Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Mon Nov 11, 2024 3:18 pm
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » Rest in Pieces
GypsySoft Post-Mortem by the PM
Moderators: imbri
View previous topicView next topic
Page 4 of 5 [72 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
Lewis the Second
Decorated

Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 198

 		"The best, most creative way to anounce your rabbithole to the world is not to announce it to people who already know all the signs and what to look for. The Beast's trailer credits and press posters, MU's Matrix fan-targetting, and ILB's Halo fan-targetting are really great examples."

I'd agree with you there, those would be the best ways. Although, remember, this guy's fifteen. Getting his trailhead pinned at the end of a Hollywood film would be quite awkward.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:29 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992
Flidget Jerome wrote:
I could see this eventually turning into a trailer-type thing, though. How many trailers have you seen that were a lot more fun than their movies?


* Ehsan points at syzygy

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:44 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
rowan
Unfictologist

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966
Lewis the Second wrote:
"The best, most creative way to anounce your rabbithole to the world is not to announce it to people who already know all the signs and what to look for. The Beast's trailer credits and press posters, MU's Matrix fan-targetting, and ILB's Halo fan-targetting are really great examples."

I'd agree with you there, those would be the best ways. Although, remember, this guy's fifteen. Getting his trailhead pinned at the end of a Hollywood film would be quite awkward.


I dont think the point was try getting your trailhead piggybacked onto a movie. The fact that these trailheads worked so well is that they were so sudden, so unexpected. Another good example is Urban Hunt. They used some press releases to make it appear they were looking for people for a new game show. It wasn't until you attempted to sign up that you realized this was for an ARG. People are much happier (and much more impressed) when they trip over a rabbithole rather than having it thrust in their face.
_________________
follow @arg_deaddrop on twitter

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:45 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		student films
HaxanMike wrote:
Quote:
High school students and college students make films, but no one on the Internet seems to get upset about that.


Heh, I've been making that argument for need for an indie/student designation for games for a while now. I started two threads in Meta to talk about what we can do to support grassroots games, using film and other media as examples. Nice to see that you see this the same way.

What I am not sure you quite understand, Mike, is the true amount of harm that games imploding have on the whole community. It took me a while to grasp how serious this problem is for us.

This is where ARGS and indie/student films part company. Watching a series of even really terrible student films won't stop people from ever going to the movies again -though they might give up student films. Also -the film is probably designated in some way to indicate it is a student film. That doesn't work here, yet, but I hope we can get to that point soon. Knowing that a game is PMed by a student allows the audience to make a choice from the beginning of the game and also effects their expectations. Wouldn't you feel differently if an adult had posted the post-mortem that started this thread instead of a teenager? But allowing teenagers to just keep making games that fail isn't working for us.

The stakes, for now, are higher here. People join the community, dedicate themselves to a game, that game fails, maybe they try another, that game fails, then at some point they get very frustrated and leave. Right now the number of players that are willing to try a grassroots game is dwindling. The number of repeated, failed games makes even dedicated players like Addlepated and myself move from a willingness and eagerness to support new grassroots games, to a wait and see approach. You can look at the threads for any failed game and the META they inspire... check out the current status of City of Domes...how do you think those players feel? The PMs have done their best, no doubt, but the players are hanging in ARG limbo.


PMs need a place to learn to create games. We don't provide that now, although Project Gamelight is an excellent start to a solution. Though you wouldn't get it from reading my aghast post of disbelief that a PM would ignore all the harm caused by other failed games, I believe we need to nurture creativity and help these PMs learn to tell stories.

Just the same, PMs must take seriously the responsibility of launching a game and not disregard the problems that other games have caused. Yet, they continue to do so. It sounds harsh, but the harm done is real.

So a failed student ARG, at this point in time, has consequences way beyond the failed student film. If at the beginning of film as a genre, every time people went to see a movie the film broke irrepairably, they would stop going. Some right away, but eventually everyone, until a better plan was created. Failed games are like the irrepairably broken films. They hurt the community there is no simpler way to put it.

