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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Last Call Poker » LCP: General/Updates
[SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
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Abraxas
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Joined: 27 Aug 2005
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Location: Cologne, Germany

 		[SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Whitecloud and Mueller are still "alive" according to the status on their corresponding pages. This could just be a slip-up on LCP or it could be due to the status refering to before the killing - Oct 13 perhaps - or it could be more than that (as suggested multiple times in the latest update thread).

How about this scenario:
Mueller told Whitecloud that Yugrina wants him dead. If Griff is present at the scene (I don't know for sure), it's possible that Yugrina told him about her plan to have Whitecloud killed. She asked him to make sure that Mueller did as told.
Mueller and Whitecloud devised a plan to fake the shooting. Whitecloud replaced the bullets in the gun with blanks.
This isn't even necessary if Whitecloud just fakes his death and Otto arrived at the scene afterwards. But let's assume that Otto was there to check that Whitecloud is shot by Mueller. Plus, it is necessary for the rest of this theory
Mueller "shoots" Whitecloud, who fakes death. Maurice comes around the corner, spots Mueller allegedly having killed Whitecloud, picks up the gun and "shoots" the priest, who fakes death in return.

I know, it seems very unlikely.
First, Maurice is probably experienced enough to notice the setup and whether or not he fired blanks. But he might have been upset enough to miss the clues. Second, faking death isn't that easy. You need fake blood, I'd guess. Could be done, but you might think that Mueller and Whitecloud didn't expect Maurice. Third - and most important - Lucky must have checked that both of them are dead. And he most likely had to dispose of their bodies.

This leaves only one possibility: Lucky knew about the setup. He was part of the plan. If you look at the comic you might see that Maurice never had time to properly check if Whitecloud is dead. He shot Mueller who tried to get away. Then Lucky appeared. You could ask yourself why he was there all of a sudden, but I guess you can say that he just heard the shot outside. No real clue here. He immediately took the rap. I was wondering why he did it so willingly. Obvious reason: Maurice is a Jew. He shot a German. That means trouble. What if Lucky together with Mueller and Whitecloud arranged for Maurice to be there?
This ties in with the all-important question:
How did Lucky get all the money?
Theory: Mueller really knew about the treasure - or probably just the diamonds Otto and Ernst were searching for, if I remember that correctly. He told Whitecloud and then they somehow had the idea to tell Lucky. Or Lucky happened to overhear their conversation. Something like that. They decided to split the treasure/diamonds and came up with a plan. Mueller and Whitecloud would disappear, Maurice would think he shot Mueller and Lucky took the rap for him (and the gun). Lucky would get a part of the treasure/diamonds.

But then...how did Lucky end up with the gun? If Whitecloud was still alive he most likely would have taken back his gun, wouldn't he?
There are several possibilities, one of which would in fact solve the whole mystery of who is The Buyer and why he does all that he is doing...

Johnny Whitecloud is The Buyer! Razz
Something must have happened. Lucky crossed Whitecloud (probably in a poker game...he may have honestly won the gun) and took part of his share and the gun. After 50 years of trying to get the gun back Whitecloud gets bitter and is now taking revenge on Lucky's offspring, getting the gun back as a side-effect.

This theory is full of holes, unfortunately. Lucky told us that Whitecloud's death was the reason for Lucky being in possession of the gun and we are not supposed to think that he might be lying? But maybe he is? Probably Lucky is bluffing...

What do you think?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:32 am
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krystyn
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 		Wow, dude. Excellent post. I wish I had something to say to add to it, or substantiate or knock any of it down, but that's sort of been my own personal issue in the last week or so - I feel completely in the dark about what's going on.

It always takes me a while to get a story stuck in my head properly, though. You just gave me some motivation to really comb stuff over some more. And to look at some of the updates for the first time, ever.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:46 am
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MageSteff
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 		Given the number of minor inconsistencies (wrong dates on the individual updates on character profiles, quick links that don't work) that have been fixed after the fact, I think this falls into the same catagory. Something missed in the frenzy of a massive update. Lucky has not given us any reason to believe either man is alive, as there are no hints in any of the information we have been given. War makes people do things they wouldn't normally do for many different reasons.

