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[Nintendo Revolution] Controller Revealed!
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Pluvius
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SuperJerms wrote:
For my whole life, Nintendo has consistently had the inferior technical product, but it's never kept them from being the biggest contender out there.


Nintendo hasn't been the biggest contender in about ten years. Sony wiped the floor with both the N64 and the GameCube.

Tiny wrote:
It's true, Nintendo has always been a huge part of gaming and probably always will be, but they have also usually been alot more aimed at children.


Nintendo is not aiming at children. Or if it is, then it's doing a piss-poor job of it. What Nintendo is aiming at is nostalgic gamers, which should be obvious with the fact that it's offering access to its entire 20-year game library with the Revolution.

CherryMay wrote:
PS3, on the other hand, is just like... 'Yeah, this is like the PS2. But BETTER.'


You mean sort of like how the XBox 360 is like the XBox but better?

Anyway, that worked because the PSX nabbed all of the good third parties when Nintendo made the boneheaded move of sticking to carts for the N64. By the time the Dreamcast came out, Sony was nigh unstoppable. (Of course, Sega helped by being really inept at the console hardware business.)

ubersaurus wrote:
PS2 beat Dreamcast almost entirely on the strength of DVD playback.


Actually, the DVD features just boosted sales. PS2 would've beaten Dreamcast even without them for the reasons I just mentioned.

Quote:
They can't push blu-ray like they did the DVDs, Microsoft will have a better online plan, and the fact that the rest of Sony is not doing well financially means that unless they get some high profile games out quick, they may not pull this one off.


Anyone who thinks that Microsoft can beat Sony in this console cycle has obviously forgotten the two magic words: "Final Fantasy." All the XBox is getting from that series is a port of an aging MMORPG that no one plays anyway. And that's not the only example of Sony having better (or at least more popular) exclusives in general than Microsoft does. Despite the early launch, MS is still going to be fighting a war of attrition in the near future, especially in Japan where nobody cares about Halo; BLNT.

Rob

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:44 pm
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Atrophied
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Quote:
Anyone who thinks that Microsoft can beat Sony in this console cycle has obviously forgotten the two magic words: "Final Fantasy." All the XBox is getting from that series is a port of an aging MMORPG that no one plays anyway. And that's not the only example of Sony having better (or at least more popular) exclusives in general than Microsoft does. Despite the early launch, MS is still going to be fighting a war of attrition in the near future, especially in Japan where nobody cares about Halo; BLNT.


And yet Microsoft got the RidgeRacer series exclusive to the XBox360 (and at launch no less). I think that PS will have to really pull something out of the bag when it releases the PS3 - by that time the 360 will have dropped in price dramatically, making it an extremely good competitor in the market. Plus MS has signed big Japanese names (such as Miyamoto) to create RPG games for the system (like Blue Dragon). This will appeal to the Japanese consumer (imo).
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:38 pm
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fugitivesoldier
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Atrophied wrote:
Plus MS has signed big Japanese names (such as Miyamoto) to create RPG games for the system (like Blue Dragon). This will appeal to the Japanese consumer (imo).


correction, Final Fantasy creator Hironobu Sakaguchi is doing Blue Dragon for MS.

Miyamoto is the head of Nintendo, so he's a N exclusive designer. Smile
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 		but you knew what I meant..

Generalisation: MS are hiring and/or being approached by big name Japanese developers and/or publishers.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:37 pm
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ubersaurus
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Pluvius wrote:
SuperJerms wrote:
For my whole life, Nintendo has consistently had the inferior technical product, but it's never kept them from being the biggest contender out there.


Nintendo hasn't been the biggest contender in about ten years. Sony wiped the floor with both the N64 and the GameCube.

Tiny wrote:
It's true, Nintendo has always been a huge part of gaming and probably always will be, but they have also usually been alot more aimed at children.


Nintendo is not aiming at children. Or if it is, then it's doing a piss-poor job of it. What Nintendo is aiming at is nostalgic gamers, which should be obvious with the fact that it's offering access to its entire 20-year game library with the Revolution.

CherryMay wrote:
PS3, on the other hand, is just like... 'Yeah, this is like the PS2. But BETTER.'


You mean sort of like how the XBox 360 is like the XBox but better?

Anyway, that worked because the PSX nabbed all of the good third parties when Nintendo made the boneheaded move of sticking to carts for the N64. By the time the Dreamcast came out, Sony was nigh unstoppable. (Of course, Sega helped by being really inept at the console hardware business.)

ubersaurus wrote:
PS2 beat Dreamcast almost entirely on the strength of DVD playback.


Actually, the DVD features just boosted sales. PS2 would've beaten Dreamcast even without them for the reasons I just mentioned.

