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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Last Call Poker » LCP: General/Updates
[UPDATE] November 9
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117
Quote:
rose
Do we know that Clay is the most innocent person? Wasn't there something he did that put him in prison?


Maybe most innocent isn't the exact phrase. He did steal money from his parish church to gamble with and he went to prison for it. ( It was in prison that he found God.) That is why he was a defrocked priest.

I don't know how innocent Victor was - but maybe he was the most innocent person to die in our 2005 story.

I am not sure what I mean exactly - I need xnbomb here to help me express what I mean! Clay was the moral and spiritual center of our 2005 story. And one of the most heroic - rescuing Lucy at the cemetery. Helping Kerry -basically ministering in whatever way he could to the people around him.

Thinking about why Clay died I see another reason. Kerry took on the responsibility for Corazon based on Clay's ( questionable) advice. [ And then we have the fact that Corazon saved Clay earlier. ] So Clay, in a way, unintentionally helped to create the circumstance that led to his death.
-----
Re: Kerry. I know I am in a minority here - I think Clay's assessment of him fits who he is the best - a stone cold killer who has a moral compass of some kind that he lives by.

As for:
Quote:
He wasn't killing because Don was ordering him too. He was killing because a federal Marshall asked him to do something that the police can't.


Well, I disagree a bit here too. Kerry thought that Don could send him to jail for the murder of the Schoolteacher - his stepfather. Don essentially blackmailed Kerry into doing these killings with the implicit threat that he could turn him in any time. Those circumstances sound like "ordering" to me - Kerry didn't have an option to refuse.

Further, Don lied to Kerry about almost everything. He used Kerry to wipe out an opposing gang, hire Kink, kill Maurice because of the Gun and kill Victor. To repeat myself, in the video, you can see Kerry's doubt that Victor should be killed - but he does it anyway.

So Kerry wasn't doing things that the police can't do - well they can't legally go up to drug dealers and shoot them in broad daylight so I guess he was - he was murdering people to further Don's interests.

Maybe this comes back to Kerry being a soldier, just following orders and trusting the wrong person. Either way, there is no factual basis in the statement that Kerry was doing what the police can't do - that was just a lie Don used to convince Kerry to follow the program.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:37 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		Re: more ideas
rose wrote:

at the LA memorial, could we make a list of all the people that have died in this game - the good and the bad - and maybe read those names outloud?


That is a very good idea. I'll bring a scroll of the names. I think we should have a flower for each person to drop into the pond as the name is read.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:55 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA

 		Re: musings
rose wrote:
We only have two weeks left.

Or only one week and one day, if it ends on November 19. Crying or Very sad

rose wrote:
I still see Kerry as a stone-cold killer - murderer. The only difference is that he is deciding who to kill on his own rather than following Don's orders.

For the record, Kerry has not "murdered" anyone since he stopped doing Don's bidding. Even the most conservative jury would have to admit that all of the people he shot in "Butch and Sundance" were killed in self-defense. Spider had a gun -- with which she had just killed the then-unarmed Clay -- pointed at his head; Poquito was bringing out his shotgun; Delaje and everyone else were already shooting at Kerry.

rose wrote:
I see him doing nothing to save or protect, or even acknowledge, Clay in the video.

This bothered me a lot, too, until I thought about it some more. They were ambushed, badly outnumbered, surrounded by well-armed thugs. (Hence the title of the clip. Mr. Green ) What on earth could Kerry have done to save Clay? I suppose he could have said something false but reassuring, like, "Stay calm," instead of ignoring him and letting him pull out the gun that Kerry had given him... but Spider was still there to kill Kerry and anyone else who got in the way, in much the same way she killed Lisa (the chauffeur) for no particular reason other than being with William and not being Lucy. So Kerry's inaction still bothers me, but not quite as much as it did at first.

rose wrote:
And any sympathy I would have felt for Kerry, which was unlikely given the ruthless way he killed so many people, ends when I think of him shooting Victor even though he knew he shouldn't and killing Maurice (did we ever find out the reason that Don gave Kerry for killing Maurice?)

Ah, but Kerry didn't know he shouldn't kill Victor at the time. He believed Don's story about the kiddie porn. From Vestal Plastic Wrappings:

Clay wrote:
"I killed a man."

Clay said, "Okay."

"Actually, several men. Must be … quite a few. But only one today. I kill bad people. Very bad people."

Clay slid his hand toward the alarm button under the counter. "Any of these people from around here?"

"If you want to catch fish," the stranger said.