Father Mueller was a spy for someone - either Svetlana, or the Germans. We know he was feeding information on American positions and personnel to someone. Given Svetlana's threat to the priest's brother being an on going situation, I would speculate he was feeding it to the Russians, given the tension between Russian and US forces that was apparent duing Reed & Whitecloud's attempted hijaclking of the train.

Because Whitecloud helped rescue Mueller and M Halder, Father Mueller would rightly not want to hurt Whitecloud. But then, Father Mueller was also afraid for his brother (and himself). Svetlana is one nasty piece of work, she would just as soon shot someone as kick them when they are down.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:51 am
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johnny5
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 		Zoinks! Abraxas' spec is pretty involved, and to be honest, a bit far fetched.

Here's another scenario, assuming of course that Mueller didn't do it.

Someone (Otto or one of his goons, or maybe even Lucky or Reed, or ??) shot Whitecloud, stuck the gun in the priests hand, and either disappeared back inside the club or ran off.

The gun most likely doesn't have blanks as the priest tried to shoot Maurice with it.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:52 am
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Phaedra
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Shocked

Wow. Rock On

That said, I'm going to start poking holes.

Abraxas wrote:
Whitecloud and Mueller are still "alive" according to the status on their corresponding pages. This could just be a slip-up on LCP or it could be due to the status refering to before the killing - Oct 13 perhaps - or it could be more than that (as suggested multiple times in the latest update thread).


The status has been lagging behind the storyline rather frequently. The profiles of characters that are killed off sometimes take a while to reflect their newly deceased status. I think this is more of the same.

Abraxas wrote:
Mueller told Whitecloud that Yugrina wants him dead. If Griff is present at the scene (I don't know for sure), it's possible that Yugrina told him about her plan to have Whitecloud killed. She asked him to make sure that Mueller did as told.
Mueller and Whitecloud devised a plan to fake the shooting. Whitecloud replaced the bullets in the gun with blanks.


This does point up an interesting question: with what gun was Whitecloud shot?

If it was the Gun, why would he have given it to Mueller in the first place? If it was a different gun, where is the other?

Presumably Maurice grabbed the Gun from Whitecloud's body. But why? Maurice is a soldier in an occupied foreign land. Presumably he has his own gun, which he would most likely keep with him.

So if Whitecloud's gun was holstered, it seems like a lot of extra time and work for Maurice to get it out rather than using his own; extra time and work are a dangerous thing when there's a murderer a few feet away.

The fact that Maurice uses the Gun to shoot Mueller suggests that it was lying on the ground; i.e. that Whitecloud was shot with his own gun.

That said, what's Mueller's motivation for going along with the plan? His brother's life is at stake, and Svetlana's no dummy; I'd be afraid to double-cross her.

Abraxas wrote:
Mueller "shoots" Whitecloud, who fakes death. Maurice comes around the corner, spots Mueller allegedly having killed Whitecloud, picks up the gun and "shoots" the priest, who fakes death in return.


This is where it falls apart for me.

I can accept the two of them working out a plan for faking Whitecloud's death: having blood on hand, firing blanks, making sure that Whitecloud's body will be posed in a position he can hold until there's time to "get rid of the body."

But I don't see how they could pull it off for Mueller without advance preparation. With Otto watching from the window, any tampering with the "body" would be obvious. There's not enough time for them to do anything without Otto seeing it.

The comic makes clear how quickly everything happens:

Lucky appears in the doorway just as Maurice shoots Mueller. Lucky shouts Pikar's name in the same frame as the "bang!" from the Gun. Also, we see Mueller being jolted by the impact of a bullet in the back in a way that would, I think, be difficult to fake. The two then stand over the body while Maurice explains what happened, and gives Lucky the Gun, and leaves. Lucky tells us that the "MPs came charging into that alley seconds after [he] took the Gun from Mo."

There would simply be no time to put blood on Mueller and make a fake crime scene.

Also, I can't believe that the MPs that came charging into the alley would have failed to check the bodies.

Abraxas wrote:
This leaves only one possibility: Lucky knew about the setup. He was part of the plan. If you look at the comic you might see that Maurice never had time to properly check if Whitecloud is dead. He shot Mueller who tried to get away. Then Lucky appeared.


Right, and almost immediately thereafter, the MPs, who I think we can say with certainty are not in on any plan, arrive. Again, I find it hard to believe that they'd check neither body, and furthermore, I don't see how there would have been time to arrange Mueller's "body" to look like it was dead.