I have been trying to think of constructive ways to address this and I think we are making progress. I think we need a way to nurture creativity, which goes back to my indie/student ARG point. Any ideas you have are welcomed.
_________________
I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:54 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
JoeOE18
Unfettered


Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 301
Location: UK
Quote:
The stakes, for now, are higher here. People join the community, dedicate themselves to a game, that game fails, maybe they try another, that game fails, then at some point they get very frustrated and leave.

I can only talk from my own case but my first ARG was ourcolony, through which I discovered UF and promptly left ourcolony. The first two ARG's I played after that failed. But it didn't really put me off, I just saw it as a thing that happens. Maybe its just because I'm fairly new I see the implosion of grassroots games not, perhaps, as the norm but as something which I am used to happening. Since the beginning I've played to other ARG's which I've enjoyed immensely.

I'm just saying perhaps the point of view of new and old players is different and what the old players think is having an effect on the new players actually isn't. But again I can only talk about myself.
_________________
Hello_!wiiiiz

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:14 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia
JoeOE18 wrote:
Quote:
The stakes, for now, are higher here. People join the community, dedicate themselves to a game, that game fails, maybe they try another, that game fails, then at some point they get very frustrated and leave.

I can only talk from my own case but my first ARG was ourcolony, through which I discovered UF and promptly left ourcolony. The first two ARG's I played after that failed. But it didn't really put me off, I just saw it as a thing that happens. Maybe its just because I'm fairly new I see the implosion of grassroots games not, perhaps, as the norm but as something which I am used to happening. Since the beginning I've played to other ARG's which I've enjoyed immensely.

I'm just saying perhaps the point of view of new and old players is different and what the old players think is having an effect on the new players actually isn't. But again I can only talk about myself.
This is where it gets hard to judge. The rough figure thrown around is only 10% of players "actively partipate" meaning they post to forums or make their presence known. The other 90% lurk. It's the silent majority that you need to worry about. Obviously it's hard to get data on these players. The fact that they don't do anything tells you that they aren't as involved in the game, and therefore will loose interest more quickly.

(This is pertinent for marketing as your target audience will diminish quickly)
/me pulls out normal distribution graphs etc etc.....

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:36 am
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL

 		Re: student films
rose wrote:
HaxanMike wrote:
Quote:
High school students and college students make films, but no one on the Internet seems to get upset about that.


Hey, Rose, first off, FLMutant = Brian Clark Smile

rose wrote:
What I am not sure you quite understand, Mike, is the true amount of harm that games imploding have on the whole community. It took me a while to grasp how serious this problem is for us.


I totally get that, Rose. I think my perspective is a little different because I suspect this is a temporary thing. If there were only 10-12 films made a year and everyone who was into film rushed to those 12 and a significant percentage of them were so crap horrible you were afraid people would go, "Films suck, I'm never going to another film" ... there would be definitely a problem.

The problem changes once you get to 1400 commercial and indie/commercial releases a year -- now the problem is not having enough time to consume all of it, and needing recommendations to guide you to what's worth consuming. As that happens, the "formula for the art form" becomes more and more systemitized ... and you start finding that the outsider communities (students, indies, underground, alternate) are the source of the most divergent quality and most surprising new ideas.

So part of this dynamic will always be there, and part of it is the youth of the genre.

Rose wrote:
Also -the film is probably designated in some way to indicate it is a student film. That doesn't work here, yet, but I hope we can get to that point soon. Knowing that a game is PMed by a student allows the audience to make a choice from the beginning of the game and also effects their expectations.


Not always, but I know what you're saying. But if you think of "student" as just a part of a bigger group of "cultural outsiders" it gets a little fuzzier. At some point, the whole of the interactive fiction movement are cultural outsiders, so the indie in me wants to see as much diversity of expression as possible, as it's a healthy sign of a community of creators forming ... and an enviroment where access to creating isn't gatekeepered because of the need for huge budget, or huge manpower, or both.

Rose wrote:
Wouldn't you feel differently if an adult had posted the post-mortem that started this thread instead of a teenager? But allowing teenagers to just keep making games that fail isn't working for us.


Actually, I would have been equally impressed, as the general attitude of the post didn't seem to have much to do with his age and alot more to do with the situation of single-handedly playing PM in the ARG genre. I do have a soft spot for self-empowered young people, though, as it is part of my general attraction to risk takers.

