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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Perplex City » PXC: Questions/Meta
[OT] Views From Earth
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number9dream
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 		[OT] Views From Earth
Thread split from Oct 13 Sentinel, concerning the View From Earth columns and Perplexian distaste for perceived Terran war-mongering. Please, refrain from abusive language and/or personal attacks. Otherwise, have at it! --Cassandra




Quote:

remember these important words from an Earth man who knew the danger of free thought:

"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas?" -- Joseph Stalin, 1879-1953


Ha Ha - imagine if the Perplexians really believed that we thought like this on earth?! Good joke!

Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:06 pm
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European Chris
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Quote:
Ha Ha - imagine if the Perplexians really believed that we thought like this on earth


We do: have you never read the Guardian and the 'left-wing' we claim to have in England.

Curious article MF-this paragraph...."But their version of truth is photos of dead troops being shipped home, stories of chaos and murder, and rallies in the streets with signs that read "No Blood For Oil."'. reminded me of a blog entry of a good friend of mine a few months ago. It's worth quoting in full.

Quote:
For the longest time I have been trying to articulate my political position in the wake of the events of the last few years. This is not to say that it has changed - it has become more articulate, self-aware and educated, but still essentially stayed in the same place for as far back as I can remember. But as the broadest acceptable title for where I stand, "the left", increasingly becomes a phrase I fear, what is going on?

'The left' now refers to the groups of people who will happily go on "Stop The War" marches co-run by extreme right-wing organisations, explaining that it wasn't all run by anti-Semitic bodies, so it's still ok. 'The left' now refers to the people who will endorse George Galloway simply because he disagrees with someone they disagree with, and in doing so accept his fondness for spending time with extreme right-wing dictators, and his endorsement of extreme right-wing groups, and his calls for violent actions against others. 'The left' runs around screaming "TONY BLIAR MORE LIKE!", reducing painfully complicated situations down to black and white arguments wherein they label the perceived opponents as the 'black', and then seem to think that the 'white' requires no definition or identification beyond "not the same as the black".

That's not 'the left' that I used to think of when I heard the phrase. Perhaps the whole association with the extreme right is the immediate giveaway. And it scares me. Because as New Labour moves to the centre, and obviously the Conservatives keep rushing right, the Liberal Democrats still haven't figured out what to do with their new-found leftist position, and those on the left who didn't go with Labour are now acting out on the anger at the betrayal they feel. This anger pushes them to where my friend Martin describes as "around the back of insanity, where they meet up with the extreme rights".


I'm hope that the mojority of people who play this game can recognise the difference between the decent left and modern left but merely being for the war in Iraq and aginst facism is clearly not good enough. when we have passionate people with signs as glib and as meaningless as 'no blood for oil'. What an absurd phrase that's proclaimed as the 'truth', it's a hideous Owellian nightmare that we live in when merely being for these stupid phrases count as a coherrent political position.

We must be pro-Iraqi and pro-democracy in Iraq and that mean being against the disgusting IMF policies currently being saught in Iraq which causes 70% unemployment and the horrendous policies of George Bush (anti-Hussein does not mean pro-Bush althouth the SWP means to think it does) in imposing a consititution which the Iraq people do not want. The war was justified the 'peace' (and I use that word with the most bitterness possible) was not.

The Iraqis, far from being the Islamists that a bunch of quasi-rasicts expected, voted for a constitution full of social justice for all of Iraqis and it was the political pressure from Washington which moved the constitution to a form of capitalism which the whole of America would not expect. And it's horrible.

Apologies for the rant, I've had a few gins. read about it more at a few places who have great writers.

www.hurryupharry.bloghouse.net
www.johannhari.com
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:09 pm
Last edited by European Chris on Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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number9dream
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European Chris wrote:
My word have you never read the Guardian and the 'left-wing' we claim to have in England.


Yes, absolutely.My point was that Johann Hari (and others) would not appreciate their right to ideas and the free-speaking of those, (eg in the Independent newspaper), being curtailed in any way, and rightly so. Shocked

This could get soooo political Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:24 pm
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Brian Morton
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 		Fraggle Rocks!! (um I'm sorry good show bad pun) Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:24 pm
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European Chris
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number9dream wrote:
European Chris wrote:
My word have you never read the Guardian and the 'left-wing' we claim to have in England.


Yes, absolutely.My point was that Johann Hari (and others) would not appreciate their right to ideas and the free-speaking of those, (eg in the Independent newspaper), being curtailed in any way, and rightly so. Shocked

This could get soooo political Confused


And my point was that 'the left' has crowded out any real free speech to such an extent that if you were to make a humanist argument for the war you get shouted down as a 'right wing nut'.

Here's a beautiful example of the guardian's (read 'the left in the UK) current nastiness

Quote:
The moment when bewilderment settled into a steady scorn, however, was when the Guardian ran a web debate entitled: "David Aaronovitch and Nick Cohen are enough to make a good man anti-Semitic". Gorgeously, one vigilant reader complained that the title was prejudiced - the debate should be headlined: "David Aaronovitch and Nick Cohen are enough to make a good man, or woman, anti-Semitic"...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:33 pm
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European Chris
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 		EDIT: I'll think about it in the morning
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:48 pm
Last edited by European Chris on Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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number9dream
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 		[further off-topic]
European Chris wrote:

And my point was that 'the left' has crowded out any real free speech to such an extent that if you were to make a humanist argument for the war you get shouted down as a 'right wing nut'.