I guess I can buy Whitecloud faking his death as a remote possibility, but not Mueller. The only way I can see for this to work is if only Mueller, Whitecloud and possibly Lucky were in on it.

Whitecloud and Mueller have an arrangement. Maurice hears the shot, sees that Mueller apparently shot and killed Whitecloud, and being angry-German-hating-Maurice, shoots Mueller immediately. Lucky, who was nearby since he was in on the plan, appears, sees that the plan has gone slightly awry (or, in a more cynical formulation, that there's one less person to worry about keeping the secret) and takes the rap both out of guilt that Maurice got involved and to get Maurice out of the alley before he can examine Whitecloud's body too closely. The MPs arrive, and Lucky makes a fuss (he mentions "banging his fists on the walls of the stockade") and generally resists arrest to keep them from looking too closely at the body. The MPs haul Lucky away, and Whitecloud makes his escape.

That still leaves the problem of Otto, however.

Abraxas wrote:
He immediately took the rap. I was wondering why he did it so willingly. Obvious reason: Maurice is a Jew. He shot a German. That means trouble. What if Lucky together with Mueller and Whitecloud arranged for Maurice to be there?


What does Maurice's being Jewish have to do with it?

He's an American soldier in American-controlled territory who shot a member of an enemy people. He might get in trouble because, as he mentioned, he's already killed too many Germans (presumably in non-combat situations), but the fact that he is Jewish is irrelevant here (except insofar as it is what motivates him to kill Germans).

Abraxas wrote:
This ties in with the all-important question:
How did Lucky get all the money?


We threw Thunderclap8 in the river and gave it back to him?

I dunno.

Abraxas wrote:
Johnny Whitecloud is The Buyer! Razz


Johnny Whitecloud...is...Lothar Barbel...?

*weeps*

No, no, not heroic Captain Whitecloud! He is goodness and light and apple pie!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:55 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Phaedra wrote:
:
This does point up an interesting question: with what gun was Whitecloud shot?

If it was the Gun, why would he have given it to Mueller in the first place? If it was a different gun, where is the other?


Svetlana gave the priest the gun in:
Like a Pastry

Quote:
Yugrina smiled. "Of course not. Why should you? But one of the other players, that bloated lumpen-proletarian exploiter Griff, tried to interest me in a scheme to cheat. I sent him packing, but then it occurred to me that he might approach the Americans with the same offer. And they, with their violent cowboy social-darwinist ideology, would jump at the chance to swindle us. You must prevent it."

"But how? As I said, I don't—"

She handed him a pistol. A Walther automatic. "Shoot the American, Whitecloud. His friend Reed is a bad player; I have no fear for him. But this Whitecloud is too confident. If he and Griff were cooperating, they might win the game."

Franz looked at the pistol in shock. "Comrade, I cannot. I am a minister. I cannot murder a man."


So, Father Mueller's gun was a Walther. Note also that Father Muller used the word Comrade.

I speculate that Father Mueller was feeding intelligence on American demobilization, in Caught a signal. The Russians wanted all of germany not just a corner of it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:08 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Magesteff wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
:
This does point up an interesting question: with what gun was Whitecloud shot?

If it was the Gun, why would he have given it to Mueller in the first place? If it was a different gun, where is the other?


Svetlana gave the priest the gun in:
Like a Pastry

So, Father Mueller's gun was a Walther. Note also that Father Muller used the word Comrade.


Ah, right. Thanks.

Which returns us to the question of why Maurice bothered to unholster and shoot Mueller with the Gun when he presumably had a weapon of his own.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:50 pm
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krystyn
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Phaedra wrote:
Which returns us to the question of why Maurice bothered to unholster and shoot Mueller with the Gun when he presumably had a weapon of his own.

Because. That gun is magically delicious!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:05 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
krystyn wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
Which returns us to the question of why Maurice bothered to unholster and shoot Mueller with the Gun when he presumably had a weapon of his own.

Because. That gun is magically delicious!


I think your spec there is wrong.

As we can clearly see from Not Exactly a Church, Johnny Whitecloud can fly, a power clearly granted to him due to his possession of the Gun. Also, as we see in Atom-Powered Car, Whitecloud looks like "a bronze god," meaning that possession of the Gun also gives you a magnificent burnished tropical tan otherwise unattainable in WWII Germany.

