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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Old News & Rumors
[MM] [META] Discussion
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Milwaukee

[MM] [META] Discussion

Hi all,

Although my unf title is Veteran, I am still very much a n00b when it comes to ARGs. The three I'm currently playing are my first three ever and I've only been here (indeed, only really known about ARGs) for about 2 months. Still, I have some ideas and opinions that I'd like to discuss here and get your ideas, too.

There has been a teeny tiny amount of PM interaction (I think), but I want to get a good discussion started before I throw that in. I know, I've now piqued your curiosity and not satisfying it. Twisted Evil Trust me, it's nothing major or worth worrying about and it certainly does not reveal any important info. When I do decide to post about it, it will mainly be a discussion about the fact that it happened and your opinions on that, rather than the actual content of the message.

Anyway, I'll open the floor to anyone before I begin. What are your thoughts on the direction this game is going?

VERY IMPORTANT EDIT: I want to make it clear that while I think it is alright to vent frustrations you may have with this game, let's not turn this into a PM-bashing forum. I have seen such threads destroy a game within a matter of hours (granted, that one was deserved because the PM was grossly breaking unfiction and unforum rules repeatedly after being warned), and I do not think anyone wants this game to simply meltdown.

I, for one, have a great respect for all PMs and while running a game is something I have a vague hope of doing one day, it is not something I could possibly do today. Therefore, whatever our feelings are about this game, let us strive to critique rather than criticize. While venting frustrations is sometimes necessary, let's try to have a discussion that is constructive. We've all put a lot of time into this game and I hope to see that through to completion.

_________________
"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
"Good," said Aslan. "If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not ."


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:04 am
Last edited by Caspian on Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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labfly
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
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Location: nyc or the haunted house in maine

thanks for putting this up, caspian

this arg is all over the place Confused -- i don't believe that the pm has any idea where his story is going and he's using our posts to inform any twists or changes he's making.. honestly, i have continued to play to see what the pm is going to do next and how he'll ever put an ending on this.. so i guess i'm really observing him rather than getting involved in some server story (the story started out okay but, for me, it has weakened to the point that we, the players, have created more entertainment with our wild specs than he has with his plot)

and as far as the "behind the curtain" subject goes.. i received an email about a month ago from some kid on bebo named adam davis
Technohead3d.bebo.com (aka jordan davis prehaps Idea )
i'm not sure why he wanted to put me on his contact list but whatever.. he's young and maybe he got excited about who was playing his game--?? i dunno.
_________________
r u a sammeeeee? yep.
resident of Snow Town
(friend of Peeps & Peg)


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:51 am
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Milwaukee

First, let me edit my original post to clarify why I put this up and what I'd like and not like to happen here. :edits: I don't mean to imply that your post went against the edit above, labfly, I just want to make sure it doesn't spiral into something destructive.

Second, I understand you point and your frustration, labfly. The story does seem a bit like a riding a rollercoaster with your eyes closed. I mean, first we think we're trying helping captives, then it turns out we're also looking for a doctor that was presumed dead (ok so far)...then bam! we're talking about huge metaphysical concepts and the fate of thousands of human souls...then bam! wait, no all that's a lie, we're really dealing with a mental patient...then bam! wait, no, that was a lie, back to the whole metaphysical story...maybe...or not...we don't really know because there are too many boys and girls crying wolf for us to be certain. Bang Head

My suspicion is that the PM wanted to have the players play out a story while there was a secret story behind the scenes... Reminds me of the ilovebees characters turning off the device (necessary) but at the same time playing into Pious Flea's attempt to alert the Covies to the location of Earth. But I digress...

