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[META] Player- moderators on an in-game board
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		[META] Player- moderators on an in-game board
An interesting question arises from the use of moderators of an in-game board who are players here. Rowan, who we all know and trust, has been recruited by a character "tucker" - who is a euphemism of the PMs -of the game Who Is Benjamin Stove. To me this raises a number of issues that are unnecessary distractions for the game, which hasn't generated much interest here yet.

1. I haven't spoken to Rowan about this so I don't know, but I am guessing that Tucker isn't paying her... I understand grassroots games and unfiction using unpaid volunteers, but for a well-funded commercial game to use free labor to moderate their boards just seems, not to be unkind, but honestly, a bit cheap and tacky.

2. How to explain that unfiction is out-of-game, when the in-game forum moderator, posts and plays the game here? It is difficult enough for newer players to understand that characters don't post here, or supposedly don't know, or aren't supposed to act as if they know, this forum exists. We have had questions in orbital colony about what characters can find out from reading these boards; I just don't see the benefit in confusing the matter further.

3. I know in the game CTW and Acheron, both grassroots efforts I believe, some players were BTS; in Acheron, to keep the game from imploding. I think those instances were based in necessity to staff the game. I don't think that is the case with this game. I foresee questions about Rowan's role,questions of her integrity and this forums integrity, none of which will benefit this community. At best, this will simply be a distraction.

Again, I am not sure why they don't just hire her, she can play and moderate this game on their boards and play everything else here. My view is that this arrangement is not an the optimal choice for the game or for the unfiction boards.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:24 am
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misuba
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 		Not the first time a commercial Intartrawn entity will have made such an arrangement with a "customer"/user, and not the last. I really think you have to leave this one to the player-moderator in question: does s/he feel s/he is getting some kind of reward for his/her time that justifies the amount and intensity of that time? If yes, then no issue.

The other questions are a bit harder. But not lots harder.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:19 am
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Pixiestix
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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 		I'm not sure it is really fair to use her participation in these forums, and her possible wanting to be the mod there, against her. To me, that is what it looks like you are doing - making her choice a "bad for the unfiction community" type thing. We {unfiction} are not the only community that plays ARGs - would you feel that same way if it was anyone else from Unfiction, how about from another community? I guess I can understand having the opinion that something is tacky - but without having the full story, I think that is a little unfair as well.

We don't know that Rowan is actually BTS, she was asked by a character to do this favor, yes? I know many people who would jump at the chance to do something, be a part of, even if it is possibly minor and not BTS - who knows what they will get from it in the end?

Simply put, if I was in Rowans shoes, since those forums are in-game, and ours are not, I would not mention Unfiction on those forums at all. As far as the game goes, unfiction does not exist in that reality. When players come here, they get a warning if they TRY to make it in-game. Forgive me, but don't we usually have a problem because PMs try to make unfiction in-game? I didn't know we had a similar problem with players, but I would think it would be a much easier thing to remedy than our aggressive "I am going to do what I want" PMs who fight despite the warnings that it is a no-no.

As for the use of the word distraction -whom is it distracting? Obviously the first answer is you, since you posted about it, but do you know that Rowan is distracted? Maybe this is just another level for her to play on.

If this IS a distraction for Rowan, or will bring about people who think the forums here need to be in-game, or will ruin the integrity of unfiction OR Rowan, I do not see how suddenly paying her for her job will change any of that - except that now she is not allowed to play here? Again, this goes on assumptions that she is BTS, and much more involved than possibly she is. I would hope, knowing Rowan's reputation more than I actually know her, than being Rowan she would stop playing if she got a peak behind the curtain.

I think first what needs to happen is, is your concern specific to the situation {Rowan & WIBS} or in general? If it is specific, I think this is probably something you should have spoken to Rowan about before posting. If it is general, well then... I guess it really does depend on a person to person basis what is going on, but for the most part, i still see no porblem without knowing the full story from that person {in this case Rowan}.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:28 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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 		Re: [META] Player- moderators on an in-game board
rose wrote:

3. I know in the game CTW and Acheron, both grassroots efforts I believe, some players were BTS; in Acheron, to keep the game from imploding. I think those instances were based in necessity to staff the game. I don't think that is the case with this game. I foresee questions about Rowan's role,questions of her integrity and this forums integrity, none of which will benefit this community. At best, this will simply be a distraction.
.