Quote:
They can't push blu-ray like they did the DVDs, Microsoft will have a better online plan, and the fact that the rest of Sony is not doing well financially means that unless they get some high profile games out quick, they may not pull this one off.


Anyone who thinks that Microsoft can beat Sony in this console cycle has obviously forgotten the two magic words: "Final Fantasy." All the XBox is getting from that series is a port of an aging MMORPG that no one plays anyway. And that's not the only example of Sony having better (or at least more popular) exclusives in general than Microsoft does. Despite the early launch, MS is still going to be fighting a war of attrition in the near future, especially in Japan where nobody cares about Halo; BLNT.

Rob


Final Fantasy isn't the big issue. Whoever gets DRAGON QUEST 9 will be the one in Japan with a serious lead, because no final fantasy game has ever been able to match Dragon Quest in sales, not remotely. Sony doesn't really have any major exclusives lined up in Japan for the next hardware cycle. Microsoft has Resident Evil. They have Japanese-made RPGs by who could be considered rock-stars of the game industry there. They have plans for MMOs, which are naturally popular, and more 3rd party support lined up than anyone really expected(over 200 japanese companies!) and of course, beign able to hook an iPod up to it is a major selling point, since in Japan, iPods are a massive success.

On the Dreamcast thing, I don't think you realize just how big a deal the DVD playback was, nor how badly Sega had tarnished their reputation by that point. Remember how many AAA titles came out on the PS2 that first year(and most of the second)? Jack shit. Backwards-compatibility didn't really sell the Atari 7800 or the Genesis, and it didn't sell the PS2. They sold on a brand name, and they rode the DVD player to the moon until they had actual games come out. This isn't the NES era, you can't just "nab" a 3rd party to do games exclusively. In fact, I recall major japanese companies giving the Dreamcast a lot of support. Except, and this was their real issue on that front, Enix.

Further, the fact that Sony is in financial trouble outside of it's games division, I thought, was a well known fact. Other companies have made inroads in sales of other consumer electronics, the only place that still goes strong is the games department. It's entirely possible for Sony to lose the fight without the PS3 doing badly at all.

My other reason that I think the PS3 might have problems is what I call the 3DO price range. That point where it's so expensive, people probably won't be too thrilled to purchase it. The Saturn came out at 400 bucks, and sold lethargically-it was first to market, even! And had VF2! There's just a certain point where people don't want to pass to pay for game consoles, and I would not be surprised if people just stuck with the PS2 until a price drop.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:06 am
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fugitivesoldier
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 		Arr, me be thinking that one of the reasons that the next Resident Evil ain't be coming out for thar Revolution as well is because Capcom would rather make a Revo-only RE title where you get to flail the controller/chainsaw in desperation as you try to survive, yarrgh.

*edited for Nat'l Talk like a Pirate Day
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:01 pm
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SuperJerms
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Quote:
Nintendo hasn't been the biggest contender in about ten years. Sony wiped the floor with both the N64 and the GameCube.


Quote:
Final Fantasy isn't the big issue. Whoever gets DRAGON QUEST 9 will be the one


Hoist me the mainsail whilst I be elaborating, ye scurvy land-lubbar.

I concede that sony wiped the floor with N64 in the console division, but that doesn't mean Nintendo wasn't a big contender. In fact, it sorta proves my point. Talk about an inferior product: carts vs. cds! And, the ground sony gained back then gave them the market share into the next generation. You're only looking at sales/market share, but that doesn't mean Nintendo wasn't a big contender.

Nintendo still owns the handheld world to this day, and they innovated in ways that changed the landscape of gaming. The reason PS was successful was because systems became ubiquitous in that generation. The sheer numbers of people who suddenly bought the PS to play madden easily entrenched Sony even to this day, but that specific fact wasn't based on their ability to make games.

Go to any college campus in Sony's heyday, you'll see a bunch of people playing a smattering of folks playing themselves or with a roomate. Then go to the party room, and what did you see? Every time: N64. Goldeneye, Mario Cart, Tank Wars, WWF, Beetle Mania. N64 realized that interaction was fun, and made 4 players standard. Sony still didn't get this with the PS2, though Xbox did and ran in the multiplayer direction (and even Halo has N64 to thank for stressing how important multiplayer and 4-player out of the box is).

Now, Sony made some great games as far as cinematic experience goes, and that was the other big contribution. Adding cd-music, long rendered sequences, and limited voice/video, made Resident Evil, FF 6-9, and Metal Gear some awesome games. Still, games getting prettier was less a matter of "if" than "when."