This is getting really OT but i really believe that while the apologists for the war of whatever political persuasion have now been made to look like the Neo-con lapdogs they are, it is pleasing to see that there is still the ability in this country to engage in a debate about the war's (il)legitimacy and the right to express 'ideas' freely is maintained. When the day comes when we abandon discussion about war (or sex education in schools, eg) for fear this will lead to more of whatever then will the last one to leave please turn out the lights..... Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:50 pm
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European Chris
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 		Re: [further off-topic]
number9dream wrote:
European Chris wrote:

And my point was that 'the left' has crowded out any real free speech to such an extent that if you were to make a humanist argument for the war you get shouted down as a 'right wing nut'.


This is getting really OT but i really believe that while the apologists for the war of whatever political persuasion have now been made to look like the Neo-con lapdogs they are, it is pleasing to see that there is still the ability in this country to engage in a debate about the war's (il)legitimacy and the right to express 'ideas' freely is maintained.


Well it hasn't-as your post demonstrates.

You've just dismissed any 'apologist for the war' (I make no apologies-I'm glad to see the back of Saddam, it was a revolution a long time in coming) as a neo-con lapdog that they are.

You've just dismissed my humanist trotskyite position as 'neo-con' and still claim to be engaged in a debate. Be serious.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:01 pm
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Spankit
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 		I think I liked it better when the View from Earth articles gave me dinner recipes, not political debates. Don't get me wrong, I love a good debate. It's just that they aren't edible. How about this: one of you two go get me some Taco Bell so I'll have something to eat while I work on my lab report and watch the debate.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:23 pm
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DogsHead
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 		I'll tell you what the friggin problem is here. All the talk, all the propaganda, the left, centre and right factions eye-clawing and sick oportunisim has predictably pulled focus from the one point that still does not get press; America, England and Australia all engineered an illegal invasion of a soveriegn nation for their own fiscal advantage. End of story. Whatever you think of Saddam means nothing. Are you an Iraqi? No? then get the fuck out of the country.
No appologies for political veiw-point. There are absolutes. Innocents die to the tune of our middle-class blatherings.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:58 am
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pickwick the second
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 		While I do enjoy a good political debate, I fear that this is becoming rather vitriolic. Sad Becoming irate and vilifying one's ideological opponents serves no purpose beyond widening the fissure between the political camps at variance.
In America at least, it is not the left or the right individually that are stifling debate; the process is driven by money, the root of all government, through the channel of large corporate donors who also control the media.
I agree with the notion that the Iraq War was unjustified, but have no time at present to elaborate upon my reasons.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:49 am
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Jakeo
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 		Would it be possible to move the Sentinel text to a new thread, so people who don't wish to discuss politics can discuss the content of the articles without having to read through these posts first?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:29 am
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Juxta
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 		Hear hear...all that is required now is for someone to use the "N*zi" word and, well, we'll have degenerated into...every other forum on the interweb!

Seriously, political debate, all fine and good, no disagreements there. However, a new thread would be appreciated, as it's off topic here, and a lot of us would vastly prefer to come here to escape real life for a few minutes each day. Thank you.

J
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:46 am
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European Chris
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 		Agreed, probably should move this somewhere else and reposted for a thread about the articles. Any suggestions where? Laughing

DogsHead wrote:
America, England and Australia all engineered an illegal invasion of a soveriegn nation for their own fiscal advantage. End of story.


Yes. everyone stop thinking NOW. It's the end of the story. nothing more needs to be said.

It's curious you've highlighted the word 'invasion'-yes it was. We also invaded France in 1944. It's not a bad thing to do in some situations. I think I'm going to highlight a different, more important, word you used, Sovereign.

For a nation to considered to have lost it's sovereignty (Self-governing; independent) it needs to satisfy some criteria. Here's four:

1) Participates in regular acts of aggression against other states
2) Violates the letter or spirit of the non proliferation treaty
3) Violates the genocide convention
4) Plays hosts to international terrorists

Iraq did this on many occasions. It's sovereignty was at an end.

Quote:
Whatever you think of Saddam means nothing.


Agreed, what I think of his actions and likely future actions does though.

Quote:
Are you an Iraqi? No? then get the fuck out of the country.


So you belive in Isolationism? You have the same view as Pat Buchanon btw. I was on the stop the march in London. Rather than walking with the Islamists and Islingtonites I was standing with a group of 200 Iraqi exiles who were shock to see so many people support the dictator who raped their country, gassed the population, tortured the olympians and stole from the people.

Quote:
No appologies for political veiw-point. There are absolutes. Innocents die to the tune of our middle-class blatherings.


And Iraq was a happy kite flying country beforehand, innocents weren't dying? You're right, there are absolutes and you've left your morality at the airport.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:51 am
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Spankit
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 		All very good points, but I think we're really getting sidetracked from the main focus of this thread here. I mean, how is any of this going to help me get delicious Taco Bell goodness into my belly. I mean, we could debate the War in Iraq till the cattle comes home. My question is, who's going to slaughter that cattle once they do get home and serve me Grade D beef wrapped in a flour tortilla with cheese?

Sorry, I'm really sleep deprived right now and all I can think about is how we could spend less time on useless political debate and more time on getting me a Grilled Stuffed Burrito. Seriously, getting me Mexican food is more productive than having a political debate on an ARG forum. Think about that before you post your next arguement for/against Saddam Hussein/unicorns and pixie dust, or whatever you guys have boiled this debate down to.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:39 am
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