If that was indeed the PMs intent, then I fear I am partly to blame for the sudden plot changes. I did, after all, contact Jordan and tell him I was willing to be a spy. If the PM believed that I would seriously assist Jordan and betray the rest of the players, then his or her idea was wrecked when it turned out that I was actually acting as a double agent with true loyalty to the players, not Jordan. I think the psychward-storyline was an attempt at reagaining the idea of 'duping the players into help the bad guy' motif. This time, the PM contacted me directly (I think). I received the following email minutes after receiving the "Did they buy it?" email from Jordan:
someone behind the curatin (i think) wrote:
[PM}You will not tell.If you do keep the secret then there will be an award at the end of all this

The [PM} is what makes me think that the PM is contacting me here. However, this could have been Jordan's "PS" to his last email with a typo. Anyway, if the PM really did want to recruit a player to be behind the curtain, this would be one way to go about it. But in my opinion, this attempt was too little, too late. In general, I think a PM email is bad form (I reiterate my n00bishness; perhaps this is acceptable in certain circumstances). It totally destroys the TINAG concept, which I enjoy. However, a PM email might have been acceptable when I first emailed Jordan about being a spy. I mean, if you're going to base a major plot change on the fact that a player is going to join the "bad guy" and betray his fellow players, you should either be 100% sure of it (PM email) or have a contingency plan that won't give your players plotline whiplash. At any rate, I decided to simply ignore the PM email (if that is indeed what it was). I continued as I would have without it, which was to alert the player community of the info from Jordan.

Assuming I'm right so far, in the PM's defense I really think the 'dupe the player into helping the bad guy' concept is a great idea. It makes for a very good plot twist and a this cool 'OMG what have I done?' feeling at the end (if you haven't seen it, rent the movie Arlington Road). But you have to pull it off correctly for it to work. If Jordan wouldn't have started spewing information to me about the true purpose of the servers, I think this concept could have been pulled off believably. I made him believe that I would keep his secret and then betrayed him. So it's partly my fault. But honestly, if you're playing the "bad guy" you need to expect people to try and gain your trust in order to bring you down.

And just for completeness, this is all my own speculation. The PM may not have been attempting the concept I think he was. I'm speaking very much from the hypoteical realm. I do hope that we get to have a PM chat after this game is finished.

Anyway, that's my META rant for now. I'm very interested to hear what the rest of you think, especially those of you who aren't as new to the genre as I am. I think that this is still a fun game and sincerely hope that it doesn't meltdown after all these plot twists. I fully intend to play it to completion if at all possible. And no matter what mistakes have been made my hat is off to the PM(s) because, as I said earlier, running a game must take time, skill, and quite frankly courage. It is something I definitely could not do...at least not yet. Worshippy
_________________
"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
"Good," said Aslan. "If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not ."


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:47 pm
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labfly
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
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Location: nyc or the haunted house in maine

sorry if my above post seemed "negative" but it really wasn't meant to be a bash at the pm -- i was just stating that i don't believe the pm is clear about his storyline if he's constantly feeding off our forum.. kinda the "seat of your pants" style of storytelling.. and i became curious as to how he would (or if he could) pull it off

and i think its fine if a pm wants to use a player in the plot -- that's great
and fun and adds to the interactive quality of the game
_________________
r u a sammeeeee? yep.
resident of Snow Town
(friend of Peeps & Peg)


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:16 pm
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Puppy_Zwolle
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 969
Location: Not Zwolle anymore. really no kiddin'

labfly wrote:
kinda the "seat of your pants" style of storytelling.. and i became curious as to how he would (or if he could) pull it off
Yep. You are venting our sentiments.. but indeed I think that is the point of our PM... make us doubt EVERYTHING. Maybe the 'real' story has not even started yet.

[edit] below could be what the real story is all about..... or I need to check with my shrink for an appointment for accute paranoia.

caspian_x wrote:
I've only been here (indeed, only really known about ARGs) for about 2 months

caspian_x wrote:
Reminds me of the ilovebees characters turning off the device (necessary) but at the same time playing into Pious Flea's attempt to alert the Covies to the location of Earth. But I digress...

For about 2 months? Damn now I'm even suspicious of you. And I should be as you are a double agent... maybe even a triple agent....but maybe I digress Twisted Evil

My belief is we are 'following' a fixed set of events that are triggered by what idea's we vent. Either here or ingame makes no difference. The story should unfold. How and when is upto the PM. Thats what he does 'unfold'. (I like how that sounds) And it being like a rolercoaster is confusing now but I like it.