Clay's finger found the emergency button.

"Don't," the stranger said. Clay froze. "They were all bad men," the customer said. "Very bad. But it still seems like I ought to feel sorry about it."

"Ah."

"I mean, a human life. It ought to matter. It ought to bother me."

"But it doesn't."

"Not at all," the stranger said. "Not one damn bit."

It wasn't until Kerry saw the photos in Victor's safety deposit box that he started to wonder whether everything Don was telling him was true. Before that, Kerry honestly believed that he and Don were both interested in ridding the world of truly evil people for whom the legal system was a joke. Clay understood this, which is why he decided to give Kerry the Gun.

As for Maurice, we've never heard the reason Don gave Kerry for killing him. However, we do know that Maurice went around murdering people himself, and was also an arms dealer. I'd speculate that, whatever reason Don gave, it might not have been all that wrong. Having said that, I, too, was rooting for Maurice to win his struggle with Kerry, and quite saddened when he lost.

But even that was one of Bethling's reversals, really, if you think about it. The first time we actually met Maurice, in Unwelcome visitors (September 23, 2005), he broke into Lucy's apartment with a professional killer for a sidekick, and Lucy recognized him as the man to whom she lost her family's house in a poker game. Not the most auspicious of introductions. Kerry killed Maurice less than a week and a half later, on October 4, 2005, but even in that short time we had already begun to sympathize with Maurice and Simon. And we did so even knowing that they went around unilaterally murdering Nazis without benefit of legal process. So why is Maurice any better than Kerry, or Kerry any worse than Maurice? Is it just because you think Kerry was "wrong" in his choice of victims, while Maurice was "right"?

rose wrote:
The justification plot-wise for Don to have Clay killed is pretty thin. Ddn't Kerry have the Colt at Corazon's house? Or maybe I misread that. So what would be the point of asking Clay about it? And doesn't Kerry know that Don has nothing to talk to Clay about when he goes to Clay's apartment to tell Clay to leave town. And instead takes Clay with him to the shootout he was obviously expecting?

Maybe Don knew that Clay was extraneous in terms of getting the gun. Hmmm - Clay was obviously the second shooter at the cemetery (as much as I hate Don, I give him credit for being "good at his job", good enough to figure that out -and yes I know that Don got the lead on Clay from the idea that Matt told him about the gun) so maybe Don had to get rid of him because of that. Don had to see the pictures that Victor took at the cemetery of the shooting. Could he have missed getting a shot of Clay? (Um, did we decide that those pictures which led Lucy to Corazon were sent by Philip Kim to Simon as part of their arrangement?)

(1) Don doesn't know that Kerry has the Gun. You are correct that, according to Makes you a terrorist, Clay gave Kerry the gun before Kerry went over to Corazon's apartment. However, according to Waiting for it, Kerry's hands are empty when he challenges Delaje. Plus, Delaje knows that Don is looking for the Gun, so if he'd spotted it he probably would just have killed Kerry and taken it to Don, game over. So Don still thinks that Matt has the Gun, and that Clay knows where Matt is, which is why he wants Clay. (Kerry, meanwhile, knows only that Don wants to "talk to" Clay without knowing the reason. He doesn't know that it has anything to do with the Gun; he just doesn't trust Don any more, period.)

(2) Correct again, it is now established that Phil Kim sent Victor's photographs to Maurice, according to That's fair:

Simon wrote:
Simon picked up the envelope he had brought downstairs, prints of the photos Maurice had gotten from Phil Kim of the LAPD.

(3) I do not believe that Don wanted Clay dead. I believe that Clay's death was a side-effect of two miscalculations on Don's part: first, talking to Delaje directly and cutting Spider out of the loop, so she didn't know how important Clay was; second, hiring a psychotic like Spider in the first place. I believe that Spider shot Clay just because he was there, and I believe that, had Spider lived, Don would have been furious at her for killing Clay, and probably would have had her killed anyway. Don has a history of ill-timed miscalculations -- if he hadn't hanged Tony just as Toller Fazio was leaving him a message, for example, Don would probably have the Gun already.

I also believe that Kerry, while generally suspicious, was not exactly expecting this ambush at this particular place and time. He really was taking Clay to meet Don. He saw something he didn't like in his rearview mirror -- probably Spider -- so he pulled over and got out of the car. Spider, meanwhile, had only one instruction from Don at this point: kill Kerry. So she gathered her clan and ambushed Kerry and his unwitting passenger. When said passenger pulled a gun, Spider killed him. She killed Lisa for a lot less.

rose wrote:
My favorite prediction is that whatever treasure Don thinks is in the Gun doesn't exist - the Maltese Falcon ending that it was all a waste. (Perhaps Lucky figured out whatever modifications were made to the Gun and took the treasure - and that is the basis of his fortune?)

