unforum

[C_Brennan]

While most people know my stance on this issue, or at least, believe they know my stance on this issue, I will announce that through alot of work, thinking, running and playing games, I wish to revise my own stance, and I do believe I would like to do it in this thread.

Posting to UF as an in-game character, even though I did do it and got banned for it, but was let back in, is now clear to me that it opens up a can full of worms on many levels. Two of those levels that pop out to me the most would be the levels where the characters may be gaining too much information, and seeing information they really don't need to see, where it really just takes the lines of the game and flops it very awkwardly. The second level is the fact that most players then feel uncomfortable, may neglect to post out of fear of ruining something or betraying secrets to the characters. It happened in Project Gateway. I also acknowledge that I wanted it to happen, but it happened much more severe than I anticipated. Bad move, bad form, all my fault.

However, I also acknowledge that I like posting to forums as characters. It adds a new level. Of course this liking of mine is fulfilled on Immersion Unilimited, where I spend most of my time and my efforts of PMing not only because I work with Nash, but also because the rules apply to me better over there. So, if the new fledgling PM wants characters to speak with players on forums, they can either go to Immersion Unlimited, or make their own forums. In either case, the PM must make a rationale for the decision of the characters. Why did the character seek the help of IU? Why did the character set up their own board? Etc..

But lastly, this is the part that I think most people are familiar with and know me for saying, my universe is my universe - not yours. I created it, I do what I wish with it and no one has the right to control it except for me. And if that includes that the character spy on your activities, it includes it. However, I do want to stress, there is a happy medium where a person can do this effectively and make it look and run wonderfully in a game. I'm sure of it. But there is, and it happens quite easily, a level where there is too much spying and too much information flowing to the hands of a character.

With this last paragraph, I wish to also take into account that the universe the PM creates must also be specifically designed with this concept in mind. It really cannot just be thrown in into the middle of a game. I will use Project Gateway for the remainder of this little speech, as it is an example of a work I know very well (as I made it) and also did this. PG gave players a long winded, subtle warning that showed that the enemies (Sir Shadown, the Shadow Government, The Wild Card Gang, etc...) were slowly tracking the progress of whoever was apprehending the Project Gateway Program. This searching culminated when in the storyline, the character Rowen Darkblade stated in a meeting with Sir Shadown that he had found who was hacking into their prison program, and it was a group of alternate reality game players who could have sworn that this thing was a game.

In that sentence, the rationale for characters reading Unfiction was stated. Rowen and Shadown wanted to know who was hacking into their program. They took measures to find out who it was in real time (this process took 2 weeks) and it was even given to the players in a point-blank statement that they were in trouble. Also, Rowen acknowledged all of the in-game and out-of-game information that was present on the boards, and passed it off with a logical explanation. (Rowen: "They have no idea that this is real."; Rowen: "This group thinks they are playing a game.") The characters acknowledge that the players of the game were just that, players. Merely people who had been tied up in a mysterious set of circumstances that they didn't fully understand or comprehend. The characters acknowledged all of the out-of-game information and passed it off in a logical conclusion - nothing was left untouched or unaccounted for, and it made sense.

I stand by the idea that this is what is required if a PM wishes to do something as bold as this. They must cover their tracks properly, leave nothing untouched and all bases accounted for, and have it make sense in the storyline. AND, I cannot stress this enough, SPYING ON AN OUT OF GAME FORUM DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE OR STORYLINE. IT ONLY WORKS FOR PARTICULAR INSTANCES!!!

Case in point, this worked for Project Gateway. It makes sense that the evil people want to know who is screwing them out of their victory. This didn't work for Wildfire Industries, or I Love Bees, or many other games. Wildfire Industries had players in direct contact with the characters. If they wanted to know something, the character could approach the player and ask. Same thing for I Love Bees, the antagonist-ish character (Melissa) was in constant contact with players via pay phones. Spying on their forums really wasn't required. No one needed the information that badly in either of these circumstances. These characters were on a "didn't need to really know" basis. It worked for PG because there was a group of people who were literally chafing at the bit for this kind of information. They were on a "we need to know and we need to find out" basis.

