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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Patenting ARG
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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skilletaudio
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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 		Ladies and gents, the computer and IT industry has been suffering from this malady for years. The patent system is hopelessly broken, and everyone knows it.

For the most part, a lot of these seemingly ridiculous patents are being taken out in order to prevent someone from coming around the corner, declaring prior art, filing a patent and then suing the company for doing what they do.

ie, a lot of these are being filed for defensively, because it would not be the first, or the hundredth time that something seemingly global, like "rendering things in three dimensions" or "clicking a mouse button twice" were patented by some random company who then tried to take down Microsoft for a huge settlement on such spurious grounds.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:47 am
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joebrent
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Quote:
Ladies and gents, the computer and IT industry has been suffering from this malady for years. The patent system is hopelessly broken, and everyone knows it.

For the most part, a lot of these seemingly ridiculous patents are being taken out in order to prevent someone from coming around the corner, declaring prior art, filing a patent and then suing the company for doing what they do.


Yeah, me and my RIM Blackberry know what you mean...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:49 am
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SirQuady
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joebrent wrote:
I know a little bit about the concept of "intellectual property", not so much about actual patent law, but if it works the same way, then you can do whatever you want so long as you don't actually profit from the venture. Not-for-profits get around copyright laws all the time this way. I dunno -- there's some lawyers around this place, maybe they should look into it. I'd imagine we're ok, though.


Here's the problem: Many ARGs are for profit! Namely, all the professionally made ones! They are almost allways advertizing campaigns for various things: thus, they are trying to make a profit (off the thing they are advertising).

you are right though, there are lawyers around here, so here's a cry for help to those who know their law stuffs:

Help!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:47 am
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Mokey Fraggle
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 		I'm trying to ask a lawyer friend, but no clue when she'll get back to me. One thing, though (a question from my inexperience with these things): When something has so clearly been in use for such a long time, can you patent it? Wouldn't you need to suggest that it was your idea, and therefore that no one else has been doing it? Question

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:40 am
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Nos
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 		Damn. Already 'joined' (at least email wise) before readin this post. Stupid me.

Though, I will not be playing nor pimping this game.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:53 am
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Mokey Fraggle
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 		I'm not going to pass judgement until we get a clearer understanding of their intentions. Why don't we just email the company and ask?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:01 am
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GuyP
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Quote:
I know a little bit about the concept of "intellectual property", not so much about actual patent law, but if it works the same way, then you can do whatever you want so long as you don't actually profit from the venture. Not-for-profits get around copyright laws all the time this way.

Surely not - trading songs over P2P networks isn't "for profit", but it's still illegal, and I don't imagine charity websites can raid stock photography libraries and then not pay for the images. And if this were the case, then the row between pharmaceutical companies vs. people-not-wanting-other-people-to-die-of-AIDS would be a non-event.

Quote:
I'm trying to ask a lawyer friend, but no clue when she'll get back to me. One thing, though (a question from my inexperience with these things): When something has so clearly been in use for such a long time, can you patent it? Wouldn't you need to suggest that it was your idea, and therefore that no one else has been doing it?

Yes, you have to show that the idea is originally yours, and yours alone - it's called prior art. Having read the press release, I wasn't too sure about this angle - although it's obviously related to ARGs, I can see that they might spin it to sound terribly unique and original. However:

Quote:
In a fast-changing world, finding a single piece of prior art which discloses the same invention as that claimed in a patent is not the most likely scenario. What is far more likely to occur is that the prior art will be something similar but not identical to the patented invention. The patent statutes also provide for this situation—in a negative manner. Specifically, section 103 of the code provides that a patent may not be obtained "though the invention is not identically disclosed or described [in the prior art] if the differences between the subject matter sought to be patented and the prior art are such that the subject matter as a whole would have been obvious at the time the invention was made to a person having ordinary skill in the art." The test which is posed by this section is whether a worker of ordinary skill, knowing the prior art, would have found the patented invention obvious.