I still can't figure out how a gun could be the key to a trove of jewels. And I have also wondered whether the jewels are still, in 2005, wherever they were in 1864. I imagine we'll find out this week. (I like your spec that the jewels are the true source of Lucky's money, for at least two reasons: first, it explains where he got his money, since he didn't get the Nazi gold; second, it explains why he left such a dangerous legacy to his favorite grand-niece -- because he thought it wasn't dangerous any longer. Silly Lucky. No wonder he feels bad.)

rose wrote:
Also - do we think both Matt and Lucy will survive? Can Matt really get clear of the crimes he comitted? Now that Ben Rojas, the man we had so much hope for in solving this, is dead - will there be a case against him? Can Phil Kim fix it? Will Kerry get off for being the vigilante killer of gang members from both gangs?

I think Matt will survive, and -- since I think Don won't -- he'll probably even be able to go home. I hope Lucy will survive, because if she doesn't we're all going to feel really lousy. And I think Kerry, if he survives, will disappear into the mists without facing the prosaic legal system.

rose wrote:
Another question I have about this story is that Don is just not a credible character. Certainly the cops should be aware enough that something is going on with him. Other people have suggested that the Gun itself is evil in some way so that if you crave it or seek it, it makes you more and more of a monster. ( yes, like the One Ring and the Sullivans are the hobbits who can use it without being ensnared by its evil powers. Don't know where that leaves Lucky though. )

My $0.02: It's not the Gun. Don, like so many before him, is motivated primarily by greed. That's it. People like Don blame the Gun and Destiny and lofty stuff like that to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of their own questionable choices. Other people, like Colton White, Ambrose Bierce, and Lucky and Lucy Brown, don't feel mysteriously compelled by it to go about murdering folk for no reason. I say again: it's not the Gun; it's just Greed. (Although I have a feeling that a few key PMs might just disagree with me on this. Mr. Green )

My favorite Don moment so far is from The river, when he (unconsciously?) paraphrases another famous murderer who claimed to be at the mercy of his Destiny. Some Scottish guy. From Macbeth, Act III, scene iv, lines 136-138:

William Shakespeare wrote:
I am in blood
Stepp'd in so far that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er.

I can't get the movie to run on my computer at the moment Mad , so I can't give you Don's exact statement to Tony, but trust me, it's pretty darn close.

rose wrote:
Speaking of Western movie themes - did we find the spot that Shado found the offering in any old Western. I think the clue was that it was the place that Hart camped? I will keep looking.

Yes. The large rock formation directly opposite Indian Head Rock was the Lone Ranger Rock, so named because the Lone Ranger and Silver reared up before it in the opening title sequence of the Lone Ranger television show. You can see a bit of it on the right side of the picture. And yes, William S. Hart used to pitch his tent in a nearby clearing every night while he was filming there.

rose wrote:
And I don't know how we missed finding that clue on Saturday! We have missed crucial bits in almost every update! I think that the story is so dense with information that we assume we have everything. And then the next update is even more complex because we have to catch up from what we should have gotten earlier plus all the new stuff.

Plus, as Phaedra quite perceptively pointed out quite some time ago, the evil PMs have distracted us with poker. Mr. Green

So, am I crazy, or was this last update on Wednesday the first one we've had with no puzzle of any kind? Did we miss something again?
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:06 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		the Gun
Quote:
I think we should have a flower for each person to drop into the pond as the name is read.

Nice idea Kona! I didn't know that we knew there was a pond there -but sounds great.

I also thank you for the idea of setting up the offering to Victor.

Can we do something extra special for Lucky? Maybe encode a message to him in a poker hand as well as some flowers? I've gotten rather fond of him and would like to say good-bye and rest in peace.
----
One more thing about teh evil Gun - maybe people who don't seek the Gun - but have it given to them- are safe from harm from it?

Like the pawn shop owners, Colt, Lucky and Lucy - each had the Gun given to them without seeking it. But Clay wanted it and took it from the cemetery, even though he returned it to Lucy. Maurice was looking for it and knew something more than Lucy did about it (as does Simon possibly- though he doesn't seem too concerned with possessing it). Johnny Whitecloud had it given to him -but he was taking it to a poker game, and that always spells death.