I think that fully covers what I wanted to say. So to provide a synopsis:

1. Characters treating Unfiction as in-game can cause potential problems for the PM in the form of scaring players and blurring the line in a potentially awkward fashion.

2. Posting to forums as characters or having characters read boards such as Unfiction can work if the game is properly designed, the act of reading the boards will not put unwanted or unnecessary out-of-game information into the hands of a character, and a proper rationale is produced by the team creating the game.

3. I do believe this should be left up to the PM, as they are the sole owners of their games and no one has any right to enforce any set of rules except for them. (If it doesn't work, then don't play. Loss of players will set straight any PM faster than anything else.)

4. If the PM does wish to treat an out of game area, such as Unfiction, as in-game, then the move must be properly planned and executed in a timely fashion that makes logical sense in both logic and time-wise, such as a trace may take a couple days to properly run.

5. Spying or using out-of-game forums does not work for every game storyline, as most of the time the information is not duely required in the hands of a character, and spying or using out-of-game forums in the wrong way can truly wreck a game unless the move is properly planned out and logically made.

If I think of anything else... well... I'll edit this post.

[Varin]

From the player's side of things, I don't mind being spied here on at all as long as I don't get slapped in the face with the fact that I'm being spied on here.

For me, there's a difference between a PM "bending" the game or story a certain way because they read how the players are responding on Unfiction and a PM using things said by players against them in an obvious way.

Examples: It's ok to decide not to kill off a character because a PM reads that the players love that character. It's not ok for a character to quote things the players have said only on this forum.

[yanka]

I'm sure you have the best of intentions for people who want to try out game-making, but, really, how can you encourage such people to break the rules of this board while advising them on a game to be played on this board?

Basically,

Posting as characters to boards such as Unfiction will cause your characters' accounts termination on Unfiction, which will be made very public and ugly (albeit to varying degrees). If you persist, your IP will likely get banned as well. The admins will be annoyed, people here will laugh at you (to put it mildly), and you will lose access to a large chunk of your player base. What kind of advise is that?

[konamouse]

If a game is obviously happening in the world in current timeframe, and in the realm of what CBrennan posted (about the characters laughing about the players thinking that they are playing a game but really aren't - that was so smart!), that could be one reason to mention Unforum in the gameplay. However, this would not work if the game is taking place in the future, the characters don't think of us as "playing a game", or a definitely alternative world.

But, the guidelines of this particular forum, Unforum, is that it is safe from ingame characters posting and utilizing it as ingame. To allow uninhibited sharing of information and puzzlesolving in the collaborative effort.
For alternative forum interaction, other places exist (thanks to Nash & IU) or the game itself creates that (various blogs allowed players to interact with the characters).

[Phaedra]

As usual, yanka, you've said it concisely and eloquently.

[C_Brennan]

[GuyP]

So, Colin, what you're basically saying is:

There is a way to have characters read the discussion on Unforums and have it dramatically improve the game. You just have no idea what that method is.

Well, I can't think of any ideas either, I'm afraid. However, to me that suggests There Is No Spoon Fun Way To Do It.

I question whether it creates a sense of paranoia. We know these games are, in actual fact, games. So when games intrude on a space that's collectively held as OOG, it doesn't make me go "oooh, spooky! they're watching..." It makes me go "ooooh, annoying! the PM has forgotten to take their lithium!"

[Varin]

[rowan]

I only have one word to say on where this discussion is going (although I'm sure if you looked hard enuf you can find my opinion on the matter):

Daemonworks

[Phaedra]

[xnbomb]

Whose house?

[colin]

[PokeKiller]

[rowan]

It's a good thing that this Meta thread didn't exist at that point in time. How would the characters reacted to someone claiming to have created them just to push the boundaries of their universe? Or would a PXC type of twist occurred, with the PM suddenly becoming ingame? </sarcasm>

The point of the matter is - any one who frequents these boards does so with the expectation that this board is OOG. It gives them the freedom to post what they want, when they want, without fear of reprisal from anyone in the game world. They can bitch, moan, gush, or swoon over anyone they want and not have it adversely affect their game play.

It does pain me to admit that yes, at least one game has breached this OOG barrier in a way that was not offensive to the players. But there is a huge difference between my example and PG.

[GabrielBlade]

Re: Games people play