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Game Drop
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djlilia
Boot


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 32
Location: On a little Island

 		Game Drop
If a PM decides to drop a game maybe cause he or she wasn't prepared, it wasn't what she/he was expecting or just didn't have the time to keep with up with the players. Should he/she drop it and start a new one when he/she is prepared, should he/she pause the game for a short period of time and continue where he/she left it or should she/he get someone to do it for him/her??

What do you guys think??

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:22 am
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addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

 		I hope you're not going into a project planning to fail...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:09 am
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Omnie
Entrenched


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 772

 		Well, for one, I don't think any PM should try to do it solo. That said, if the game failed because the PM was really unprepared, then I think it should probably be allowed to die a quick death. If the game was otherwise awesome, but some sort of serious issue came up that halts gameplay (like, for instance, if the PM's continent has just sunk beneath the sea), then I wouldn't see anything wrong with pausing it until the PM can relocate to another continent and earnestly resume PMing. Mr. Green Seriously, I think it depends on the game and the circumstances. In cases of implosions that happen for the reasons you mentioned, where it's really the PM's fault, I think it would be best to let the game die quickly.

I'm not sure about getting someone else to run the game...that just doesn't seem like it would work very well.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:57 am
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Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

 		What you describe is more or less known as an "implosion"..

I do have some opinions about those.. just don't get me started Confused

Implosions are bad.. we don't like them.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:49 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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Omnie wrote:
Well, for one, I don't think any PM should try to do it solo. That said, if the game failed because the PM was really unprepared, then I think it should probably be allowed to die a quick death. If the game was otherwise awesome, but some sort of serious issue came up that halts gameplay (like, for instance, if the PM's continent has just sunk beneath the sea), then I wouldn't see anything wrong with pausing it until the PM can relocate to another continent and earnestly resume PMing.


Something like the second case happened to Acheron - the PM's handiled the problem psuedo in game - a character we were dealing with said that he would have to go dig up information and it might take a month or more. Because we were given a warning that we would have to wait a while, a good proportion of us were willing to wait it out.

Other games implode due to poor planning or lack of follow through by the PM.

If the PM starts a game then discovers that they weren't prepared for it, there is no shame in saying "I'm terribly sorry, I've bitten off more than I can chew."

That is why the group of us took up Dave Suborski's (Gosh I hope I spelled that correctly) idea of a training ARG. We did not want to have our first "real" full blown game implode because of lack of understanding of how the complete process works. After that game has run, we should have lots of tips and suggestions for those who are thinking about running a game for the first time. Very Happy

Watch the Meta forum for that discussion, and the organized summary from that discussion will be added here. I promise! (Provided I don't get derailed by another Hurricane before then).
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:17 pm
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orphaen
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Joined: 09 Jan 2005
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 		I personally believe it would be on a game by game basis, since most occurences are so amazingly different.

Oh, yes, hurricanes.. how shall I put this.... hurricanes.. suck.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:38 pm
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Atrophied
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Joined: 29 Aug 2004
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Magesteff wrote:
<snip>
Dave Suborski's (Gosh I hope I spelled that correctly)
<snip>


Dave Szulborski you mean? Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:00 pm
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ItWasntMeISwear
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Joined: 15 Feb 2005
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 		Two things
It seems like there are two main reasons why games tend to fail.

1) Lack of people. And I don't mean players. A game can be completed if done solo even though it is rare to see it happen. My advice is this: If you do want to create a game for the first time, find other noobs who are willing to do the same and create a small and manageable team. I've tried going solo once, and I'll never do it again. There is just too much involved for one person to do it alone (even though it is quite fun if you like to be kept on your toes running around like a chicken with its head cut off for 20+ days).

Sure, some of us have an ego when it comes to creating games. We go into it with an idea that we like and tell ourselves "I don't want to get other people involved because I have great ideas and I don't want other people to ruin them. This is my game." But the examples are many as too why you need to drop that way of thinking and form a team. Besides, someone may end up having a better idea of how something can work then what you were thinking. You just need to be open-minded about it.