That is to say: given that you're familiar with ARGs, and aware that they've been tied in to games, films, and TV series, would the concept be an obvious development? From the uproar in this thread, I'd guess the answer is a hearty yes.

(Aside for lawyer types: Could you apply for a patent, have it granted, and then state that anyone is allowed to exploit the idea (a "Creative Commons patent", if you will)? It would seem unfair if companies could proactively patent ideas to prevent competition from others, but the "others" themselves couldn't do the same thing - although perhaps simply creating the prior art is enough, and a "free-for-all patent" would be needlessly underlining the status quo.)[/quote]

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:04 am
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addlepated
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Joined: 17 Aug 2003
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Mokey Fraggle wrote:
I'm not going to pass judgement until we get a clearer understanding of their intentions. Why don't we just email the company and ask?

Because it's more fun to handwring and speculate. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:22 am
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Slyfox
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Location: Manchester, UK

 		Would the patent be enforceable globally?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:42 am
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Ciaran_H
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Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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 		Since the first major ARG was The Beast, which you'll remember was done by Microsoft, I should think that they would probably want to be the ones to fight the patent if anybody would. Of course, I'm not saying we *shouldn't*. But if SA want to fight Microsoft, then I hope they know what they're doing.

The point about writing an email to Stranger Adventures is a good one. I'm just writing one up now.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:02 pm
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Mokey Fraggle
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Ciaran_H wrote:
The point about writing an email to Stranger Adventures is a good one. I'm just writing one up now.


Great! I'll look forward to their response! Very Happy

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:09 pm
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Ciaran_H
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Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: England, UK

 		This is the email I sent:

Quote:
To: infoSPLATstrangeradventures.com
Cc: joshSPLATfotoge.net
Subject: Your patent application, and Alternate Reality Gaming

Hello,

My name is Ciaran Hamilton, and I am a member of a community called Unfiction ( http://www.unfiction.com/ ). Unfiction, which has been established for a long time, is about a type of gaming that has been known as Alternate Reality Gaming for a few years now. These games are known as Alternate Reality Games, or ARGs.

In the press release for Stranger Adventures, it is noted that:

"Chris Tyler, founder and creator of Riddle Productions, LLC and Stranger Adventures, has filed the patent applications integral to providing the series' cross-media method of storytelling."

This cross-media method of storytelling is not new - in fact, it is what ARGs are all about. Even if you were to discount the volunteer efforts (some of which are very good indeed), it has been used commercially - the earliest example being the one that basically formed the whole genre into being, which was a game devised as marketing for the movie "A.I." The game was developed by Microsoft, and is well-known in the ARG community as "The Beast".

Since "The Beast", there have been other ARGs which have been devised commercially. These include ilovebees.com (a marketing ARG for Halo 2) and Majestic (created by Electronic Arts). In addition, at least two companies have made ARGs almost their entire business:

* GMD Studios ( http://www.gmdstudios.com/ ), who are currently running an ARG called "Who Is Benjamin Stove?" ( http://www.whoisbenjaminstove.com/ ) and have run some very successful ARGs in the past, including "The Art of the Heist", which was sponsored by Audi and prominently featured the Audi A3.

* VirtuQuest ( http://www.virtuquest.com/ ), who specialise in corporate ARGs.

Applying for a patent means that you probably believe that you invented this. The purpose of this email is to show that you did not, and that there are many examples of prior art. This is not a threat; merely a helpful email. If by some chance you win the patent, however, we will fight it.

I have posted this email to Unfiction here: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14085 (my email is on page 2 of that thread). If you would like to respond in the thread, it would be appreciated.

Thank you for your attention.

- Ciaran.


The To address is the address listed for the main Contact link on the site, and The Cc was included as that email address is listed in the whois for the site.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:20 pm
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imbriModerator
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
SirQuady wrote:
Here's the problem: Many ARGs are for profit! Namely, all the professionally made ones! They are almost allways advertizing campaigns for various things: thus, they are trying to make a profit (off the thing they are advertising).


