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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[LOCKED] [Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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Danives
Boot


Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 47

Oh, and entropy anagramed is "TRYOPEN" Smile

Dan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:10 pm
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Stiltskin
Greenhorn

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 7
Location: England

Not got the card, but I wonder if the comment to the Djinn is a little nod at 'the Beast'?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:44 pm
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Jakeo
Decorated

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Edinburgh

my understanding of solitaire is that the cipher text has no inherent distribution properties associated with it. Roughly speaking that means that each letter should occur with equal opportunity.

the purpose of the starred joker in solitaire is to provide a unique set of 54 cards (27*2)

with the heat sensitive characters removed there are 108 chars. It is impossible to encode a deck of cards with only a single character, but a complete deck could be encoded in 108 characters.

What am I getting at? I don't believe its a solitaire cipher. Within the 108 regular characters the letter 'D' *never* occurs. If it were a solitaire cipher it would occur roughly 4 times.

There is an uneven distribution of letters in the ciphertext. Its not enough to be a monoalphabetic substitution, but it could certainly be polyalphabetic. At a guess it could be a period of 4 or 5.

I'm looking at a few other ideas based on some of the more famous crypto puzzles around, but I'd encourage people to consider possibilities other than the solitaire cipher. [/b]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:41 am
Last edited by Jakeo on Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ramsfan
Decorated

Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 232
Location: holmfirth, yorks

Oh good, that saves me a job. I was going to ask if anyone wanted me to transcribe the Perl script from Cryptonomicon. That was more out of general interest, as we've been told we don't need extraneous info. Neal Stephenson's own website suggests I might be infringing copyright and that it's unnecessary as you can obtain the solitaire cipher off the web as we have. It would also be a bit of a slog. Even the first edition of the book got it wrong. I did wonder however if it would help with the business of reordering the initial pack from the usual starting order to that in the top of the card. I can't rearrange the suits in the applet, so I've been trying passwords like made in china, hongkong (like empire made, made in hong kong used to be interchangeable with made in china) and shanghai with the original pack order. I don't understand anything about perl so can't do it myself with the book. I tried scanning in the page, but it was too big a file and OCR didn't recognise the symbols.
Inspired by the above I googled chinese ciphers. I found an interesting page about unsolved codes, including gold bars with chinese cryptograms and buried treasure in a lake in Nova Scotia. I got excited about the columnar transposition cipher as it seemed to fit. However using made in china as the password didn't reveal anything. I did think it might generate a load of rubbish with the name of the djinn worm inventor in the middle, but no such luck. Interesting though.
I've been going off the idea of the significance of the bikes. If you look at the original card design the corners are a bit like swastikas. I wondered if the designers wanted to avoid those and a bike image seemed the most appropriate. Of course they didn't need to use the bike design at all, so that might be of significance. I'm increasingly inclined to think that made in china is a pass phrase and that the outside letters hide the message length as described in the transposition cipher site.
_________________
The best therapy is shrink rapped

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:59 am
Last edited by ramsfan on Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Danives
Boot


Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 47

Just to those who think shuffled can only be solved with other cards (e.g. the cards with playing card numbers on em):

Quote:
Hello Dan,

Thanks for your email.

You do not need any other puzzle cards in order to solve card 243-
shuffled.

Regards,

Perplex City Customer Services


Now just waiting from an email from Reed! lol

Dan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:44 am
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angelsk
Boot


Joined: 21 Dec 2005
Posts: 67
Location: London, UK

What email did you use to ask questions about the cards?
_________________
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http://www.pod1.com


PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:42 am
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Jakeo
Decorated

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Edinburgh

Danives wrote:
Just to those who think shuffled can only be solved with other cards (e.g. the cards with playing card numbers on em):

Quote:
Hello Dan,

Thanks for your email.

You do not need any other puzzle cards in order to solve card 243-
shuffled.

Regards,

Perplex City Customer Services



What *exactly* did you ask them. It seems odd that they should be specific enough so say 'other puzzle cards' if what you asked was 'do we need any other cards'

nes pas?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:36 pm
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Danives
Boot


Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 47

In response to both posts, I used the email "cards@perplexcity.com" to send them the following message:

Quote:
Hi, I have been deliberating on this card for a very long time now, and me and friends are comming to the concluesion that this puzzle has to be solved by collecting and examining other perplex city cards. Is it possible if you could say if the card is able to be solved "as it is" just by having the card, or are we going to have to use other things to do with perplex city and the equipment (e.g. other perplex city cards), or know more about perplex city, to solve it. Thank-you very much -

Daniel Ives


Thought it was clear enough Smile

Dan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:42 pm
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padge
Boot

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 43

Has all this been covered?

I realise I'm joining this a bit late, but do you know about the 'Earth Issues a Challenge' Letter from Sentinel

If you search Google for some of the card characters (i.e. WBBMC HGFIB) you can see an old cached sentinel letters page. The letter reads:

Quote:
EARTH ISSUES A CHALLENGE
In response to Cora Fuentana's letter, I sympathize with her wanting to hear more about the PCAG.
It does seem as though the sentinel should be fFocusing [sic] a bit more on this exciting cornerstone
of Perplexian society. However if she thinks these are "tiny solves by third-rate amateurs", she
should perhaps attempt some of the puzzle cards herself.
[EODMF XRUTH] WBBMC HGFIB LXCQY WEZFL ITHPJ LFHWY ETKWY LJOTY YNGYJ BIOGI FUVMR
XIHGU RAGXH NQHRS XAWHU FJTAM SMMOS MVBAA KPGVV WXOVM YKZPL LUL [FHURG IFULP] ?