So is that the way it works? You have to have the Gun given to you (frodo) and not seek it (see list of dead characters who sought the throughout this forum)? And even if it is given to you, you can't take it near a poker game?

Victor and Kink were victims of Don's desire for the Gun.

I know that other people have had this thought all along - it is just starting to make sense to me. ( there isn't a Mt. Doom anywhere near LA is there? Or maybe it has to go back to the Colt factory where it was "forged" to be destroyed. : ) )
Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:10 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

 		We don't know where the L.A. event is being held yet, nor where we will be asked to do the offering, do we?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:16 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality
krystyn wrote:
We don't know where the L.A. event is being held yet, nor where we will be asked to do the offering, do we?


Nope, but I have spec'd that it could be at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery (previously Hollywood Memorial) and I believe the website shows a pond or other body of water.

Course, I'm also spec'ing that there will be live action with the actors from the 2005 storyline (or maybe it's just wishfull thinking) and possible live action internet video feed for those stuck at home (since this cemetery has that capability - or that might be more wishfull thinking).
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:32 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117
Quote:
For the record, Kerry has not "murdered" anyone since he stopped doing Don's bidding


Still, he is a murderer for all the other people he killed - Schoolteacher, Paco, Victor, Maurice, Sam and maybe others.

Quote:
So why is Maurice any better than Kerry, or Kerry any worse than Maurice? Is it just because you think Kerry was "wrong" in his choice of victims, while Maurice was "right"?


I'm not sure where I said that! I dont remember comparing one killer to another- except to say that Maurice survived so maybe Kerry would as well. I don't recall ever posting something approving of Maurice's actions. If I give that impression, let me clarify that Maurice seems much like Kerry in his serial killing and his blind belief that what he is doing is the right thing. And I don't approve or sympathize with either one. Maurice shooting Father Mueller was very distressing to me.

Also, I note that Maurice killed a man who was already in prison - so the whole idea of slipping through the system doesn't apply there. I was not a fan of Maurice, but I still don't think he "deserved" to be murdered. (as far as I can tell, the whole story of why Maurice, a supposedly unkown European who actually knew Lucky, took Lucy's father's house in a card game still needs to be explained.)

Quote:
Don doesn't know that Kerry has the Gun


I was assuming that since Don knows who Clay talks to, and he has been watching Kerry very closely, he would have seen the two of them together. Could he know that Clay had the Gun and had given it to Kerry? Maybe that was too much of an assumption on my part.

I just know that Don is an unreliable narrator - misleading us along with the characters in the story. I don't believe he intended to talk to Clay. I think at the very least he knew that Clay was the second shooter at the cemetery - but again I can be assuming too much. Don seems to know a whole lot about what is happening in the world. I would assume that he knows about Simon too - as Simon and Maurice worked together. And that he made sure Kerry killed Maurice when Simon wasn't around.

About the evil qualities of the Gun - maybe the story will just have to speak for itself.

About the fortune hidden in the Gun... who knows about that? We only have a bit of evidence about the "modifications." I didn't buy that idea early on, but why would Don want it so badly? Alone it just isn't worth that much - compared to the number of lives it cost. I was assuming, again, that the reason Don wanted Lucy alive with the Gun (remember he asked Kink not to kill her) was because there is a secret of some kind associated with it that he assumed she would know. Otherwise, he could have easily had Kink kill her at the same time as Robert in the very beginning of the story!

As for the general idea of reversals - maybe I just don't reverse as easily as some people do. I never really trusted Maurice with finding the Gun; but somehow I did trust Simon to protect her. And I have been going on and on about Kerry the killer - dude, he hasn't changed, he is just killing different people. I understand the self-defense argument, but the guy is a serial killer. I just don't find him that sympathetic.

I do understand that almost everyone else does.

But if only one person could survive that ambush, I would pick Clay without hesitating.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:01 pm
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Bethling
Boot


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 19
Location: Seattle Area
rose wrote:


Well, I disagree a bit here too. Kerry thought that Don could send him to jail for the murder of the Schoolteacher - his stepfather. Don essentially blackmailed Kerry into doing these killings with the implicit threat that he could turn him in any time. Those circumstances sound like "ordering" to me - Kerry didn't have an option to refuse.


I must have missed the part about the blackmail. Where was that? I remember Don telling him if he still "believed" in what "they" were doing, and about catching those who fall through the cracks.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:57 am
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Astald
Unfettered

Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
Location: Just outside of Pittsburgh (Go Steelers!)
Bethling wrote:

I must have missed the part about the blackmail. Where was that?