Clearly, it was for these superpowers that Maurice wanted the Gun.

Unfortunately for him, he does not apparently retain possession of the Gun long enough for the transformation, as we are told repeatedly that in 2005 he appears pale and even "pasty."
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:19 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Phaedra wrote:
krystyn wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
Which returns us to the question of why Maurice bothered to unholster and shoot Mueller with the Gun when he presumably had a weapon of his own.

Because. That gun is magically delicious!


I think your spec there is wrong.

As we can clearly see from Not Exactly a Church, Johnny Whitecloud can fly, a power clearly granted to him due to his possession of the Gun. Also, as we see in Atom-Powered Car, Whitecloud looks like "a bronze god," meaning that possession of the Gun also gives you a magnificent burnished tropical tan otherwise unattainable in WWII Germany.

Clearly, it was for these superpowers that Maurice wanted the Gun.

Unfortunately for him, he does not apparently retain possession of the Gun long enough for the transformation, as we are told repeatedly that in 2005 he appears pale and even "pasty."

wow! normally you're so even handed and metered with your responses here on UF. this is a level snark that i don't expect from you during a game
(on LJ otoh, well, that's a different story)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:59 pm
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krystyn
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 		That's because she's right: there was no Scratch 'n' Sniff in 1945, as far as I can Google.

Sad Sad Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:09 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
CoffeeJedi wrote:
wow! normally you're so even handed and metered with your responses here on UF. this is a level snark that i don't expect from you during a game
(on LJ otoh, well, that's a different story)


(Dude. WTF.)

OMG that was not intended to be snark! Sad

I was just having fun with fake spec! Not snarking at anyone. Except, of course, the PMs. Smile

(Every *single* time I leave out the smilies, someone thinks I am being mean. *sigh* I guess I do not get to do deadpan.)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:16 pm
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CoffeeJedi
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
Phaedra wrote:
CoffeeJedi wrote:
wow! normally you're so even handed and metered with your responses here on UF. this is a level snark that i don't expect from you during a game
(on LJ otoh, well, that's a different story)


(Dude. WTF.)

OMG that was not intended to be snark! Sad

I was just having fun with fake spec! Not snarking at anyone. Except, of course, the PMs. Smile

(Every *single* time I leave out the smilies, someone thinks I am being mean. *sigh* I guess I do not get to do deadpan.)

it's only because you're an ICE PRINCESS!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:33 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Re: [SPEC] Whitecloud's death was staged
CoffeeJedi wrote:
it's only because you're an ICE PRINCESS!


/me fixes CoffeeJedi with a cool stare and sniffs regally.

Yes? Your point? Razz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 2:41 pm
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Abraxas
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 		Thanks for poking holes in this awful theory!

I almost forgot about the smilie...here you go:
Laughing

I don't like it very much myself for a couple reasons:
1. I don't know where it says that definitely MPs were arriving at the scene after the shot, but I suppose there is tight security around there, so this is a major problem.
2. Mueller faking death makes no sense and/or is too difficult to pull off, you are exactly right.
3. The theory is based heavily on the current status of those people, which - as we know - isn't telling anything considering past mistakes.
and
4. well...Phaedra already said it:
Quote:
No, no, not heroic Captain Whitecloud! He is goodness and light and apple pie!


Razz

That's what you get for watching too much TV!

@Phaedra
I thought Maurice being Jewish is a problem, because they are in Germany. But it's 1945 and Germans don't have anything to say there, so I guess it was just a question of who killed too many Germans for fun regarding who takes responsibility for the killing of Mueller.
I'm still not sure what motivated Lucky to take the rap for Maurice if he had to fear the same consequences as him. Was Lucky desperate enough with his situation - whatever that is supposed to mean now - to do it? Did he believe that he has better contacts to save him from prison?
That's one part I really don't get, whichever way I look at it. Good friend or not, why would someone do this if he gets in the same trouble? It didn't seem like Maurice had any big issues at that time which would Lucky drive to "save" him, would it?
Confused

Something else:
The fact that there is a comic about the incident suggests that Martin/Maria Halder was an eye-witness to it, right? It's not far-fetched, because he/she was staying with Mueller or was the kid with Whitecloud at that time?
And I can't spot Otto anywhere...where did you people get that from?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:08 pm
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