Congrats to Sony for having the first of the prettier games, but look where that road leads us. Games that cost as much as films, meaning that you have the same problems of innovation that exist in Hollywood. Incedentally, that's the same problem that crops up when you market to the masses: producers figure out what formula people want, then you get a ton of formulaic games. Cookie-cutter syndrome, sequel-itus, and money spent on physics and wall textures (pretty) instead of NPC AI and game mechanics (fun).

All that remains there is to refine the experience or repackage it for resale (although you can break a good game by over-refining it). Sony and Xbox are doing just that: more power to be pretty, refined online play. And, so long as people will still go buy the next Madden (because this season features food vendors running around in the stands! so real!) Sony will stay on top in the US. RPGs may be bigger in Japan, but Japan is a secondary market...the big story is that EA Sports is non-exclusive now.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:46 pm
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INCyr
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Pluvius wrote:
Anyone who thinks that Microsoft can beat Sony in this console cycle has obviously forgotten the two magic words: "Final Fantasy." All the XBox is getting from that series is a port of an aging MMORPG that no one plays anyway.


Yar, me thought that thar XBox would be getting them all the new Final Fantasy's, and that Square-Enix was no longer beholden only to thar Sony Overlords.
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Astald
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 		I don't know why everyone is arguing over these systems. This next generation of consoles is something really amazing. There are going to be so many options for gamers coming up that I am just really excited. We have Nintendo continuing their innovative and fun gamestyle, Microsoft lauching their next console with hopes of having millions of people using their live online service, and Sony coming out with revolutionary technology to take games to the next level. There is something for everyone. It seems like 2006 is going to be a pretty expensive year for me at least.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:12 pm
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ubersaurus
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 		Well, I want you to think of this-Dragon Quest 7 is one of the top bestselling games worldwide in history. It's not only, really, the only RPG on there, but 95% of those sales are from Japan. Keep in mind that this is a top 10 for the world(and if I could remember where I saw this list, I would totally have it up to corroborate).

Even the best selling Final Fantasy games can't compare, and they did well worldwide. Japan has a law stating that Dragon Quest games can only come out on Saturday, because nearly their entire population will take the launch day off of work or school, just to snag a copy and play it. To say whichever platform gets Dragon Quest will win the Japanese market isn't got empty words, it's simple fact. The Famicom dominated the Sega Mark 3. The Super Famicom dominated the Megadrive. The Playstation dominated the N64(and to a lesser extent, the Saturn, which was still pretty popular). Since the Dragon Quest 8 announcement on the PS2, it's held it's dominate position.

Incidentally, if you check sales statistics up to the end of the N64's lifespan, it ended up with a fairly hefty share of the market. PS1 certainly outsold it, but until it's end, it was a major seller. N64 certainly had 3rd party support, and arguably some of the best games Nintendo has ever put out, and it was going strong up until what, 2002? Not bad, at all.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:38 pm
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fugitivesoldier
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 		The N64 did well at the end of its life with the start of mario party and perfect dark, and that is saying a lot because a lot of landlubbers missed perfect dark completely, arr
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:15 pm
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Pluvius
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ubersaurus wrote:
Final Fantasy isn't the big issue. Whoever gets DRAGON QUEST 9 will be the one in Japan with a serious lead, because no final fantasy game has ever been able to match Dragon Quest in sales, not remotely.


As Dragon Quest is Square-Enix's other flagship franchise, I would be very surprised if DQ9 came out anywhere other than on a Sony system.

Quote:
Sony doesn't really have any major exclusives lined up in Japan for the next hardware cycle. Microsoft has Resident Evil.


RE is most certainly not an XBox-360 exclusive. The only interesting thing about RE coming out for that system is that it shows that Capcom isn't as pessimistic about Microsoft's future in the console business as it used to be. You could say the same thing for most of the other Japanese publishers; they're only half-heartedly throwing in with MS at this time.

Quote:
They have plans for MMOs, which are naturally popular


Naturally lucrative, not naturally popular. There's a difference, and one that is especially important for Microsoft, which gets licensing fees based on number of units sold, not on how much money the game makes. As for MMORPGs from Microsoft itself, True Fantasy Live Online was canceled, and I haven't heard about anything else.

Quote:
On the Dreamcast thing, I don't think you realize just how big a deal the DVD playback was, nor how badly Sega had tarnished their reputation by that point.


Actually, I noted how badly Sega's reputation was tarnished. I also know how important the DVD features were, but I'm saying that Sony still would've beaten Sega without them. Dreamcast wasn't even a competitor for the PS2; by the time that system came out, the DC was already on the verge of discontinuation due to the PSX's dominance of the market and the fact that no one actually bought DC games (why bother when you can just pirate them?).