Here you go.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:10 am
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA

 		Re: Kerry
rose wrote:
Quote:
So why is Maurice any better than Kerry, or Kerry any worse than Maurice? Is it just because you think Kerry was "wrong" in his choice of victims, while Maurice was "right"?

I'm not sure where I said that! I dont remember comparing one killer to another- except to say that Maurice survived so maybe Kerry would as well. I don't recall ever posting something approving of Maurice's actions. If I give that impression, let me clarify that Maurice seems much like Kerry in his serial killing and his blind belief that what he is doing is the right thing. And I don't approve or sympathize with either one.

You didn't. My bad. Embarassed I made an assumption, based on the fact that you listed Kerry killing Maurice as one of the two reasons you could muster no sympathy for Kerry, that you felt some for Maurice despite his past.

rose wrote:
(as far as I can tell, the whole story of why Maurice, a supposedly unkown European who actually knew Lucky, took Lucy's father's house in a card game still needs to be explained.

Good point. I SPECulate that Maurice didn't know she was related to his old war buddy Lucky when he gave her the worst beat of her life. Although that brings to mind another thing that hasn't really been explained: Why were Maurice and Simon looking for the Gun in the first place? Something about "an old debt"? To Lucky?

Lucky tried to give Lucy money when she lost the house, and she wouldn't take it. Could Lucky have found out that Maurice was the winner in that particular card game after the fact, and called him on it? Is that why Maurice felt obligated to "protect" Lucy... by taking the Gun from her before she got hurt? No, that doesn't quite fit. I'm missing a step somewhere. Hmm.

rose wrote:
Quote:
Don doesn't know that Kerry has the Gun

I was assuming that since Don knows who Clay talks to, and he has been watching Kerry very closely, he would have seen the two of them together. Could he know that Clay had the Gun and had given it to Kerry? Maybe that was too much of an assumption on my part.

If Don knew Clay had the Gun, he'd've sent his thugs after Clay long ago. Unlike Matt, Clay was easy to find, right at the Deli-Mart.

rose wrote:
I just know that Don is an unreliable narrator - misleading us along with the characters in the story. I don't believe he intended to talk to Clay. I think at the very least he knew that Clay was the second shooter at the cemetery - but again I can be assuming too much. Don seems to know a whole lot about what is happening in the world. I would assume that he knows about Simon too - as Simon and Maurice worked together. And that he made sure Kerry killed Maurice when Simon wasn't around.

(1) If Don knew Clay was the second shooter at the cemetery, why the heck didn't he send someone after Clay two months ago? He sent Spider after Lucy right away. What possible motive would Don have for ignoring Clay all this time, and then coincidentally wanting to "talk to" him -- and I agree, Don probably wanted to "talk to" Clay about as much as he wanted to "talk to" Johnny Deuces -- only when he finds out that Clay might know something about Matt's whereabouts? No, I remain convinced that Don still thinks Matt has the Gun, and has no idea that Clay ever had it.

(2) I have to think that Don had nothing to do with the convenient timing of Maurice's death. Don found out from Phil Kim, on October 4, 2005, that Maurice was asking about the Gun, so he told Kerry to kill him, which Kerry did that very night. Now, it's possible that Kerry did his own research and found out that Maurice and Simon would be separated on the night of Rosh Hashanah, but frankly I think it's more likely that Kerry simply tailed Maurice until he was alone somewhere.

rose wrote:
About the evil qualities of the Gun - maybe the story will just have to speak for itself.

Yeah, and like I said, I suspect those writing the story would agree with you, not me. Wink

rose wrote:
But if only one person could survive that ambush, I would pick Clay without hesitating.

No question, Clay is more sympathetic. But can you really see the old ex-priest dodging bullets and shooting all those Mi Casa scumbags, when according to Lucy he can barely hold a gun properly in the first place? Yes, it's a shame both of them didn't survive, but if only one could, logically Kerry's the only one who had a chance.

(And, from a purely plot-justification point of view, Kerry has a much better likelihood of being useful to Lucy, William, Matt, and Corazon in the final showdown with Don than poor Clay would have been.)
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:28 am
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Arana
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Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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 		Rose, thanks much for starting this discussion!

I had comments on your post that I didn't have time to write when I first read it. Now the interplay between you , Shad0 and the others has pretty much covered all the things I had been thinking about.