But I totally get the core of your frustration, and it's a multipronged thing about both the personal investment someone makes in really playing an ARG and a collective worry about what "failures" do to the goal of building a collective genre fan base.

Rose wrote:
Though you wouldn't get it from reading my aghast post of disbelief that a PM would ignore all the harm caused by other failed games, I believe we need to nurture creativity and help these PMs learn to tell stories.


I don't for a second believe that anyone who would take the time to care about the genre's growth would then be against nurturing creativity. I think that's an important point to underscore for the whole community. Incubation of new PMs is an important task to focus on, but so is the incubation of new ARGers (IMHO).

Because part of the equation here is the audience expecting so much from an ARG, which is why this debate ends up in the "your mileage may vary" territory.

Fascinating stuff, though, guys. Not many places where new genres are getting birthed and there are forums to discuss how to guide and shape that emergence.


Brian

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:39 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
JoeOE18
Unfettered


Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 301
Location: UK
colin wrote:
This is where it gets hard to judge. The rough figure thrown around is only 10% of players "actively partipate" meaning they post to forums or make their presence known. The other 90% lurk. It's the silent majority that you need to worry about. Obviously it's hard to get data on these players. The fact that they don't do anything tells you that they aren't as involved in the game, and therefore will loose interest more quickly.

(This is pertinent for marketing as your target audience will diminish quickly)
* colin pulls out normal distribution graphs etc etc.....


Ok that makes sense, I didn't consider the lurkers in all this. Can't understand how anyone could stand not to get involved myself Razz
_________________
Hello_!wiiiiz

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:09 am
 View user's profile AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		The problem with using "film" as an example is that going to a movie is, on average, a 2 hour investment. And if you are wishywashy about a particular film, you can always wait for friends to see it, then decide to go see it the following week. Or just wait for it to come out on DVD or cable.

With ARGs, you can't really wait too long (playing catchup is a pain), and then you invest time and energy into the story (over days or even weeks). Then, if there is an implosion, you feel betrayed and frustrated.

Maybe this is a better analogy: It starts out with you going to a party and meeting a great person. You spend time together, you fall in love, you have a great romance and every thing is so wonderful until you, uhm, hit the 'climax' of the relationship and then you both know it has to end. But you end it with very good memories (and sometimes a few keepsakes aka 'swag'). So you go to another party, seeking that same thrill. Maybe you get to experience that all over again. But one time you fall in love with a new person after one night, and they might spend a day or two with you, then *poof*, they disappear, don't answer the phone or mail, and sometimes even move away. You feel ripped off or scammed. Maybe this happens again. This makes you start feeling gun shy. Then you think about being more frugal with your social life. You might meet another person, but you are hesitant to spend time with that person, worried they might also dump you. Maybe you only have time for one party a year and you don't want to waste it on a possible scum. Or you get to the point that you don't even go to the party, because you are so afraid of rejection. Then you just become an old maid and raise 100 cats while chatting on the internet late at night.

Disclaimer:
/me is happily married for 10 years
_________________
'squeek'
r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:12 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		Going back to a comment a few posts back ...

I think it's less about re-creating War and Peace and more about being truly committed to a product that is cohesive and consistent and immersive, in terms of the amount of work and energy needed to sustain an ARG.

Metacortechs lasted less than two months, but that universe was all I thought about, every spare second that I was not off doing essential life stuff. It was an earworm in my head, it was in every breath I exhaled, and it was paint and dirt permanently wedged under my fingernails.

So, when puppetmasters talk about all the work that goes into creating and maintaining an ARG, it's not because of the actual scope of the project, or campaign length, that they are likely saying this. It's because it's an actual emotional and mental commitment that takes far more energy than one could really guesstimate ahead of time.

In the case of Gypsysoft, it might've been really good for this PM to have a team to depend on, you know? I feel for the implosions, I really do. There have been singular moments I can remember from both Lockjaw and Metacortechs where I came fairly close to my own implosion. Puppetmastering an ARG has probably been the most rewarding, stressful, and exhilirating creative thing I've ever done in my life. It takes the very best of you and transforms it into this ... thing that has a life of its own, and it's that synaptic gap between PM and player, where the connections fire and ... yeah. It's awesome.