The [PM} I think thats bad-form. If its a troll so be it. If its the PM then no way is this good. You play. You are 'recruited' by Jordan. To recruit you double by making you a in-game-character......

wait a sec....

Stop the presses....

This whole thing has become about reallity.... meta is a game-element. Therefore.... messing with the rules in this is ingame.

Can you follow?

We popped from servers to a new reality. The doc being shizoid persons.
Thats moving to a more real world.
Now we move to the 'real-world' that is the game in our world.

Let me put it this way:
"Caspian-x: How would you like it if you found out you were a fictional character?"
Maybe that's what you are already... did you check your vital signs lately? You being fan of Narnia and Lewis Carol does make me even more suspicious......... OH BROTHER!!!

If this mail is from our PM then he's either a very sloppy rulekeeper or a brilliant strategist. I opt for the second one as that is the only one that will keep me 'in-game'.

Meta is a nice word but I am beginning to suspect we are meta-gaming here and not 'just' meta-discussing.
_________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:04 pm
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Location: Milwaukee

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
For about 2 months? Damn now I'm even suspicious of you. And I should be as you are a double agent... maybe even a triple agent....but maybe I digress Twisted Evil

Let me explain myself. About two months ago, being bored at work and being the avid (almost obsessive) Halo fan that I am, I was looking at Halo Story websites. I kept reading about this Durga, some artifact that may or may not be 'The Ark', and a lot of other things I was not familiar with. I followed links to ilovebees, argn, unfiction...and the rest is history. I spent countless hours reliving ilovebees as best I could by reading the guide, listening to the axon plot (several times), reading the archives of the posted text, listening to live calls (Op/SP), and listening to the post-game phone chat. I was HOOKED. So I now call myself a "beelated beekeeper". I had no idea what an ARG even was more than a couple months ago. And trust me, I am not a PM or working with a PM for this or any other game. I stumbled into this game because I got IMmed from riddlemask and thought it was a character from VaporLofts, another ARG in which the main character's name is Anne.

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
And it being like a rolercoaster is confusing now but I like it.

I kind of like it too, but at the same time it has an unprofessional feel to it. Which is fine because this is (almost certainly) an indie/grassroots game. But still, I don't think the players should feel that. I dunno, I just feel like the story has lost credibility and for us to take it seriously we have to have at least some idea of what makes up this universe and what doesn't.

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
The [PM} I think thats bad-form. If its a troll so be it. If its the PM then no way is this good. You play. You are 'recruited' by Jordan. To recruit you double by making you a in-game-character......

It's not a troll. The message came from Jordan's address. Like I said, it could just be a typo PS...but I doubt it.

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
wait a sec....

Stop the presses....

This whole thing has become about reallity.... meta is a game-element. Therefore.... messing with the rules in this is ingame.

Can you follow?

No, I'm not really following the rest of your post at that point, actually. Maybe PM me r something, cuz I don't know where you're going. Unless you're just joking around. Then :SLAP: me.

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
Maybe that's what you are already... did you check your vital signs lately? You being fan of Narnia and Lewis Carol does make me even more suspicious......... OH BROTHER!!!

First of all, King Caspian X (formerly Prince Caspian) is a fictional character. Unless this Dr. Pepper is also fictional (which is possible...it does taste rather sugary today), I'm pretty sure I'm real. I think therefore I am or something like that. Wink And by the way, Narnia was written by C.S. Lewis, not Lewis Carol (Alice in Wonderland, I believe)!!! Mad

Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
Meta is a nice word but I am beginning to suspect we are meta-gaming here and not 'just' meta-discussing.

Again, not really following... Smile
_________________
"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
"Good," said Aslan. "If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not ."


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:03 pm
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Obes
Unfettered

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 329
Location: England

Someone say Lewis Caroll?

(note the L's - though I'm probably typoing myself).