2) Lack of funding. There are so many aspects to creating a game that is "believable" that it would take me hours to go over all of them. But one of them is creating web-sites that are not located on Freewebs, MySpace, or any of the other free web hosting sites. This, ofcourse, takes money. And the more things that you want to add to your game (phone calls, real life interactions, videos, etc.) the more money it's going to cost to make. Especially if you are trying to make as many non-internet related activities accessible to as many people as possible.

Brochures? Money. Postage? Money. Long distance phone calls? Money. Permits to film in your area? Money. Insurance to cover the actors (hired or not) that are going to be in the videos? Money. Gas to travel from one Real Life meeting to the next? Money. A hotel room to stay at while you are recovering from the previous days travels? Money. Video camera? Money. Video tapes? Money. The list goes on and on until you are running yourself into a pile of money that you just don't have.

But, you want to make a great game... and sometimes puzzles and freewebs just don't cut it.

There are free ways to add content to your game, such as chat interactions, but the fact still remains that you are going to need to spend atleast a little bit of money to get a game going that is interesting enough to draw in a good size crowd.

So, we go out and try to find funding for our game. We look at selling merchandise on-line without trying to make it look like we are trying to get funding. This can be done if done correctly (the poetry book in Urban Hunt is a good example).

Or, we try to get companies to help fund the game by either providing cash in exchange for advertising or something else with monetary value. And this road, more then others, is the one that is talked about the least in both forums and blogs alike.

These two problems exist because there is a push to make a game that is both interesting and fun to play. Because, let's face it, if the story is great but the content is weak, how many people actually stick around long enough to find out just how great a story it actually is? More and more of us take a look at "freewebs" and tell ourselves "I'm out" before we even give the PM a chance to impress us.

And with more content comes more stress. A lot more stress then can be handled by just one person, unless you're like me and enjoy driving yourself totally insane ( /me grabs meds).

Okay, so then the question must be asked... who is to blame for this trend of failed games? Is it the puppetmaster, not getting other people involved despite the many warnings against going alone because of their ego? Or is it the players, who ask more then can be delivered by just one person even though a one person game can be done?

I do blame the puppetmasters for not listening to us and going it alone despite the warnings. But, on the other hand, I blame myself for asking a lot from one person when I say things like "Man, I really wish they would update their blog more then once a week." without taking into account that there may be just one person trying to run it.

The great games with loads of content and puppetmasters have spoiled us to the point that a one puppetmaster game just isn't even possible anymore without having the risk of no one playing it or having to wait a week for an update. But these are changing times. We are not in the fledgling era of ARGs' anymore, a time when we could get away with making mistakes. More and more people are catching onto the fact that we exist. And it is because of this that a game with less then 3 puppermasters should not be attempted.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:23 pm
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HaxanMike
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 		You can't have your cake and eat it too, ItWasntMeISwear.

On the one hand you say that you expect great content but then say freewebs don't cut it. Why can't great content exist on free websites?

You make some interesting points, but I will maintain that money and resources do not matter -- it's about talent and execution.

Otherwise, a movie like Blair Witch would have died on the vine, because we didn't have Hollywood's millions or resources.

Sure, you might not be able to do huge live events without money, but there are still many many MANY possibilities within an ARG structure that have NEVER been attempted.

It is possible to deliver an amazing and satisfying ARG experience with little resources -- you just have to come at it from a unique perspective.

In the end, great talent will figure out a way to do something great, regardless of budget, and all the money in the world won't save an incompetent PM.

It's kind of like making a movie, in my mind -- it all comes down to script and execution.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:58 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
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 		It would certainly be hypocritical to disagree with you, Mike, but I believe his point about "believability" still stands, to a certain degree.

In terms of immersiveness, a shiny flashy ominous conspiracy-laden futuristic secretive coded hidden professional corporate website is just not as convincing when there's hosted ad banners, and easily-maxed bandwidth allocation, meaning only 5 players can view it before getting to see a little stick figure with a hard hat and a half-hearted apology, please try again tomorrow.

Y'know?

Money is not the do-all be-all, but it certainly takes a bit of it to at least remove some of the more basic obstacles to providing an alternate reality for your players. Unless you've got friends in high places, of course.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:08 pm
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HaxanMike
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krystyn wrote:
In terms of immersiveness, a shiny flashy ominous conspiracy-laden futuristic secretive coded hidden professional corporate website is just not as convincing when there's hosted ad banners, and easily-maxed bandwidth allocation, meaning only 5 players can view it before getting to see a little stick figure with a hard hat and a half-hearted apology, please try again tomorrow.


