF/ARGN. We could have easily seeded both ARGN and UF with information but we chose to remain as handsoff as possible and as fair to other games as possible. In fact, the first mention of Metacortechs on ARGN was in January... two months after the game concluded. And, despite knowing that Metacortechs was about to launch and that other internet sites had found the rabbithole, Steve didn't even mention the game when he wrote about Acheron ramping up for launch.

Steve is nothing if not fair and honest.


Alzheimers wrote:
I understand the frustration the community feels towards meltdowns, but to label new projects as prospective failures before they've had a chance hurts the entire genre's reputation as something worth developing for.


As for the "your mileage may vary warning", I believe that's a very true statement. Unlike you, I don't believe that he's providing a "warning" or labelling games as prospective failures, but providing a disclaimer. Not only that, but it's a very true statement. Independent projects lack the financial checks & balances intrinsic in a commercial project. Unlike the large commercial projects, they rarely have professional authors, game designers, and new media specialists behind them. That expertise, while not required, certainly helps in a successful design. Because of that, your mileage may, indeed, vary. It's a disclaimer and not a warning that the game will fail.

You know that I'm a 'friend' of the independent games and grassroots PM teams. Heck, I've worked as or with grassroots teams for 4 years now. Despite moving into a professional arena, I will always support the grassroots games not only because many of them are far more enjoyable experiences than the commercial alternatives but because they can allow for certain types of experimentation. That's another reason why the "mileage may vary" statement is good to have... you have untrained game designers experimenting with very unproven game design. With ARGN being such a highly visible site, providing that disclaimer allows players to see that there are other options that may not be as risky and it allows them to make a more informed decision.

I also completely disagree with your ascertation that such a disclaimer tells prospective developers that the community isn't worth developing for. Obviously the number of awards that both 42 and Xenophile have recieved clearly and publicly show that is not the case. If anything it might suggest that there's room for strong designers to get involved with those with a strong knowledge of and incentive in the genre in order to create a great experience. At least that's how I see it.

- b

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:19 pm
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QBKooky
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 281
Phaedra wrote:
Otherwise, if it's not your cup of tea, stick around because a game by 4orty2wo (Ilovebees and the Beast) should be launching pretty soon.
Quaaaa? *raises eyebrow*

Oh, and in late response, yes, I'd recommend Art of the Heist... there's a lot of content, but the board and "Story So Far" bits seem very well organized and concise... so the only thing to gripe about is living in a not-big-enough city... like NYC or Chicago. *jealous of retrievers* Razz I've been enjoying reading up on the history and stuff of Perplex City, but yes, it's been a bit slow.

Welcome to Unfiction! Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:01 pm
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Alzheimers
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imbri wrote:
As a Metacortex PM, I think that it most likely would have been labelled as such once the community determined that it was an independent project. I'm not sure what you are implying there,


The implication being, if any project is to be assumed YMMV, all should be. Even commercial ventures, although less likely, are susceptable to player letdown. There is no "Failure insurance" that can guarantee or promise a happy ending.

To single out Indie games as being somehow "less than" does nothing to help our cause; I'd go so far as to say it's damaging to the very image of a vibrant and thriving community we're trying to convey. I use Metacortex and UH as strong examples of exactly why this tag *shouldn't* apply to grassroots gaming. Are you comfortable knowing that your audience is being told to expect your doom before you've even gotten off the ground? Harsh past experiences considered, I still think that's the wrong message to convey.

Imbri wrote:
As for the "your mileage may vary warning", I believe that's a very true statement. Unlike you, I don't believe that he's providing a "warning" or labelling games as prospective failures, but providing a disclaimer.


Again, a disclaimer that should apply to any game. If there are checks and balances in commercial games, they are still no guarantee of a successful conclusion. See also: Push, NV

Imbri wrote:
That's another reason why the "mileage may vary" statement is good to have... you have untrained game designers experimenting with very unproven game design.