I'm the Caroll fan - hence the mad hatter remarks.

I've said my piece already, albeit I missed the meta marks in one post (sorry about that).

Now, let's see where this goes.

Obes.
The Ungratefully Had Matter.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:05 pm
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Puppy_Zwolle
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Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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Location: Not Zwolle anymore. really no kiddin'

caspian_x wrote:
And by the way, Narnia was written by C.S. Lewis,
Oh dear Embarassed Sorry about that.

No I was not goofing around. Ok the part about you already being a fictional character was but not the idea behind it.

Let me try again.
Look at it as Alice comming out of the rabithole but still ready and able to play she played in there. What rules should she follow?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Arg is alternate reality gameing. Define alternate....... don't, just but keep it in mind.

The theme's through the game so far is are: Trust, , change/revolution, what is real?, Meta.

With meta I mean: doc being doc but not. After all he's dead and 15 years old instead of 90. Or psycotic and not himself. Jordan being a friend but then the enemy. Double agents that are talking double talk. (It is not as clear as a 1st-person-shooter where if you killed it it was a badguy. Thats linear. This is far from linear. It is stacking stories. Hence meta)

The server is the alternate reality we started out with. Recycling souls, ancient Jordan.

Alternate is bizar to say the least

Then we got popped to a more realistic alternate world where the doc is a mental patient and this is all in his head.

Alternate is becomming more real.

Now the PM is recruiting caspian_x as a ... npc (for lack of a better term)
Alternate has arived in our world.

The game has become 'real'.

The plot stays the same. "You and him against 'us'. One big change to the story; it is the players now that are changing. Hence the remark of you becomming a fictonal character if you should join the PM.

He (the PM) has brought the ARG from a bizar alternate world into a bizar not-so-alternate world. The most alternate about this is he's messing with rules we thought we had... so far but then..

Or even: This is not the PM mailing you.... this is a fictional character mailing you. This fictional character is a PM where the game is entering this almost real world and he (orshe) just has to break the rules.

I fear it has only just begone.
-----------------------------------------------------

I have to admit this is of the wall and could be completely false. I would just love if this was it....... but then I just spoiled a plot that was 2 months in the making. I'm sticking with this. Evidence and feel are to strong to ignore in this rather madning ARG.
_________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:10 pm
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
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Duality

Alright, I think I understand what you are talking are trying to say. That would be a very cool path if that's what is going on. And I will keep it in mind.

Sadly, I don't think that's what's happening. I stand by my original idea that the PM wanted to create a huge ruse where we, the players, were duped into thinking we were doing good, when in reality we were helping the "bad guy". Here's how I see the game has progressed:

* First, I think the idea was make us aware of the people in the servers by using Riddlemask and directing us to menace-media.
* Then, we were introduced to this Jordan who wanted to find Dr. Munchen. Since that aligned with what we had been told about him from Riddlemask, we figured he was a good guy.

At that point, he had us. If Jordan would have kept pretending to be a good guy while dropping subtle hints that all were not what they seemed (like the descriptions of the servers and the lists of memory wiping) he could have carried out the duality and revealed only too late that we helped him trap someone in the servers who was on the brink of escape. Instead, Jordan flaunted a bit. He revealed that he was in charge of the servers. This caused me to pretend to be his ally while keeping loyalty to the players and the server souls.

* The PM thinks he can trust me and reveals the true nature of the plot.
* I betray the PM and relay that information to all of you.
* "Oh crap!" says the PM. "My duality is gone! Wait! Haha! A new cover story: psych ward!!!"
* The PM tries to get me to play along again.
* I betray the PM again because, as a player, my loyalties are to my fellow players.

I could very well be wrong and Puppy could be right in thinking that the PM is trying to bring meld the ARG with the real. I think that strategy is inherently doomed to failure because of the nature of ARGs. Or, maybe neither of us is right and this could be exactly what was intended all along, but still staying withing the same basic framework of the ARG. Who knows?

