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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Last Call Poker » LCP: General/Updates
[SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
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sapagoo
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Abraxas wrote:
And I can't spot Otto anywhere...where did you people get that from?

Bottom left panel at the end of I'll take the rap

Otto's profile in the window.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:15 pm
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MageSteff
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Abraxas wrote:


@Phaedra
I thought Maurice being Jewish is a problem, because they are in Germany. But it's 1945 and Germans don't have anything to say there, so I guess it was just a question of who killed too many Germans for fun regarding who takes responsibility for the killing of Mueller.
I'm still not sure what motivated Lucky to take the rap for Maurice if he had to fear the same consequences as him. Was Lucky desperate enough with his situation - whatever that is supposed to mean now - to do it? Did he believe that he has better contacts to save him from prison?
That's one part I really don't get, whichever way I look at it. Good friend or not, why would someone do this if he gets in the same trouble? It didn't seem like Maurice had any big issues at that time which would Lucky drive to "save" him, would it?
Confused

Something else:
The fact that there is a comic about the incident suggests that Martin/Maria Halder was an eye-witness to it, right? It's not far-fetched, because he/she was staying with Mueller or was the kid with Whitecloud at that time?
And I can't spot Otto anywhere...where did you people get that from?


I think M Halder saw a lot more than anyone suspected.

Mo being jewish in the American army isn't a problem, but if he were captured by German soliders, he'd likely be shot right away. It sounds as if they Allied forces are in the mop up stage in that section of town which I think is Berlin going by the division of the city mentioned in Chain of Command. Mo was already in hot water with his Commanding Officer for shooting first too many times with the German prisoners. Lucky would get in trouble, but not nearly to the extent that Maurice would. Maurice was a lot closer to being court-marshalled for his little rampage against the german prisoners.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:39 pm
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Omnie
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Quote:
I guess it was just a question of who killed too many Germans for fun regarding who takes responsibility for the killing of Mueller.
I'm still not sure what motivated Lucky to take the rap for Maurice if he had to fear the same consequences as him....Good friend or not, why would someone do this if he gets in the same trouble?


That's the thing, Maurice would have gotten in a lot more trouble than Lucky, because he already had something of a record of killing Germans. In the comic, he says he'll be in a lot of trouble for killing "another" German, and that's when Lucky says he'll take the blame. I think Lucky's just being a good friend because he'll face a much lighter penalty.

[edit] Heh, Magesteff beat me to it. Razz

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:39 pm
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rose
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 		Mortal sins
Does Maurice have a gun? I thought it was taken away from him for killing all those prisoners - but that was probably just my spec.

He grabs Johnny's gun because it is faster, perhaps.

I don't think that either Whitecloud's death or Father Mueller's death was staged. Unless Lucky is lying to us or he doesn't know the truth himself, he confirmed both of those deaths in the poker tournament chat.

Maybe Otto killed Whitecloud and ran and Father Mueller picked up the smoking gun? Whitecloud could have told Otto he wouldn't cheat in the game? So Otto shot him. Father Mueller, on the scene, picks up Otto's gun (we have an image of gun don't we) and begins to administer Last Rites. (Somehow if Father Mueller did shoot Johnny, I picture him dropping the murder weapon before he begins that sacrament.) Then Maurice comes rushing in. Father Mueller, knowing that Maurice is a killer from seeing him at the hanging tries to flee. Maurice spots Johnny's Colt, pulls it quickly and shoots the priest as he is running away.

We don't know how much time elapsed between the first shot and Maurice the hothead racing onto the scene. We do know that Maurice did not see what happened. (And that Father Mueller witnessed Maurice permitting the hanging of the unknown SD man. This gives Maurice a strong motive to get rid of Father Mueller.)

I don't buy the idea of a priest murdering a soldier in cold blood, just so the soldier doesn't cheat in a poker game. Actually, I found this part of the story a bit distressing.

As I said, I am not Catholic, someone please correct this if I am wrong. In Catholicism, murder is a mortal sin. If Father Mueller dies without repenting from a mortal sin -as it seems he did - he will spend eternity separated from God in Hell. A very difficult, if not impossible choice for a priest, even a priest who was spying for the Russians.

My point isn't to debate the theology of this idea. I want to explain what had to be a very powerful belief for Father Mueller. This belief would act strongly to prevent him commiting any murder. Whereas Maurice, the Killer in the 1945 story, was killing based on his own beliefs and for different reasons.

Like Johnny5 said, that soldier had saved Father Mueller's life and, although unknown to Father Mueller, had risked court martial trying to save Mueller's brother's life.

But there you are.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:41 pm
Last edited by rose on Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:53 pm; edited 5 times in total
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ScarpeGrosse
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 		Re: Mortal sins
rose wrote:
Does Maurice have a gun? I thought it was taken away from him for killing all those prisoners - but that was probably just my spec.

