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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
[META][REDUX] Unfiction is Out of Game
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

 		[META][REDUX] Unfiction is Out of Game
Max Steele wrote:
And I'll say it again, the game isn't flawed if the PMs use this forum to gain information. Unfiction has no control over what a PM can and cannot do. If they want to use info on here in the game, they can.

There is no "ARG RULE" that all PMs must follow.


There may be no "ARG Rule" but there certainly is a gentleman's agreement. We hold these boards to be a) out of game and b) for collaboration and cooperation purposes. If players want to play secret teams, they should take their teams elsewhere. If PMs want to use information from here in-game that they cannot obtain in an in-game fashion, then the game IS fundamentally flawed and should be treated as such. Internal consistency is extremely important to an ARG.


Edit: Ganked from this thread. Flame on! -SpaceBass
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:01 pm
Last edited by SpaceBass on Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tsondie21
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Joined: 01 Jun 2005
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SpaceBass wrote:
Max Steele wrote:
And I'll say it again, the game isn't flawed if the PMs use this forum to gain information. Unfiction has no control over what a PM can and cannot do. If they want to use info on here in the game, they can.

There is no "ARG RULE" that all PMs must follow.


There may be no "ARG Rule" but there certainly is a gentleman's agreement. We hold these boards to be a) out of game and b) for collaboration and cooperation purposes. If players want to play secret teams, they should take their teams elsewhere. If PMs want to use information from here in-game that they cannot obtain in an in-game fashion, then the game IS fundamentally flawed and should be treated as such. Internal consistency is extremely important to an ARG.



true dat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:16 pm
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Max Steele
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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SpaceBass wrote:
Max Steele wrote:
And I'll say it again, the game isn't flawed if the PMs use this forum to gain information. Unfiction has no control over what a PM can and cannot do. If they want to use info on here in the game, they can.

There is no "ARG RULE" that all PMs must follow.


There may be no "ARG Rule" but there certainly is a gentleman's agreement. We hold these boards to be a) out of game and b) for collaboration and cooperation purposes. If players want to play secret teams, they should take their teams elsewhere. If PMs want to use information from here in-game that they cannot obtain in an in-game fashion, then the game IS fundamentally flawed and should be treated as such. Internal consistency is extremely important to an ARG.


Fundamentally flawed by whose view? Unfiction?

Unfiction does not set the standard or the ruleset for ARGs. If a PM uses the info they get here in their ARG, then they does it. There's nothing wrong about it. The people running UF may not like it, but it doesn't make the ARG "flawed" because of it.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:54 pm
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strife777
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 		Unfiction doesn't make the ruleset, but neither do you. Its a matter of etiquette, where most PM's choose to respect Unfiction's OOG stance, and if they don't, I'm guessing they won't respect the players either and I wouldn't want anything to do with them.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:03 pm
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Max Steele
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 456
strife777 wrote:
Unfiction doesn't make the ruleset, but neither do you. Its a matter of etiquette, where most PM's choose to respect Unfiction's OOG stance, and if they don't, I'm guessing they won't respect the players either and I wouldn't want anything to do with them.


Well, I think that's a contradiction, because people make ARGs for the players.

What about people not respecting the PMs in the ARG they're playing?

The email sent from Deep Sleep said NOT to share this information, yet here are people sharing it.

So where's the line drawn for responsiblity?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:07 pm
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SpaceBass
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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Max Steele wrote:
The email sent from Deep Sleep said NOT to share this information, yet here are people sharing it.


If the PMs don't want certain information to be shared, there is only one solution: do not make it available to anyone. It is absolutely impossible to guarantee a secret otherwise.

Besides, instructing players on a large scale not to share information is antithetical to the entire collaborative community philosophy that underlies ARGs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:36 pm
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strife777
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 		Respectfully, I disagree. This isn't "Alternate Reality Game On Tracks". If we did everything the PM's want, and only what they want, then why don't we watch a movie. The ARG is based on the reality of the players having the choice. We were asked not to share, sure, but choosing to share with each other isn't disrespecting the PM's, its making a choice in the game, and the PM's are free to do what they will with it INSIDE the games context. If I share my Sandman email, I run the risk of someone else entering my personal code into the website. If that happens, BOOM, they have proof inside the game, I'm thrown into carosuel and lose all my login information. They do NOT have to scour an OOG board and rain on everybody who wants to play a collabritive game.