Speaking as one who did a little something for Acheron - the PM's made certain to not give me any information that would bias me in playing the game. No extra clues, no look at the story nothing. There have also been a few people who have done a puzzle or two for a game with the understanding that they "sit out" on the solving process of that puzzle.

Now as for "the use of moderators of an in-game board who are players here." How will that give her additional game information? How is it any differnt than being a moderator on the board here? UF has player moderators too. Perplexity has Bill, Anthrax101, BriEnigma, Giskard, Bagsbee, GuyP and Cassandra... Other games have had Varin, Catherwood, Addlepated, Scarpegrousse, Jamesi...

Ah, but the problem is not that she is a moderator, but that it is an in-game site? As long as the PM is not feeding her information to post to the in game site or UF I don't see why that should be a bar to playing the game. If anything it makes it more real... as the player moderator is also playing and posting information and speculation to the board rather than being some mysterious person who is never seen and never heard from. By not allowing a player to be a moderator somewhere else - doesn't it also break that fourth wall? I mean, would we prevent someone from being a moderator on a HALO or other console game board? Or over at Deaddrop? Or over at Immersion Unlimited?

I trust my fellow players to know when they have crossed the boarder from a simple BTS doing one job with no extra knowledge and having insider info that prevents them from posting to an OOG site. I don't think it is a mistake that one of the veteran players will make - especially after all the discussion we have had here over the years. They will know when they will have to step away from the player areas and limit their interaction on a game.

I trust Rowan will do the right thing, and have a blast doing it.

Edit
As for

Quote:
2. How to explain that unfiction is out-of-game, when the in-game forum moderator, posts and plays the game here? It is difficult enough for newer players to understand that characters don't post here, or supposedly don't know, or aren't supposed to act as if they know, this forum exists. We have had questions in orbital colony about what characters can find out from reading these boards; I just don't see the benefit in confusing the matter further.


That is specifically written into the TOS of this board, that you accept when signing up and posting. In game moderator is not the same thing as an in game character or PM. And newbies can be straightened out when they ask.

As for Orbital Colony - The characters don't know about this space, do not read this space, nor will they go into OOG player areas. *cough**cough*
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:58 am
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Ikkarus
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 		rose, dear, sometimes you think too much.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:14 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		heh - I trust Rowan completely. I had two points - they can pay her, so why not,.. and new players will be confused and the issue will distract from the game. I admit that I am being influenced by some of the issues and questions raised by newer players in Orbital, which are not these issues, but which reflect a bit of confusion. I suppose this is one of those wait and see things.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:30 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


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Ikkarus wrote:
rose, dear, sometimes you think too much.


Maybe so - but better to discuss things before they turn into flame wars. Wink
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:39 am
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ScarpeGrosse
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rose wrote:
heh - I trust Rowan completely. I had two points - they can pay her, so why not,.. and new players will be confused and the issue will distract from the game.


They (GMD Studios, in this instance) can pay her. Tucker (The character she's assisting) probably can't. In terms of game continuity, payment of forum moderators is moot. It's a stupid point.

Everyone always complains about not having enough player/character interaction. Well, here ya go. Not only do you get to interact with the character on the forums, but you have an experienced moderator making sure they don't turn into a really annoying piece of forum software deluged by idiots. Seems like a win/win to me. Add on the benefit of the PMs being able to focus more on the story than the management of the forums, and I don't see how it's a problem.

New players won't be confused. I'm sorry, but I just don't think the players are that dumb. If they're only playing on the in-game boards, they'll see that no moderator besides Tucker (the character) ever posts "new in-game" information. They can wander over to UF (through their trusty google search or through a chat) and see the very blatant post from Rowan that says "i'm not in-game, i'm not privy to any inside information, etc etc."