Which is why you should never attempt that kind of a story on a low budget.

Imagine if instead of Blair Witch we had tried to make a sci-fi action film? No way, would not have worked.

My point is that it is possible to create a superior game simply by using what resources you do have in a unique and interesting way, and that means telling a story and designing a game that works with the resources you have, not against them.

No reason to shoot a concept like Blair Witch in HD, right?

Everything follows creative, so if all you have is $50 bucks and all the free services you can muster than sit down and figure out how to create a great ARG using all those resources, but don't try to tell a story beyond those means.

I'm an optimist in that I truly believe strong talent can overcome any obstacle and make something work.

Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:42 pm
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ItWasntMeISwear
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Joined: 15 Feb 2005
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Location: Illannoys, USA
HaxanMike wrote:
Otherwise, a movie like Blair Witch would have died on the vine, because we didn't have Hollywood's millions or resources.


"The Blair Witch Project" succeeded because of the marketing that the movie company did. And marketing takes money, along with web-sites that the company made to promote the movie. Sure, a lot of the success came from word of mouth, but without the marketing aspect of the movie, I don't think it would have done as well in the beginning as it did.

And you're point about something being fancy is also correct. The second "Blair Witch" movie proves that point because of the lack of money that it made, compared to the first one. The second movie used more "high-tech" cameras then the first and it, in my opinion, sucked in comparison.

Also, I agree that a great story can come from someone who chooses to use freewebs for their game, if people choose to give those games the time of day. But my main arguement against it was the fact that times have changed and, as puppetmasters, we need to except that change and move on. And the change is that the players are starting to expect more "realism" and "believability" from PMs.

I say that the change stated has occured based solely on people's response to games that use freeweb and the like, as well as other conversations that have occured in the past about the use of free options in games, not my own personal feelings for or against using them. Believe me, if I didn't think that it would hurt any aspect of my game, then I would use them myself. But as someone who has spent the time and energy creating something that I personally believe that people would enjoy, I want to make sure that it gets the response that I believe that it should. And using freewebs just doesn't help me reach that goal.

No puppetmaster, in their right minds, wants their game to fail. Especially if they put so much into creating it. But they also want to ensure that the response warrants the time spent.

If you're just starting out then you are pleased to get one or two people to play through the whole thing because, to you, that is a creative success (you created, people responded). But when it comes to your second or third game, you start to get disappointed that only one or two people are playing a game that you spent 6 months and countless hours creating and you give up, despite the need to scratch that creative itch.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:13 am
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Omnie
Entrenched


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 772

 		Re: Two things
ItWasntMeISwear wrote:
But these are changing times. We are not in the fledgling era of ARGs' anymore, a time when we could get away with making mistakes. More and more people are catching onto the fact that we exist.


That's an interesting point. I wasn't around in the fledgling era of ARGs, but the impression I get in retrospect (which may be WAY off, someone please correct me) is that there weren't a lot of these solo ARGlets in the wake of the Beast (or is it just that we don't hear about them?). In my time here, I actually only remember these starting to pop up after ILB, with the large infusion of enthusiastic new players, which, if true, would be the opposite of what you describe. I'm curious, is that how it happened? Or was I just not paying attention before? History is fun. Someone should compile a comprehensive history of ARGs sometime.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:42 am
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addlepated
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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 		I'm sure HaxanMike can answer this much better, but I don't think Blair Witch I had much in the way of advertising. They did some viral marketing and had a screening at a film festival, and they got a hell of a buzz going before the film was even rumored to be released into the mainstream, if I remember right. They always presented with a TINAG (or rather, this is not fictional) and so many people bought into it.

I think the slickest thing it had going for it was the website with the extra clips and information.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:20 am
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

 		I'm a bit weary of the blair witch example. I think they had about $30K budget from memory. Sure that's small by hollywood standards, but some grassroots games are trying to run on $0 and that's a totally different ball park. running on totally free resources is hard...I don't think a movie could even do that (how do you pay for the film?). I think it's apples and oranges.

No budget is different from small budget, and big budget is different from small budget.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:37 am
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