I had a similar problem when I helped to write riddle contests. People started working together on riddles and problems geared towards the individual, and of course things were getting solved much quicker than intended. All trying to squash collaboration would just drive it further in the shadows, and all we would lose as a PM team was the feedback on where the players were, what problems they were having, and how they felt. You'll never stop people working together, as much as you seem to want to. I can pass information via IM, e-mail, a private forum, as much as I could here. The difference is the culture here is for collaboration, and I personally welcome it. If you really wanted to play non-collabritively, what are you doing on a collabritive forum in the first place?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:37 pm
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Max Steele
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 456
strife777 wrote:
Respectfully, I disagree. This isn't "Alternate Reality Game On Tracks". If we did everything the PM's want, and only what they want, then why don't we watch a movie. The ARG is based on the reality of the players having the choice. We were asked not to share, sure, but choosing to share with each other isn't disrespecting the PM's, its making a choice in the game, and the PM's are free to do what they will with it INSIDE the games context. If I share my Sandman email, I run the risk of someone else entering my personal code into the website. If that happens, BOOM, they have proof inside the game, I'm thrown into carosuel and lose all my login information. They do NOT have to scour an OOG board and rain on everybody who wants to play a collabritive game.

I had a similar problem when I helped to write riddle contests. People started working together on riddles and problems geared towards the individual, and of course things were getting solved much quicker than intended. All trying to squash collaboration would just drive it further in the shadows, and all we would lose as a PM team was the feedback on where the players were, what problems they were having, and how they felt. You'll never stop people working together, as much as you seem to want to. I can pass information via IM, e-mail, a private forum, as much as I could here. The difference is the culture here is for collaboration, and I personally welcome it. If you really wanted to play non-collabritively, what are you doing on a collabritive forum in the first place?


Alright, I'll drop the issue.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:45 pm
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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 		Re: [META][REDUX] Unfiction is Out of Game
SpaceBass wrote:
Edit: Ganked from this thread. Flame on! -SpaceBass


You're encouraging us to flame?

I expend all this energy restraining myself so as to avoid strewing the entrails of various idiots (of which I don't necessarily mean to imply that you are one, Max Steele) all over your nice forum (figuratively speaking, of course), to prevent any smackdowns or mockery from straying into the realm of the savage or humiliating, and now you're encouraging us to flame?!

But....but....

<head implodes>
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:46 pm
Last edited by Phaedra on Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Max Steele wrote:
Alright, I'll drop the issue.


Oh, don't do that!

I'm still waiting for confirmation that I read SpaceBass' post correctly. But if I did, I don't want to waste this opportunity to flame someone. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:47 pm
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SpaceBass
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 		Feel free to flame me any time you want, Phaedra. Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:53 pm
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Phaedra
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SpaceBass wrote:
Feel free to flame me any time you want, Phaedra. Shocked


Oh, feh, but most of the time I agree with you. There's no irritation factor there.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:59 pm
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weephun
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Phaedra wrote:
SpaceBass wrote:
Feel free to flame me any time you want, Phaedra. Shocked


Oh, feh, but most of the time I agree with you. There's no irritation factor there.


pssst SpaceBass, just mention that belly-dancing is sexy, that'll get you roasted up nice and tender Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:06 pm
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GuyP
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 		"GAH!" and also, ahem.

OK, PM's, I know you might think it's innovative (see also "boundary-breaking", "paradigm-redefining" and "OMG CHANGING THE GENRE 4EVA!!!111!!") to treat UF as in-game. After all, I'm sure your characters can use Google.

But for mercy's sake, talk about taking a steaming crap on your own doorstep. You have all your players working together on the game you've created, when suddenly you create conditions wherein it's *impossible* for them to collaborate on it. They can't even react and post a logon and password to a new, secret discussion area, because hey - your characters can read that too, right?

Uber-realistic? Yes. Uber-dumb? Even more so.

And may I add that were you to create games with two teams in competition with one another, then it may be wise to provide your own password protected fora?

(Edit: Fare thee well, nonsensical grammar!)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:17 pm
Last edited by GuyP on Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yanka
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MaxSteele wrote:
Fundamentally flawed by whose view? Unfiction?

Fundamentally flawed to any rational person.

SpaceBass wrote:
If PMs want to use information from here in-game that they cannot obtain in an in-game fashion, then the game IS fundamentally flawed and should be treated as such. Internal consistency is extremely important to an ARG.

It's very simple logic, really. This is a place where people talk about the game: the voicing of the characters, the writing style of the PMs, the press about the game and the links/paralllels to whatever movie/game/event/etc. the game is promoting (in cases where it applies). People can say stuff like "I don't think Durga will be appearing in Halo2", "I recognize Kristen's voice" or "Jeez, this game sucks." If the game still maintains that it is not a game, then to it a place like unfiction cannot exist at all, otherwise you'll have a paradox and Durga will have to go "Whuh? I'm being voiced by someone named Kristen?" I think this is what Space means by "internal consistency". Any game that insists that it is not a game cannot intersect with a place where it is a game - it can only be one or the other - or it really is fundamentally flawed.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:18 pm
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