Incidentally, Jordan has sent me another email (see the in-game thread) in which he references his little "[PS]" email. So he's denying that it was a message directly from the PM. Odd that he mentions this after I speculate about it in this thread... Evil or Very Mad
_________________
"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
"Good," said Aslan. "If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not ."


PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:47 pm
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Puppy_Zwolle
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What ever the truth. Our PM is one slippery dude. Wink
I'ma actually having more fun with this "pm hunt" then I had with 'hunting the doc'.
_________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:30 am
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Puppy_Zwolle
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Location: Not Zwolle anymore. really no kiddin'

I don't trust happy endings that fall out of the sky. Call me "Paranoia Puppy".

And now, the end is near;
And so I face the final curtain.
My friend, I'll say it clear,
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full.
I've traveled each and ev'ry highway;
And more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Regrets, I've had a few;
But then again, too few to mention.
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course;
Each careful step along the byway,
But more, much more than this,
I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it my way.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried.
I've had my fill; my share of losing.
And now, as tears subside,
I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that;
And may I say - not in a shy way,
" Oh no, oh no not me,
I did it my way".

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught.
To say the things he truly feels;
And not the words of one who kneels.
The record shows I took the blows -
And did it my way!

_________________
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Einstein

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:45 am
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Caspian
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Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 265
Location: Milwaukee

Would anyone else enjoy a Post-game PM chat? I know I would. PM if you are indeed lurking here, please contact us!
_________________
"I - I don't think I do, Sir," said Caspian. "I'm only a kid."
"Good," said Aslan. "If you had felt yourself sufficient, it would have been a proof that you were not ."


PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:32 pm
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teh_lisa
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Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 950
Location: my chair

credits

I have a credits list for M-M (received from David Preacher) and thought I would post it for everyone so here it goes:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Script by Katie Lewis
Project Head was Michael Downing
Jordan was played by Richard Davis
David Preacher was lead on Matzai Conversation
Design by Claire Byrne
Research by Kelly Wood
Backup Communicators were Jerry Evans and Haley Carson
Editing by Fred Stone
Camera by Cedil Ryan
and the actor of the final film was David Justins


cheers

lisa anne

[edited look as pretty as the one below Smile]

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:11 pm
Last edited by teh_lisa on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Obes
Unfettered

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 329
Location: England

Guys, here's the end credits I was allowed to post. If you are a fan of the curtain remaining forever in its place do NOT roll over the spoiler block.


You have been warned.

And warned again for good measure Wink.


Spoiler (Rollover to View):


The following Credits are from David Preacher (Who contacted me today and graciously allowed me to post the credits Very Happy)

Lead Matzai Communicator - David Preacher

Scripting - Katie Lewis

Project Head - Michael Downing

Research - Kelly Wood

Design - Claire Bryne

Editing - Fred Stone

Camera - Cedil Ryan

Cast...

Jordan - Richard Davis

Back up Communicators - Jerry Evans and Haley Carson

'Carl' aka Hands in the Ending Video Wink - David Justins



AND... some interesting facts ...

Spoilers AGAIN... WARNING!

Spoiler (Rollover to View):


There were 3 endings, and all were shot, and prepared for the last contact.

One ending had everything going back to 'normal'... ie.. Jordan won.

One ending (ours) had the server shut down.

The last ending Carl found Munchen which lead to them both getting out. This lead to a portal being opened through which "ghosts" came out of and "stole" the bodies of living people. This was the ending where all the Matzai escaped.

(But it sounds a little scary huh?)

There will also be an official Post-Game Chat, that I believe PatRol is organising?



DISCLAIMER - I am and was in no way connected to the running and acting of this game. I've never run an ARG myself (I can dream though). My hat goes off to everyone who took part behind the scenes during Menace Media and the Matzai.

Obes. Twisted Evil
THE Media Mad Menace Hatter.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:20 pm
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Obes
Unfettered

Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 329
Location: England

Awwww.. Lisa got to it first!

Well... I like my... format.. yeah... it works nicely..

*looks around shiftily and runs away*


Obes. Twisted Evil

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:21 pm
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