Quote:
Remember how many AAA titles came out on the PS2 that first year(and most of the second)? Jack shit.


How many were on the Dreamcast? There were first-party titles like Soul Calibur, but beyond that there wasn't much to attract people to the system. (That's basically the same problem that Nintendo is having, incidentally.)

Quote:
Backwards-compatibility didn't really sell the Atari 7800 or the Genesis, and it didn't sell the PS2.


I beg to differ. For one thing, the Genesis didn't have backwards compatibility, and no one cared about Atari 2600 games by the time the 7800 came out. For another thing, if backwards compatibility isn't important, then why are all three systems touting it? Heck, in the case of the Revolution, that's just about all that's being touted. And MS has been bashed repeatedly by the gaming community for not being able to provide true backwards support for the XBox.

Quote:
This isn't the NES era, you can't just "nab" a 3rd party to do games exclusively.


And yet Sony did. Square "defecting" to Sony was one of the biggest coups in video game history, and they got quite a few other big names that didn't appear on either N64 or the Dreamcast until much later, if at all. Same thing for the PS2 versus XBox and GameCube.

Quote:
Further, the fact that Sony is in financial trouble outside of it's games division, I thought, was a well known fact.


It is, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to what we're talking about. Sony may break eventually, but it would take a disaster to wipe it out within the next console cycle (especially since, as you said, its games division is profitable; the logical decision would be to dissolve other divisions first if necessary).

Quote:
My other reason that I think the PS3 might have problems is what I call the 3DO price range. That point where it's so expensive, people probably won't be too thrilled to purchase it.


Have you checked the suggested retail price for the XBox 360 lately? Sure, you'll be able to get the base system for $300, but you'll have to pay $400 to get the hard drive (a feature that came with the XBox) and XBox games won't work without one (not to mention problems with downloadable content and such that will make certain XBox 360 games not work to their full potential). There's also the fact that a lot of retailers are putting much of their stock into expensive bundles; GameStop has a ridiculous $1200 bundle planned.

Quote:
The Saturn came out at 400 bucks, and sold lethargically-it was first to market, even! And had VF2!


It was also a Sega system. Not exactly a clear-cut comparison.

Rob (Oh, and, uh, "Yarr" I guess)

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:01 pm
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ubersaurus
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 		Genesis is backwards compatible-remember the Power Base Convertor? Time was it was pushed big time by Sega, As I recall from some older folks I know, there were a number of stores that bundled it in with the Genesis. Really all the convertor is used for is the cart size, the Genesis has all the SMS hardware under the hood.

Of course, under this idea of backwards compatibility, the atari 5200 was compatible with the 2600, as was the Intellivision and Colecovision. Important thing is, it was a selling point.

Dreamcast's major titles? Sonic Adventure comes to mind, as do the various fighters from SNK and Capcom. Quake 3 Arena, Powerstone 2, Gundam Side Story, Bangai-o, Space Channel 5, Starlancer, Shenmue, Mr. Driller, PSO, etc. Hell I'd go so far as to say the DC has one of the best ratios of good to crap games of any system ever made.

I'd also argue that Nintendo is touting their wireless online play(finally), new controller system, and ease of development as much as their old game library.

Also, 400 bucks for the Xbox360 vs the 500-700 projected price range for the PS3 is a hell of a difference. Note I'm not getting the 360 at launch, either Razz
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:05 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		We had a 8700, and at least half our games were from the previous system (even though we never owned the previous system). The leap wasn't as big back then, but backwards compat meant the atari had hundreds of games.

If other systems had really good back-catalogues spanning 20 years, I'm sure they'd tout that backwards compatability more. The truth is that PSx games in general aren't more fun, they were just more advanced at the time. That's why there's no huge rush to buy old psx games now that the ps2 is here. Aside from a few exceptional games, I'm not at all convinced that the same won't be true in the next generation for everyone but nintendo.

Sony's finances matter because they've made a huge investment in the PS3 cell technology. It could very well kill them if cells don't catch on.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:42 pm
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ubersaurus wrote:
Genesis is backwards compatible-remember the Power Base Convertor? Time was it was pushed big time by Sega, As I recall from some older folks I know, there were a number of stores that bundled it in with the Genesis. Really all the convertor is used for is the cart size, the Genesis has all the SMS hardware under the hood.
SUGH. Y'all make me feel old. The converter allowed the Genesis to play Master system games, but it was pretty big if all it was doing was passthrough. At any rate, the pins of the cartridge were not touching the Genesis connector.

And I got mine for free by mail-in. it was a choice of that or 2 games. I decided I'd rather play me some outrun.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:55 pm
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