Words like "Untrained" and "Unproven" still, for the majority of cases, sum up our community. As far as I know, there still aren't any "ARG Classes" offered by universities, nor are there EA-sized development houses full of veterans constantly churning out high-grade entertainment. There's 4orty-2wo, and...the rest of us, hoping for some bit of reputation that they enjoy. Are we to then assume anything not from them won't or can't be as good? How can we know, until we try it? (UH > ILB, imho)

Imbri wrote:
With ARGN being such a highly visible site, providing that disclaimer allows players to see that there are other options that may not be as risky and it allows them to make a more informed decision.


Or, you can read that as "With ARGN being such a highly visible site, providing that disclaimer influences players who would ordinarily not have a preference to choose a project based more upon the predictions of the editors than of the quality of the games themselves." An informed decision? By what criteria -- that since a game isn't being backed by a corporate sponsor, it's just setting you up for heartbreak? As someone who has produced quality content, I can't believe you'd be comfortable with that perception.

Imbri wrote:
I also completely disagree with your ascertation that such a disclaimer tells prospective developers that the community isn't worth developing for. Obviously the number of awards that both 42 and Xenophile have recieved clearly and publicly show that is not the case.


But neither of these games would have received that pesky YMMV tag, which is exactly the problem. This just serves to further the impression that only financially backed games are worthwhile. I don't disagree that their success is a huge benefit to the community. But to simultaneously raise up these shining examples of what an ARG can aspire to, while making specific warnings about the quality of the rest, sends conflicting messages to an uneducated audience that couldn't tell the difference between ILB and LX.

It's our job as a community to educate those that are interested in our genre. By instilling this kind of hierarchy from the first moments of their contact with ARGs, we're only teaching the next generation to predict heartbreak from the grassroots side before they've had a chance to be won over by a true homespun gem.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:19 pm
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catherwood-offline
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Alzheimers wrote:
Are you comfortable knowing that your audience is being told to expect your doom before you've even gotten off the ground?

I don't see where they are being told this at all! I do agree that ALL games should come with a YMMV disclaimer -- but I disagree that it means certain doom. "You mileage MAY vary" means that the outcome could be worse OR *better* than expectations. Basically, the YMMV disclaimer means you should have NO expectations at all, because we just do not have enough info to predict whichever way things MIGHT turn out.

Let's also agree that a site like ARGN might do well to treat it as a general disclaimer only, and not a label at all. If there is indeed enough information to label a specific game -- for good OR for bad -- they have the right to institute their own rating system as they see fit. Once again, it would need a disclaimer to identify it as the editorial opinion of the site, however educated and informed that opinion might be.

/me is too distracted at work today.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:31 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
Alzheimers wrote:
The implication being, if any project is to be assumed YMMV, all should be. Even commercial ventures, although less likely, are susceptable to player letdown. There is no "Failure insurance" that can guarantee or promise a happy ending.


Again, you are making the assumption that "your mileage may vary" is equal to "this game will likely fail". ARGN is not saying that at all. It has nothing to do with failure, as far as I'm aware. And, even you admit that commercial ventures are less likely to be a disappointment. If that is the case, why should they recieve the same disclaimer?

Alzheimers wrote:
I use Metacortex and UH as strong examples of exactly why this tag *shouldn't* apply to grassroots gaming. Are you comfortable knowing that your audience is being told to expect your doom before you've even gotten off the ground? Harsh past experiences considered, I still think that's the wrong message to convey.


Again, I argue that it is not a message of impending doom. It's a general statement applied to all games that have not been given the checks and balances that professional experiences go through. It's saying "we don't know exactly what this is, but it's obviously really popular with the players and forums or it wouldn't be on the list"... some might say that's a stronger recommendation than a game that makes the list solely because it has the commercial backing to make it popular.

Alzheimers wrote:
If there are checks and balances in commercial games, they are still no guarantee of a successful conclusion. See also: Push, NV


And Majestic. I agree that there is no guarantee with commercial ventures. However, I again argue that the statement is not a statement measuring success or failure. It's measuring game play. While those games failed, many of the players were incredibly satisfied both with the game play and the ways in which they concluded (albeit prematurely).

Alzheimers wrote:
Imbri wrote:
That's another reason why the "mileage may vary" statement is good to have... you have untrained game designers experimenting with very unproven game design.