That is not the problem, as I see it. At least not as far as ARG players at unfiction are concerned. The companies that make games for profit also have access to attorneys to help them not infringe upon any rights. The problem is the little guy that does not have that luxury. Now, when one is not profitting on the venture, I can't imagine the PMs getting anything more than a cease & desist. Fortunately, the independent PM has a great deal of flexibility (more so than the for profit guys that have to please their clients as well as their players) and can make the changes necessary to avoid having to actually end the game.

Ciaran's Letter wrote:

"Chris Tyler, founder and creator of Riddle Productions, LLC and Stranger Adventures, has filed the patent applications integral to providing the series' cross-media method of storytelling."

This cross-media method of storytelling is not new - in fact, it is what ARGs are all about. Even if you were to discount the volunteer efforts (some of which are very good indeed), it has been used commercially - the earliest example being the one that basically formed the whole genre into being, which was a game devised as marketing for the movie "A.I." The game was developed by Microsoft, and is well-known in the ARG community as "The Beast".

Applying for a patent means that you probably believe that you invented this. The purpose of this email is to show that you did not, and that there are many examples of prior art. This is not a threat; merely a helpful email. If by some chance you win the patent, however, we will fight it.


Now I applaud someone actually sending a letter in order to get additional information so that we can look at this issue with knowledge instead of emotion, but I must point out that this was a very emotionally driven letter.

Even with the quote from the press release, it seems as if some dangerous assumptions were made. According to the press release, they "patent applications integral to providing the series' cross-media method of storytelling." Read that sentence again. No where does it say that they filed a patent on alternate reality gaming. It does say that they filed multiple applications (the plural s) integral to providing their (the series') product (cross-media method of story telling experience). For all we know, the applications could have been for a specific chat application or whatever that will never ever effect a single grassroots designer.

Furthermore, ARGs are not the only type of cross-media storytelling and the Beast is not the earliest example (though it is widely credited as the first ARG). We are looking at this with our own interests, and that is fine, but we aren't the only guys out there and I think it would be good for us to remember that.

Now, please, I mentioned some of these thoughts in various chats yesterday. They were rarely well recieved and often misunderstood. I am not trying to put down anyone who is concerned and I do believe that we should be vigilant. However, I also think that we need to keep our occasional propensity for a mob mentality in check. We need to look at this honestly and without spreading rumors, suspicisions, and half-truths. Those will only obstruct what we all really want to know - just how will this effect us, if at all. Once we understand that, we can move forward with confidence and understanding. Until then, we're just getting ourselves in all worked up with nowhere to get rid of the energy.

And, to Ciaran, I hope that you understand the intent behind my criticism of your letter. It was just easier to hit the most recent example of the assumption that they were patenting ARGs. I do applaud you for actually writing the letter and attempting to get some valid information. It's more than a lot of us have done, myself included. Thanks!

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:33 pm
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SirQuady
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Joined: 15 Jan 2006
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imbri wrote:

And, to Ciaran, I hope that you understand the intent behind my criticism of your letter. It was just easier to hit the most recent example of the assumption that they were patenting ARGs. I do applaud you for actually writing the letter and attempting to get some valid information. It's more than a lot of us have done, myself included. Thanks!


I agree: xheers for Ciaran!*


*xheers = cheers
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There once was a [person] from [place]
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When [event] would occur,
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:49 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Ciaran_H wrote:
This is the email I sent:
...
The To address is the address listed for the main Contact link on the site, and The Cc was included as that email address is listed in the whois for the site.

I think those contacts are for the website, not the company.
Quote:
Chris Tyler, founder and creator of Riddle Productions, LLC and Stranger Adventures, has filed the patent applications integral to providing the series' cross-media method of storytelling.
I think your letter should be addressed to this Chris Tyler person, if indeed he is the one seeking the patent.
(whoops, came back later to add) I see you did mention that line in the body of your mail. Might as well forward it to something like info-at-riddleproductions.com as well, with "Attention: Chris Tyler" in the subject line.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:01 pm
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