Author
Message
colin
Entrenched
Joined: 13 Oct 2003 Posts: 810 Location: Australia
Time to use this place? There seems to be a pretty clear ground swell against the quality of grassroots games taking place. So far there seems to be no action as far correcting this, just alot of people getting angry. So...
There's two ways to deal with this:
1. Filter out crap games, decide that the launch was no good, that their website looks bad and cease to support them. Obviously this creates alot of bias, relies on people opinion and and isn't going to be liked.
2. We correct the problem before it begins. Which is why I post here. Looking at threads like the PM Recruitment Area There seems to be a great amount of skill in software use. A moderate amount in RPG, story writing and character development ability. and nothing relating to game design . The idea that a game is actually designed has a structure et al. seems to go flying over everyones head.
This place is called Puppet Master Guide (In Development) yet I mostly see threads about people wanting to be PMs or requesting PMs or resource that are available to PMs. How about we make this the resource for PMs, not the place that points to resources. Also in all the time I've been here it's always been "In development"...
Is it time to use this place?
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:28 am
Crowfoot
Unfettered
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 Posts: 385 Location: UK
I agree with you - there does need to be a comprehensive resource for prospective PMs somewhere along the line. When I first PM'd I felt as if I was flying blind and that was probably why I didn't do as well as I could have done. I think the same problem is facing many ARGs across the board. If new and enthusiastic PMs jump in without knowledge and context then they will either fail or do badly. It's the simple truth. It's time people banded together and actually put this guide into development.
_________________“Man is a gaming animal. He must always be trying to get the better in something or other.” - Charles Lamb.
(Player and PM = total addict)
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:59 am
Lewis the Second
Decorated
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 198
What kind of stuff would the guide need to cover? I could have a go at writing up a basic one, if people want...
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 12:07 pm
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 824 Location: Meadowbrook
Deaddrop.
_________________For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:08 pm
zeldafan8626
Decorated
Joined: 10 Jan 2005 Posts: 193 Location: Hyrule Castle
Re: Time to use this place?
colin wrote:
How about we make this the resource for PMs, not the place that points to resources.
That's what he's saying, we need to improve on the UF's PM board, not just keep telling people to go somewhere else.
Anyway, I would like to see the Puppet Master Guide devlop into something more than just a place to look for possible PM's, but more of somewhere to go if you need to find out how to change your whois, or raise some money without having to go somwhere else.
_________________Flash Expert for Hire, Programming, Animation, Web Site Design. E-mail for information.
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:13 pm
Lewis the Second
Decorated
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 198
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Deaddrop.
See, I don't think DeadDrop is that comprehensive. It's very specific. There's not a lot of general stuff about PMing and the ideals and concepts behind it.
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:24 pm
bill
Unfettered
Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 614 Location: Tampa
Lewis the Second wrote:
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Deaddrop.
See, I don't think DeadDrop is that comprehensive. It's very specific. There's not a lot of general stuff about PMing and the ideals and concepts behind it.
It's everything you want it to be and anything you care to contribute.
Personally, I'm not big on 'calling' turf since the practice went out of vogue when I entered high school. If you are happy here, participate here.
_________________
Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:46 am
Nightmare Tony
Entrenched
Joined: 07 Jun 2004 Posts: 824 Location: Meadowbrook
Actually, it more represents the PM side of things, some articles of interest and the thingfs needed for pms to help other PMs.
By the same token, I love UF and IU for the player side of things.
By having a PM area on UF, that kind of defeats the purpose of keeping what is behind the curtain secretive and unknowing. For the casual player to know the minutae of what goes on in the pm side of the world, redners the curtain to no longer exist.
Bill: I would like to vote for password protecting Deaddrop for PMs and having prospective PMs approach you in terms of access.
Where a PM wants to take his curtain is an individual call, but for the PM resources, they belong as exactly that - PM resources.
_________________For this is the place where dreams and nightmares are birthed and bred
Nightmare Park
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:04 am
addlepated
Unfictologist
Joined: 17 Aug 2003 Posts: 1885 Location: Austin, Texas
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Bill: I would like to vote for password protecting Deaddrop for PMs and having prospective PMs approach you in terms of access.
Where a PM wants to take his curtain is an individual call, but for the PM resources, they belong as exactly that - PM resources.
I strongly disagree. I think potential PMs have every right (and even responsibility) to see just exactly what they're in for. A lazy PM-wannabe might decide that he doesn't need to get a password for Deaddrop, he'll just jump right in.
Transparency is also important in terms of potential sponsors, IMO.