Words like "Untrained" and "Unproven" still, for the majority of cases, sum up our community. As far as I know, there still aren't any "ARG Classes" offered by universities, nor are there EA-sized development houses full of veterans constantly churning out high-grade entertainment. There's 4orty-2wo, and...the rest of us, hoping for some bit of reputation that they enjoy. Are we to then assume anything not from them won't or can't be as good? How can we know, until we try it? (UH > ILB, imho)


Actually, a good number of universities offer undergraduate and graduate courses in game design, some even provide for entire majors in the field. I can't speak for a number of them, but as a grad student at Ga Tech, I can attest to the excellence of their program where I have taken courses on Game Design, Interactive Narrative, & Interactive Design as well as participate in research on Broadband and Mobile entertainment. Really quite relevant to this genre. Training, however, doesn't have to be academic and some could easily argue (and I would tend to agree) that those best prepared are those with actual experience. You keep holding UH up as a great example of an independent game. I would agree. It was also the fourth game that Dave designed and I think that he would agree that it was much better done than his earlier work with Change Agents. Experience counts. Metacortechs was, in many ways, better than Lockjaw and each SMB game that I do draws on the lessons learned from the previous. It's about experience as much as it is about theory.

Alzheimers wrote:
Or, you can read that as "With ARGN being such a highly visible site, providing that disclaimer influences players who would ordinarily not have a preference to choose a project based more upon the predictions of the editors than of the quality of the games themselves."


Actually, its based upon the predictions of the community. AFAIK, the games that are mentioned are those that recieve the highest amount of traffic on the forums and in the ARGN logs. Steve isn't making these decisions... the community is.

Alzheimers wrote:
...we're only teaching the next generation to predict heartbreak from the grassroots side before they've had a chance to be won over by a true homespun gem.


or...

"...we're only teaching the next generation of grassroots developers to put enough time and effort into their game so that they can win over players with a true homespun gem."


oh, and TheHaunt... welcome! please ignore our rather offtopic debates. You'll learn that a couple of us tend to enjoy having the same ol' tired discussions and, though we're rather opinionated, we really do like each other. We'll probably like you too once we get to know you a bit better... so I hope we don't scare ya away. They really are fun (the games, not the silly debates...) and if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I can promise that not every response will be covered with such squabbling Smile

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:53 pm
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Alzheimers
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catherwood-offline wrote:
I don't see where they are being told this at all! I do agree that ALL games should come with a YMMV disclaimer -- but I disagree that it means certain doom. "You mileage MAY vary" means that the outcome could be worse OR *better* than expectations. Basically, the YMMV disclaimer means you should have NO expectations at all, because we just do not have enough info to predict whichever way things MIGHT turn out.


If it's so inconsequential, why include it at all? By singling out those games and warning these specific titles are "Indie," you're creating the notion that these games, by their nature, are going to lead to pain. I have no problem with them being labeled "Indie" -- it's the warning I don't appreciate.

Catherwood-offline wrote:
Let's also agree that a site like ARGN might do well to treat it as a general disclaimer only, and not a label at all. If there is indeed enough information to label a specific game -- for good OR for bad -- they have the right to institute their own rating system as they see fit. Once again, it would need a disclaimer to identify it as the editorial opinion of the site, however educated and informed that opinion might be.


Assuming for a moment that ARGN is to be considered a private site dedicated to the author's opinions on ARG gaming and and not the community-centric site oft referenced by mass media as a prime source of information for the ARG community entire, then they're absolutely within their right to do whatever they want with it. But then what is their purpose in labeling anything with a disclaimer and a warning? If ARGN isn't to be regarded as a site dedicated informing and reporting on the ARG Community, then there's really no community service being done and it's purpose is no greater than any other blog such as ARGitect.com or pencilpaperinternet.blogspot.com

I would hate to assume that a few people's editorial opinion would somehow be construed by the mass media as fact for our entire community. They're free to write whatever they want on their own site, and that's fine. But then we have to accept the consequences of what that means, the next time ARGN is referenced in an article about our community in general.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:59 pm
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Alzheimers
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imbri wrote:
Again, you are making the assumption that "your mileage may vary" is equal to "this game will likely fail". ARGN is not saying that at all. It has nothing to do with failure, as far as I'm aware. And, even you admit that commercial ventures are less likely to be a disappointment. If that is the case, why should they recieve the same disclaimer?