Geez. Lowest common denominator, I know, but I'm assuming most people are capable of reading. They had to get on the internet somehow and type in the URL...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:47 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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Quote:
It's a stupid point.


heh, guess I will resign as Rowan's agent Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:25 am
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Ehsan
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rose wrote:
heh, guess I will resign as Rowan's agent Wink


You can be my agent anytime. Call me.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:42 am
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rowan
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
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 		Re: [META] Player- moderators on an in-game board
Nothing like coming into chat and seeing that you've become the great bringer of meta debates. /me rolls up her sleeves and starts to answer.

rose wrote:
1. I haven't spoken to Rowan about this so I don't know, but I am guessing that Tucker isn't paying her... I understand grassroots games and unfiction using unpaid volunteers, but for a well-funded commercial game to use free labor to moderate their boards just seems, not to be unkind, but honestly, a bit cheap and tacky.

Nope, I'm not getting paid. I was asked by Tucker (the character via PM on the WIBS boards, not through some PuppetMaster proxy) to help moderate their boards. As this isn't anything I wouldn't be doing over here (moving and locking posts, gently nudging newbies) I accepted. I'll admit I didn't contact an admin over here about this because I didn't think it was going to be a problem as it was done in an ingame matter and I made full disclosure of the facts that were given to me (unlike in a previous game where players were contacted by the PuppetMasters directly and asked to sign papers which made things oh so messy). Perhaps I should have and I will take steps to rectify that matter.

I understand your point about me basically being used as slave labor, but the point is, if I was being paid, I do not believe that I would be able to continue playing this game here as technically I would be a paid employee of GMD and thus there would be a conflict of interest. As a paid employee, how could you trust that I was doing things for the betterment of the players and not for the game or what the PMs wanted me to do? As an unpaid player, I have absolutely no loyalities to GMD (beyond the fact I just like playing their games). My job as a moderator on the boards is to make life easier for the players, not necessarily for the PMs.

If I'm dumb enough to do this for free, that's my problem. It's not like I'm being duped that this is some grassroots game with no money. I accepted this with no promise of reward and no expectations to get one (although it doesn't mean I'm not holding out hope for that penguin). I was not asked to do anything other than help newcomers feel a little less confused. It just happens that one of the easiest ways to do that is to move posts around so they are less confusing. But if you'd feel more comfortable knowing that I got some payment, you can say that my compensation was not having to scream at my computer screen knowing that there are 3 threads talking about the same thing and I can't merge them. Seriously, once you become a moderator it sucks not having that ability to straighten up posts everywhere. Even a simple thing like having a scrolling url will make you reach for the edit button and start you cursing when you realize you dont have one.

Quote:
2. How to explain that unfiction is out-of-game, when the in-game forum moderator, posts and plays the game here? It is difficult enough for newer players to understand that characters don't post here, or supposedly don't know, or aren't supposed to act as if they know, this forum exists. We have had questions in orbital colony about what characters can find out from reading these boards; I just don't see the benefit in confusing the matter further.
I didn't know that problem had arose in this game yet. But I guess we can just handle it the same way we handle all of these other discussions, by repeating that in-game characters cannot read or post here (but that PMs being outside of the game can read the boards to adjust the game to us). I would hope my stating in no uncertain terms that I am just a player and not a character, nor behind the scenes, would satisfy any confusion of a new player. If a new player is confused, then I would do my personal best to unconfuse them.

I really don't see how this is all that much different than seeing your emails show up in an ingame characters inbox, or seeing your name repeated by an ingame character, or having your voice turn up on an answering machine tape. Is it because of the supposed power that I have to move and lock threads? Trust me, it isn't as much power as you'd think.