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 5:02 am
colin
Entrenched
Joined: 13 Oct 2003 Posts: 810 Location: Australia
I wouldn't have a problem with everything taking place at deaddrop, but that begs the question of why have this forums here? both sites are part of the argn....
I also wouldn't want to see password protection. It should be about how to create a game, not what games people are creating. Passwording the place would be like saying "you can't learn to make games until you are making a game" -- this doesn't really help people figure out if they can make a game. Limiting knowledge is not benificial.
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:13 am
FLmutant
Decorated
Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 244 Location: Orlando, FL
I'd be all for getting involved in such an effort where ever it might be housed, but I want to kind of agree with both sides here. We need a public resource as PMs and a way incubate the "next generation" of PMs, but we also probably need a private, invite-only place where stuff that people don't feel comfortable having public can live.
I think we'll need some kind of Den Mother, though. "Whatever people want to contribute" will be hard for people to get involved with.
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:52 am
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?
Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 2716 Location: State of Denial
Nightmare Tony wrote:
Bill: I would like to vote for password protecting Deaddrop for PMs and having prospective PMs approach you in terms of access. .
Tony, besides the problem Addelpated mentioned (the PM's we want to get help not getting access) there is also the problem of having every Tom, Dick and Troll getting one just to say they have access to something other people don't.
Personally speaking I think UF, Deaddrop, ARGN, and others do just fine keeping the PM related info in a separate area from the Player related info. You don't want to get that detailed view of what it is like to PM, then don't read the Meta sections, including this one . That way even the people who aren't certain if they will ever run a game can learn something if they desire. Or ask questions that others can discuss on topics that may come up at a future time (i.e. a recent discussion on using terrorism as a plot element).
Just like other messages; if you don't want to see this information, don't read this section of the site. ^shurgs^
I just don't think we need a "special" website for it.
_________________Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:34 pm
bill
Unfettered
Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 614 Location: Tampa
FLmutant wrote:
I'd be all for getting involved in such an effort where ever it might be housed, but I want to kind of agree with both sides here. We need a public resource as PMs and a way incubate the "next generation" of PMs, but we also probably need a private, invite-only place where stuff that people don't feel comfortable having public can live.
I think we'll need some kind of Den Mother, though. "Whatever people want to contribute" will be hard for people to get involved with.
Regarding password access, I have no intention of blocking anyone from accessing PM related information. It seems self-defeating to do so and the decisionmaking for approving access would only breed illwill and fuel unneeded controversy. For specific projects, Deaddrop has provided private areas for PM teams in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
In my opinion, the PM Guide should contain enough practical information to help any PM, be they new or experienced. My point by saying that DD is whatever you want it to be was simply that if you have an area of interest or knowledge in the realm of puppetmastering, we offer a venue to explore it. As much as I'd like to address every aspect of the subject myself, I can't. So, I encourage contributions. I'd love to see other PuppetMasters get involved by sharing their experience and mentoring potential indie productions.
My goal with Deaddrop has always been focusing on lowering the barrier to entry without lowering the bar of quality.
By offering free hosting to grassroots PMs and pulling together other resources, I've always hoped to enable those PMs to focus on what would make their experience shine rather than seeing them struggle with mundane issues like "How can I get rid of these ****ing popup ads on my websites?"
You'll see more resources as time permits, including some unprecedented items I can't really talk about right now.
For now, understand that regardless of what other people do, I'll continue tilting at those windmills by doing what I can to help others. I want to see people who are in this for the joy of doing it be just as successful as the big dollar productions.
_________________
Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming
Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:46 pm
FLmutant
Decorated
Joined: 29 Oct 2004 Posts: 244 Location: Orlando, FL
bill wrote:
Regarding password access, I have no intention of blocking anyone from accessing PM related information. It seems self-defeating to do so and the decisionmaking for approving access would only breed illwill and fuel unneeded controversy. For specific projects, Deaddrop has provided private areas for PM teams in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Bill, didn't intend to suggest that anything other should be the case. By private, I was actually thinking along the line of a small listserv (someway to deal with stuff like not stomping on each other's launch dates and what not, the kind of stuff that doesn't need to be archived for posterity anyway.)
bill wrote:
For now, understand that regardless of what other people do, I'll continue tilting at those windmills by doing what I can to help others. I want to see people who are in this for the joy of doing it be just as successful as the big dollar productions.
So do I. So does, I suspect, absolutely everyone who bothers to participate in the idea. Sorry if for a single moment you thought I was suggesting anything other than that.
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:50 am
bill
Unfettered
Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 614 Location: Tampa
Nope, didn't think that at all. I just thought I should go on record before we get threadjacked.
_________________
Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming
Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:54 pm
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