If you use it to separate one type of game from another, then that's exactly what it says. Disclaimer, warning, dire prediction of doom; call it what you will, it spells out in no uncertain terms, "This game more likely to dissapoint you."

If it's a general warning on failure and heartbreak, there's more than enough from both grassroots and commercial ventures to warrant equal warning.

Imbri wrote:
Again, I argue that it is not a message of impending doom. It's a general statement applied to all games that have not been given the checks and balances that professional experiences go through. It's saying "we don't know exactly what this is, but it's obviously really popular with the players and forums or it wouldn't be on the list"... some might say that's a stronger recommendation than a game that makes the list solely because it has the commercial backing to make it popular.

Given the supposedly opaque curtain we're assuming those PMs hiding, how can we ever know for sure where those checks and balances are? Did we know with Slumberil, the supposed Matrix ARG? Do we know about City of Domes, which spec suggests it might be a Virtuquest, but without confirmation how can we know it's not some fan made production? For a community that values transparency and Meta, differentiating between the origins of a game pokes some rather large holes in the ambiguity of it all.

My point is, unless we want to toss the baby out with the bathwater, ratings systems and origin-specific warning systems do nothing more than damage the credibility of the community. I'm sure you want to believe that this is all being done with the best of intentions in heart. And I'd be willing to believe it's an honest oversight, if the danger is recognized.

Imbri wrote:
And Majestic. I agree that there is no guarantee with commercial ventures. However, I again argue that the statement is not a statement measuring success or failure. It's measuring game play. While those games failed, many of the players were incredibly satisfied both with the game play and the ways in which they concluded (albeit prematurely).

So then, why mention it at all? If the risk is understood, there's no need to make specific warnings about specific games.

Imbri wrote:
Actually, a good number of universities offer undergraduate and graduate courses in game design, some even provide for entire majors in the field...Metacortechs was, in many ways, better than Lockjaw and each SMB game that I do draws on the lessons learned from the previous. It's about experience as much as it is about theory.

I guess what I'm getting at is that this is still a young art form; to assume any one theory to be the end all of ARGing would be premature. "Untested" and "experimental" concepts should be expected, not used as a warning sign for danger. Yes, there are classes that would help in certain aspects of game design; but this genre is more than that. It's creative writing, it's web design, it's graphic design, it's puzzle design, it's social engineering, it's acting, and it's project management. In one big ball, with threads crossing and merging and splitting off into other areas as well. Anyone who claims to have the formula for the perfect ARG is working off of yesterday's notes.

Imbri wrote:
Actually, its based upon the predictions of the community. AFAIK, the games that are mentioned are those that recieve the highest amount of traffic on the forums and in the ARGN logs. Steve isn't making these decisions... the community is.


So Traffic = Grassroots gaming? I don't follow. The "popularity" system is derived by page hits; fabulous, welcome to Google Pagerank circa 1998. It's that big * next to the grassroots games that concerns me. Google never tells me "Watch out for this site. The writer's kind of new to this, so he could be talking out his ass for all I know." Which leaves me with a clean slate to base my own opinions on, instead of a biased recommendation which could skew me away from possibly important information.

Imbri wrote:
"...we're only teaching the next generation of grassroots developers to put enough time and effort into their game so that they can win over players with a true homespun gem."


But that's not the impression it's giving -- it's punishing them before they even fail by assuming that they won't succeed by virtue of their grassroots heritage. My dad never went to college -- should I be denied a scholarship because I'd be considered a higher risk? That won't prevent me from going, but it puts me me at a disadvantage.