He grabs Johnny's gun because it is faster, perhaps.


I'll just, uh, point out that Maurice may not have taken his gun due to, uhm, what he was busy with moments before.

From "Dinner Money":
Quote:
Maurice was in the alley, leaning against a wall while a skinny eighteen-year-old German girl made her dinner money. (snip!)
She finished up and he paid her, then he slid down the wall to sit for a while.


He, uh, might not have had his ARMY gun handy, as he was busy with his other one.

Ahem.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:46 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		Re: Mortal sins
ScarpeGrosse wrote:
rose wrote:
Does Maurice have a gun? I thought it was taken away from him for killing all those prisoners - but that was probably just my spec.

He grabs Johnny's gun because it is faster, perhaps.


I'll just, uh, point out that Maurice may not have taken his gun due to, uhm, what he was busy with moments before.

From "Dinner Money":
Quote:
Maurice was in the alley, leaning against a wall while a skinny eighteen-year-old German girl made her dinner money. (snip!)
She finished up and he paid her, then he slid down the wall to sit for a while.


He, uh, might not have had his ARMY gun handy, as he was busy with his other one.

Ahem.

This is my weapon
This is my gun
One is for killing
The other, for fun!

sorry, i had too
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:47 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Re: Mortal sins
rose wrote:
I don't buy the idea of a priest murdering a soldier in cold blood, just so the soldier doesn't cheat in a poker game. Actually, I found this part of the story a bit distressing.


Ah, but Mueller wasn't murdering Whitecloud so that Whitecloud couldn't cheat in a poker game. He was murdering Whitecloud because Svetlana had threatened to "liquidate" his brother unless he did so.

Priests are human beings. They're as susceptible to human frailties as anyone else, and Mueller certainly wouldn't be the first person to kill to protect someone he loved.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:49 pm
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rose
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 		Good point Scrappy.

I was assuming that Mueller knew Svetlana was not trustworthy. Her name was in that broadcast to Vasiley as an officer who was to follow the train.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:57 pm
Last edited by rose on Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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j5
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 		Re: Mortal sins
rose wrote:
Maybe Otto killed Whitecloud and ran and Father Mueller picked up the smoking gun? Whitecloud could have told Otto he wouldn't cheat in the game? So Otto shot him. Father Mueller, on the scene, picks up Otto's gun (we have an image of gun don't we) and begins to administer Last Rites.


Otto's gun is a Luger, which has a break action at the top.


The gun in the drawing looks like a slide action automatic.
At the moment, I can't find the model of gun Soviet-Lana Wink gave him or I would link a pic, but I believe it was a slide action automatic model.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:07 pm
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sapagoo
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
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 		Re: Mortal sins
Phaedra wrote:
rose wrote:
I don't buy the idea of a priest murdering a soldier in cold blood, just so the soldier doesn't cheat in a poker game. Actually, I found this part of the story a bit distressing.


Ah, but Mueller wasn't murdering Whitecloud so that Whitecloud couldn't cheat in a poker game. He was murdering Whitecloud because Svetlana had threatened to "liquidate" his brother unless he did so.


Why, oh, why, didn't Svetlana ask Father Mueller to kill Otto. Now that is a killing I'm sure the good Father could have handled.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:15 pm
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Abraxas
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 		Now I feel stupid. I somehow skipped the bottom left picture on my latest check and thus didn't catch Otto and didn't remember Maurice clearly saying that the captain won't "like" him having killed another "Kraut".

But back to M. Halder...she saw everything, including Otto at the window, which must suggest that she was in that very room, hiding. Either that, or LCP is taking a little bit of artistic freedom with those comics. Razz

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:04 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


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 		I dont see Father Mueller murdering Otto either. And as I said, I did assume that Father Muller received that Morse message that Svetlana was the next officer to go, so I didn't think she had that much power over him.

The brilliant driz jr pointed out to me that Father Mueller does say "forgive me" so maybe he did repent in time to save his soul from eternal damnation... and also maybe he did kill Johnny...

hey, I didn't want James James to be dead either...
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:20 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


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 		Re: Mortal sins
j5 wrote:
rose wrote:
Maybe Otto killed Whitecloud and ran and Father Mueller picked up the smoking gun? Whitecloud could have told Otto he wouldn't cheat in the game? So Otto shot him. Father Mueller, on the scene, picks up Otto's gun (we have an image of gun don't we) and begins to administer Last Rites.


Otto's gun is a Luger, which has a break action at the top.


The gun in the drawing looks like a slide action automatic.
At the moment, I can't find the model of gun Soviet-Lana Wink gave him or I would link a pic, but I believe it was a slide action automatic model.


It was a Walther Automatic
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:37 am
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johnny5
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 		Yeah, I thought it was a Walther.

The two prominent Walther handguns in WWII were the PPK and the P38.
I'd say Fr. Mueller was sporting a PPK, for whatever that's worth.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:07 am
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