Regarding the ceremony for the dead. I have been trying to keep up the Whose killing who page on The Wiki as a small effort to the cause. It may help complete the list. If anyone notices people I have missed, please fill them in. I am especially curious if I missed a named character who was killed by Kerry in Butch and Sundance. Fill them in or let me know here and I will edit. Was Jimmy (from the guarding of William) one of them?

I was trying to make a mental list of who McPherson has left. Certainly there is Shawn Claverias (Architect). Do you think that Vaquero might also work for Don? Spider, Delaje and Poquito seem to link him to Mi Casa, but he seems less like "muscle".

I will miss another update tomorrow at Soccer! Have fun all!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:54 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		McPherson
Quote:
I was trying to make a mental list of who McPherson has left. Certainly there is Shawn Claverias (Architect). Do you think that Vaquero might also work for Don? Spider, Delaje and Poquito seem to link him to Mi Casa, but he seems less like "muscle".


I think that Don has or had until our man Kerry killed them all, enough "muscle" to make it good sense for Vaquero to work with him if not for him. So yes I would link him with Don ( also the fact our sweet Shaylee was put in jail with Lucy hints at a link.)

But Don himself is a ruthless killer and he knows Kerry well. So he has an advantage there.
Does Don still have the ability to work with the Federal Drug taskforce?
I missed that whole Wednesday update. Maybe our boy Matt can call them down on Don this time.

Forces against Don
Us.
Simon, Kerry, Corazon, Matt.
(personally, I want Corazon to kill Don at a standoff between Don and Kerry.)
----
As for the Kerry v. Clay debate - we will never be sure if Clay could have been useful to Lucy as the story has passed him by. Lucy has her killer-champion in Simon as well as herself. (Does Don think she is dead after the killing of the substitute limo driver?)

Remember: he saved Lucy's life by chasing off Kink in the cemetery; taking the Gun when Robert told him (in the video) that "the Gun, they are going to kill her for it" -or words to that effect; and urging Lucy to tell Maurice and Simon about him as a second shooter when they were menacingly looking for the Gun.

Also, Shadow has convinced me that, unless Lucy's voicemail contained info about the Gun and was intercepted by Don, Clay successfully hid the Gun for weeks from the throngs of violent people searching for it.

And we cant forget that Clay invited Kerry to his home, took him for coffee and listened to him - all the while knowing that Kerry was a serial killer. (Clay's words.)

Can I be more of a champion for Clay? I just don't want his several key contributions to the story and the characters to be ignored. He isn't a man of violence so he can easily be forgotten in the action-packed adventure of our story. Wink

I am not ignoring Kerry's courage in leaving Don despite Don's hold over him and his planning to run away from LA and leave his number with Corazon. Or that he may not have expected the ambush there - at least he came prepared when he brought Clay to "talk" to Don ("guns are a kind of talking" makes it sound like Kerry strongly anticipated the ambush). I just point out that Clay brings a unique element to the story.

----
Any ideas about the romantic outcomes, if any, in this story? Will Lucy be reunited with her family and lose her judgmental attitude? Will Lucy and Simon end up together? Lucy and Will? Lucy and Kerry? (I am not giving Matt and Lucy as a choice, sorry. ;: )

Will Matt go home to his family without the feds on his back or is he going to jail?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:49 am
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EGo
Unfettered


Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 545
Location: Wasting time in east New Jersey

 		I'll stay out of the Kerry... debate... other than to say that I am sad that Clay died, but I like Kerry and am very interested in his redemption.

Arana wrote:
Regarding the ceremony for the dead. I have been trying to keep up the Whose killing who page on The Wiki as a small effort to the cause. It may help complete the list. If anyone notices people I have missed, please fill them in. I am especially curious if I missed a named character who was killed by Kerry in Butch and Sundance. Fill them in or let me know here and I will edit. Was Jimmy (from the guarding of William) one of them?


Deaths that come to mind which aren't listed:

1945
Johnny Whitecloud - Gunther
Svetlana - two refugees, one of whom was M.'s father

1914
Hearst - Bierce
JSC - Rosita's brother

1876
McCall - Hickok
Grouard - bowler hat; bowler hat's John-Woo-style friend
Colton - Hollister [eventually]
Angry mob - McCall
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:53 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA

 		Re: [UPDATE] November 9
Dia de los Muertos
I was thinking of trying to wander out to the Garden of the Gods some time tomorrow. You know, visiting the spot where Corazon left her altar to Vic.

Anyone interested in joining me?

(I might be able do it a different day, if necessary.)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:38 am
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Hey, I'll come! I've wanted to go out there!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:52 pm
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