Scott Myers, Earth


Do you know about this already, and is it of any help?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:28 am
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Jakeo
Decorated

Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Edinburgh

Yes.

This was our very own Scott issuing a rebuttal to a letter that complained about how easy the scribes were making the puzzles. You should be able to find that letter in earlier sentinel archives.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:32 am
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padge
Boot

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 43

summary

I'm a bit late joining this one....

It looks to me that all you are missing is the pass phrase?

What I've gleamed from the topic so far:

    * The text is encrypted using a solitaire cipher.
    * The 10 chars at each end disappear under heat, so they are not part of the encrypted message
    * The hint 'outward looks leave you cold' bit is referring to the heat sensitive letters
    * The pass phrase is something to do with the hint 'if entropy wins'
    * The initial solitaire deck is in 'standard' order


So it's just the pass phrase that is missing.

Or am I missing something?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:57 am
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doomsdayred
Veteran

Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Nottingham, UK

I've been doing a little research on the card author Garnet and during the leaked emails there is a conversation that refers to a rambler x50.

Have a look : http://wiki.incognitus.net/ppc/index.php/Leaked_E-mails

I thought maybe this could be some sort of key or perhaps even the link to the motorcycle but I don't know anything about bikes so...

The trasncript is pretty much as follows:

Code:
9.38 - How are you feeling this morning?
9.40 - Wishing my key didn't make so much noise?
9.41 - I thought you had the Rambler X50? Absolutely silent running?
9.42 - Still. Too. Loud.
9.43 - Ah. Yes. I see. Still, it was a good night.
9.44 - Yeah, thanks for coming! Shame no one else from the team
         made it - we were on fire last night!
9.45 - Literally, at one point, as I recall.
9.46 - Oh yeah, cheers for chucking your lemonade over that. :-)
9.47 - No problem. This kind of emergency is just what they train us for in
          the Defence Forces. That and escorting the drunk-and-disorderly   
          home.
9.48 - Yeah, cheers for that too! Don't remember a huge amount after
          that third Mazy Slammer....
9.50 - Oh don't worry, you were perfectly civil if a bit emphatic on the
          subject of the things you insisted I didn't tell anyone else ever
          ever ever.
10.12 - What -things- exactly?
10.13 - Ah, that would be telling.
10.14 - No, seriously, what -things-?
10.15 - Remember, I've been trained to withstand torture. You have no
           need to fear. Your secret is safe with me, Tristan....
10.16 - I'm going to be buying you drinks from now until forever, aren't
           I?
10.17 - Oh Yes.


The most interesting points from that are Garnet's reference to his "key" at 9.40 and at 9.41 the reference "rambler X50"

If this makes any sense to anyone, don't be shy speak up.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:57 am
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doomsdayred
Veteran

Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: summary

padge wrote:
I'm a bit late joining this one....

    * The text is encrypted using a solitaire cipher.
    * The 10 chars at each end disappear under heat, so they are not part of the encrypted message
    * The hint 'outward looks leave you cold' bit is referring to the heat sensitive letters
    * The pass phrase is something to do with the hint 'if entropy wins'
    * The initial solitaire deck is in 'standard' order

So it's just the pass phrase that is missing?


Hi Padge. Welcome.

It's mostly guess work at this stage although most people seem convinced this is the solitaire cipher, others have mentioned it could be the Klondike cipher. The Klondike has been disregarded by virtually everyone but it keeps popping up so there could be something in it.

There is also the possibility that the code is in Pinyin which is the English translation of Chinese (this has come from the made in china text on the side of the box).

We also know that the laws of thermodynamics could be involved which would put the heat sensitive letters back into the code as heat and cold shouldn't be able to effect a closed system i.e. sealed deck of cards.

A handful of people are trying to work out what the motorbike on the deck has to do with the whole thing.

Essentially though, yes we don't have a clue over the pass code.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:16 am
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padge
Boot

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 43

Re: summary

doomsdayred wrote:
A handful of people are trying to work out what the motorbike on the deck has to do with the whole thing.


Isn't that what the Rambler X50 is? A motorbike? Maybe that is the key.

I'm currently trying to get the cypher program running so I can try some pass phrases myself. Do you know what the correct default deck order should be. Is it H C D S?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:50 am
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doomsdayred
Veteran

Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 107
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: summary

padge wrote:
doomsdayred wrote:
A handful of people are trying to work out what the motorbike on the deck has to do with the whole thing.


Isn't that what the Rambler X50 is? A motorbike? Maybe that is the key.

I'm currently trying to get the cypher program running so I can try some pass phrases myself. Do you know what the correct default deck order should be. Is it H C D S?


I think it should actually be Clubs hearts diamonds spades. See here for details http://www.schneier.com/solitaire.html

I can't find any link between a motorcycle and the Rambler reference though!!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:25 am
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