And, TheHaunt -- Just keep an open mind when it comes to new experiences. Just because some people want to paint the world in monochrome stripes doesn't mean there isn't a world of grey in between each stroke. Find your own color -- there's an infinte number of them, and each one is unique.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:01 pm
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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 		Woo! Another chance for me to explain ARGN's editorial policies. Smile

I think the basic reason for all the angst about this hotlist thing comes from a basic disconnect about ARGN's purpose. This really is crystalized by statements like:

Alzheimers wrote:
To single out Indie games as being somehow "less than" does nothing to help our cause...


Alzheimers, who is the "our" in the "our cause" you speak of? You go on to say the community, but it seems like you're referring more to a community of grassroots PMs or something rather than the community of players as a whole. In fact, looking at your later posts, including the couple just preceding this one, it becomes pretty obvious as to the perspective you're writing from.

So, I think there's a fundamental misassumption here, and it is this. ARGN's first responsibility is to its readers. Based on our tracking, over 90% of traffic to ARGN are first-time visitors. Think about that for a second. That's hundreds of thousands of people annually who don't know an ARG from a hole in the ground, who are trying to get their heads around the whole concept of Alternate Reality Gaming and don't know what it is or how to get started. That's how ARGN works to "build and support the [player] communities surrounding Alternate Reality Games" as stated in its goals, by working to plug new users into the genre.

So, we purposely try to look at things from the perspective of the unititiated, making ARGs as accessible as possible to the mainstream. Moreover, despite me being a former PM, and having many PM friends, - and here's the shocker - ARGN does not exist to support PM teams. Well, qualifying that a little, inasmuch as it benefits the players and the genre as a whole, ARGN will do everything possible to promote the PMs efforts, but let me say again that it's the players/readers that come first. As a result, ARGN tries to give a thumbnail of the major stuff going on so that new people can get the big picture quickly and get involved easily, not be an exhaustive listing of each and every little thing that's happening. That's being done perfectly well on other sites, including this one.

If this genre were akin to a little weekend club of housewives who put on Shakespeare scenes for their own enjoyment, sure, I'd do everything I could to get as many players to as many games as possible. But it's not any more, and this is what the majority of "community" people aren't realizing yet. ARG is swiftly approaching the tipping point of mainstream awareness and acceptance, and we're doing everything possible to help that happen.

This is not a game, guys. People are watching. There are careers at stake at this point. When a grassroots game implodes, it does LOTS of damage. When a high school student decides to rope people along and yank them around, it does LOTS of damage. When someone employs irresponsible game design, it does LOTS of damage.

ARGN qualifies indie games with the YMMV disclaimer for one reason: because it's true. That's not ARGN's fault, and sorry, but sometimes the truth hurts. For ARGN to point to all games without qualification would be wildly irresponsible. See, unfortunately indie ARGs aren't like indie films. You can go see an indie film, and at least know you'll be able to watch it until the end (usually). Sadly, that's not the case with ARGs, and if ARGN were to blindly recommend any and all games without qualification, including ones that implode, then that would hurt ARGN's credibility to the general public. Bottom line is that the new person can't tell the difference between an I Love Bees and a Lenny's Xanga, and to think that there is no difference, nor should any difference be pointed out is just ludicrous.

So in closing, I hear your concerns, Alzheimers, but believe it or not, these are issues that have been already evaluated and discussed well before anything's ever been implemented at ARGN. Everything done at ARGN is very purpose-driven at this point, and never just done willy-nilly (shock!).

ARGN is what it is, and takes the positions that it does for very well thought-out reasons, and some will agree, some will disagree, and that's fine. But bottom line is that you're not ARGN's primary audience, Alzheimers, and it is this primary audience to which ARGN's main responsibility lies. As stated before, the ARGN hotlist is an objective reflection of fact, based on interest on the forums, player logs, google referrals, media coverage, etc. etc. etc. etc., and the indie disclaimer is simply that, based on the reality of things. Just about every related genre I can think of differentiates between indie and professional projects: music, film, books, and yes, even computer games, so I just don't see why Alternate Reality Games need to be any different.

There are multiple ARG-related sites at this point, and that's a great thing. However, each has their own perspective on things, and that's a great thing, too, just as does every publication on the face of the earth. ARGN will continue to be ARGN, thank you. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:19 pm
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