Quote:
3. I know in the game CTW and Acheron, both grassroots efforts I believe, some players were BTS; in Acheron, to keep the game from imploding. I think those instances were based in necessity to staff the game. I don't think that is the case with this game. I foresee questions about Rowan's role,questions of her integrity and this forums integrity, none of which will benefit this community. At best, this will simply be a distraction.
But I'm not BTS. If I were to become BTS, you would know it. For one thing, you'd never see me posting on the boards anymore. I've been reading the discussions about players going behind the scenes since the first week I've joined UF, and you can either trust me or not when I say I am not behind the scenes. Unless you consider having access to the oh so exiting moderator board on WIBS as being behind the scenes, but I think doomcrayon can verify that nothing is going on in there. There are 2 posts by Tucker in that hidden board, both of which are completely in character. No hidden messages, no hidden instructions. And if Tucker starts being all secretive and coy, you'll just have to trust that I'll slap him around for pulling that kind of crap. I really am one of those players that think all game information should be available to all players, regardless of their interaction level.

Quote:
Again, I am not sure why they don't just hire her, she can play and moderate this game on their boards and play everything else here. My view is that this arrangement is not an the optimal choice for the game or for the unfiction boards.
Quite honestly, I feel that if I was getting paid, I wouldnt be able to play, at least not on here. There would be a chance of something happening where I would have to choose who exactly I'm working for, the people who pay me or the people who trust me? And if I chose the former, how could anyone trust me on the boards again? I can now understand Steve's reasons for turning over ARGN. While I trust him completely, I can see how at some point he might have had to make a choice between the trust of 42 or ARGN. You can't have split loyalities and expect everyone to maintain their trust in you. As an unpaid player, you can bet that I will be doing my best to serve my fellow players, not the wishes of the PMs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:55 am
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scrappy wrote:
It's a stupid point.


And this is why we love Scraps. Seriously.

I have nothing else to contribute. (As usual.)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:42 pm
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addlepated
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 		Isn't the whole point of all ARGs, professional and grassroots, to get you to help them for free? All those tasks - decoding, searching, getting sweaty in graveyards, sneaking into cars and sealing cards, having to talk to clowns - people just do 'em for the glory and possible swag. Only a couple of games have offered monetary rewards.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:28 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		heh - since everyone seems to think that working for free for a company that has lots of money is a fine thing - I can see that I am wrong. What can I say, most people I know and work with think that working for an ad agency or a studio on a commercial project for nothing is not a great plan, but I can see that everyone here disagrees. Let's see how many other people think that I am making a stupid point...should we start a poll?

And by working I mean taking a position of responsibility that is based on your knowledge, experience and reputation as opposed to playing, where you can participate for free as your schedule and interest permits.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:16 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
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rose wrote:
And by working I mean taking a position of responsibility that is based on your knowledge, experience and reputation as opposed to playing, where you can participate for free as your schedule and interest permits.


Just to play devil's advocate here...
You don't want people to work for an advertising company for free. Fair enough. But each time you talk about a game to someone new, each time you try to recruit people to play AtoH, LCP, Bees, whatever, you're essentially working for that advertising company FOR FREE by giving them lipservice and providing that free "word of mouth" advertising that is so important for reaching a larger audience.

But no, it's the "taking a position of responsibility" that's a problem. So everyone who takes the time to write a guide or work on a wiki or a trail is effectively working for the company. For free. Everyone who moderates a game on UF or any other forum is working for the company. For free.

I don't moderate and admin this forum for any of the companies. I don't write guides for games for the companies that create them. I do it as a service to my community. You. Sure, in some sick way it is aiding the company, but that's not my purpose for participating in the manners I participate. I don't see how moderating a forum separate from this one, simply because it's hosted on an in-game site, is any different from what is already done. They're not profitting off of Rowan's participation there anymore than we profit off of her participation here. I don't remember the paragraph in the Good Citizen handbook that outlined the part where if you have experience in an area, you can no longer freely give that experience to an organization.

Essentially, this is Rowan's decision whether or not she participates, which she has clearly outlined above. I think it would be a great detriment to the community to penalize her for freely giving her time and effort to yet another ARG.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:33 pm
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