But it will very likely take much more from you in terms of time and energy than you thought possible.
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:35 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
Lewis the Second wrote:
Maybe I was a little harsh and exaggerative, but it certainly is happening, and it isn't healthy.

But yeah, back to the thread.


Rolling Eyes

You know, as much as you people complain about it, I just don't see it.

Are you saying that The Flaming Heart was dissed solely because it was grassroots?

Right, and look at how no one paid attention to that TheCarer thing. Rolling Eyes

Look! The grassroots games have their own forums! People are playing them! What more do you want?
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:11 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
jamesi wrote:
Lewis the Second wrote:
Come on. This is a community. Let's make it look like one.

Wow. So a community can't have differences in opinions? A community can't be disgruntled when something goes badly? I don't want to be a part of any community that conforms to one standard, or coddles the failures, thank you very much. And that probably makes me 'arrogant' and 'elitist', right? Right...


A community that allows only one opinion isn't a community at all; it's fascism.

jamesi wrote:
Abbot_Beryl wrote:
I'm just sad, that after going on about how the game is for the players, that I've only just now realized what kind of players we're trying to go out on a limb to entertain.


[snip discussion]

I'm constantly reminded what lengths the egotists will go to make their mark.


And the last defense of egotism, when faced with criticism it cannot ignore, undermine, or outright reject is always martyrdom.

Ugh.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:52 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
krystyn wrote:
That's ... not very immersive.

I wish I had a better solution, though.


Flidget Jerome wrote:
I could see this eventually turning into a trailer-type thing, though. How many trailers have you seen that were a lot more fun than their movies?


I think these two quotes hit on the main problems, but there's another one I see.

As much as I hate the movie The Forgotten, I would have hated it less if I hadn't seen a trailer that gave away all the "surprise" plot reveals in the first 3/4 of the movie.

A lot of people said that The Island was predictable.

But we'd all seen the previews. Kristen Rutherford saw it before there were previews and in response to Ozy_y2k's review wrote:

Kristen wrote:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I told you, I told you, I told you! When I went to that event thingie or whatever - we didn't know ANYTHING about the story or the movie (except who was in it) and it was INTERESTING! AND COMPELLING! We couldn't figure out where they were! Or why they were talking a bit infantile at first -- so I was HELLA shocked when the previews started coming out and saying IT'S SCARLETT! IT'S EWAN! THEY'RE CLONES! Ummmmm I thought that was the MYSTERY of the MOVIE. My friend who worked on the costumes was shocked as well - I told her about the previews giving the whole "clone" thing away and she said - "um, but in the script that was the TWIST!". I then predicted the following: "This movie will 'suffer' thanks to marketing".


ARGs, to a large part, are about suspense. The community bonds, in part, by sharing the surprise at plot twists, by speculating about what it all means, by trying to predict what will happen next.

As I've said many times, there are many different types of puzzles in a good ARG, and one of them is the plot itself, the central question of "What is going on here?"

So, to extend the trailer analogy, I do worry about spoilers.[/spoiler]
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:01 pm
Last edited by Phaedra on Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas
Phaedra wrote:
But we'd all seen the previews. Kristen Rutherford saw it before there were previews and in response to Ozy_y2k's review wrote:

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Warn a girl about movie spoilers next time?? Crying or Very sad

Somehow I'd managed not to see any spoilers for The Island until just now.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:57 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
oliverkeers13
Entrenched


Joined: 23 May 2005
Posts: 917
Location: London, UK

 		Guess who is now not going to see a film that they wanted to see and successfully managed to evade all spoilers until now?
Evil or Very Mad
ME!!!
YOU CAN SPOILER QUOTES!
The thing that gets me angry, Phaedra, is that the quote says that the film was spoilt by giving away too much info in the advertising. THis quote, seemingly from another topic, while necessary to express your point, has, in effect, snuck up on people and ruined their enjoyment of the film.
I'm sorry if this seems aggressive, but you really pissed me off!!!! Cursing Flaming Nutter Bang Head
_________________
"You're talking last ditch, I need top drawer" V
"To be in opposition is not to be a nihilist" CH
"im iver an idiot or a genus" Dekuprince
Perplex City Video

PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:09 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 4 of 5 [72 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » Rest in Pieces
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group