unforum

[CoolCats712]

Are there any similarities between this and Pietro Salk's murder? I recall seeing something somewhere about how neurosuppressants are like twenty years of neurdegenerative disease in five hours (16 hours?), but can't seem to find it again. I agree that any Ceretin in Cymbalisty's system could be certified fresh red herring.
But if it wasn't a Ceretin mickey, then he had to have been assaulted, meaning defensive wounds and significantly more cleanup. Unless it was someone he knew... as the last person to report seeing Cymbalisty alive, it looks like Jason may be suspect No. 1.

But like Duckie and Uhtoff said, the body for all appearances was putrefied when it was found, so it makes the most sense that he'd been dead for a day or two by the time he was found. But if this is the case and the reports have been doctored, why leave so much contradictory evidence? Was the fixer just clueless about pathology? The concentrated effort to keep any of this from entering civilian hands suggests a police cover-up. 3P infiltration?

Oof. My brain hurts.

[erekose]

I have a theory, most probably wrong, but still...

I think that issac's death might not be the result of the ceratin overdose, but of the complications arising from the 'unknown agent' that was apparently in his system at the same time.
Someone (perhaps the cleaners?) could have arranged for Issacs supply of ceretin to disappear, meaning that he would suffer withdrawal symptoms and take a higher than usual dose. Then, by placing the agent either in the coffee cup or by using some sort of delivery method (perhaps resulting in the abrasion) they cause the complications that result in issac's death. Think,as he leaves the library he feels a sharp sting on his cheek, which he ignores as an insect bite, little knowing that it was a micro-crossbow launched hypospray capsule...
Sounds like the sort of job the third power would do.

[Guin]

[duckiemonster]

"Localized synaptic liquefactive necrosis" is not something that you're likely to see in a medical student's core syllabus...

...in this case, the most likely cause is the ceretin; he's stuffed full of it. But I wouldn't rule out other nerve agents/poisons. The report doesn't sound like there's been a thorough examination of all the nice hidden injection sites (the ones that CSI like; back of the neck, under the nails, between the toes, in the armpits, in the groin folds) so anything's a possibility.

As in anything, there's a list of 'differential diagnoses' that you can go down. Was it an infectious agent? Is it some sort of degenerative process that's been creeping up on him for a while (the coroner says not)? Was there some trauma involved? To be honest, he could have been killed by 101 different things, agents, proceses, and we're probably not ever going to know. Working on the blindingly obvious, I'd say it was the ceretin.

I'm going to email Cogniva and see if they can give me some info on the biochemical workings of Ceretin. Might be useful.

---------------------------------
GUIN: Not really. We know that the lungs were normal... the paper is talking about how people who have had strokes are more likely to get a chest infection

[Small Geezer]

First I just need to say.

*applauds duckiemonster for taking the time to detail all of the information in lamens terms for the rest of us non medics* Nice job, thanks.

Second, that was fun, even though the bleeping site kept locking up on me!

Now on to the death. There seems to be a small amount of contradiction out there, unsurprsingly with all that info to read through. One hypothesis is that the coffee cup was a suicide prop, but there was very little contents wise in his stomach, I can't think of why an adult male would not eat for 12 hours without having something in his system playing havoc with his normal metabolic pathways.

We *know* he was murdered and we *know* someone has made a really bad job in covering this up, which is why Kurt is a no no in my mind. He would have done a better job and tied up the loose ends. The thing we need to suss out or at least know in which direction to move people is who and what with?

We think we have the motive, in the form of Graniers diary, that has to be a high priority - deciphering the last entry. Anyone emailed Violet or Anna about that yet?

[kizandtango]

hey,some1 on IRC said cymb's key had bin hacked. i dnt remember this,cn sum1 comfirm it?
Also, if it was the drug that killed him, then one of two things would have happened. If he started feeling ill suddenly, he would have got up, staggerd around tryin to get out the door and get help before collapsing on the floor. BUT if it came on slowly and made him drowsy first, then he would have layed down on his desk thinkin he was just tired. If he had done this, then there would be no abbrasion on his cheek because he layed down gently instead of landing hard on it. Am i missin something or does that seem logical to you?
Maybe someone should mail cognivia and ask for side effects and symptoms of overdose?

[Uhtoff]

I think that 'localised synaptic liquefactive necrosis' is like 'synaptic fusing', just a term they are using that means that Ceretin killed him or at least Ceretin worked it's special magic in his brain. I don't think there's anything more to be read into it than that.

Back to the time of death thing, the 'external examination' would have been at the time of the PM as the coroner wouldn't have stripped the body at the scene of the crime. The finding are consistent with not refridgerating the body between that point and the PM, but how likely is that really? (I'm awake now ) I have lost count of the number of bodies I have seen, and I have never seen abdominal distention as they have always been refridgerated or embalmed. If PXC are technologically advanced of us then it seems unlikely they wouldn't preserve the body's condition before the PM, or if they had no facility for that they would have done the PM earlier. If he did die >48 hours before his body was found then not only does it mean that Jason and Miranda must be lying, but that there was a good reason to keep Isaac's death hidden for that time, good enough to risk the coroner exposing them (or at least good enough that they could risk bribing/having the coroner in their pocket).

I'll ask a pathologist

[Uhtoff]

Oh, just so I'm sure. It's just Anna and Kurt that know we have access to these police files isn't it?

[sledgecallier]

[psyche]

I must be missing something - I don't understand why people think the timing is wrong. I thought it went like this: Cymbalisty arrived home from work on the Friday and drank a big cup of ceretin coffee, then promptly passed out at his desk. He was unconscious until he died 16 hours later, on Saturday lunch time. Then the police turned up and he was autopsied two days later, on the Monday.

Am I missing something? Is it just this abdominal distention that's not right? If so, is there any way that could have been caused by what poisoned him?

[quote="chimera245"]B) The convenience of the whole Ceretin in Coffee scenario, with no other stomach contents (despite at 16-24 hour time to take effect)

But if he'd been unconscious for 16 hrs after drinking the ceretin, then his stomach *would* be empty, assuming he hadn't yet had his dinner that evening.

[Mikeyj]

Looking at MO's of our previous murders...The security guard (I've forgotten her name...terrible!), Pietro and the advisor, this one seems to have been done by someone different to me.

It's most different to the advisor's death (erm...no blood up the walls), there're no signs of a struggle, so perhaps he knew the murderer. There doesn't seem to have been a deliberate effort to cause suffering (as in the case of Pietro and the Advisor, whom I presume were both V as he's the sadist), although how quick is a massive ceretin overdose?

But anyway...not V and someone he knows are my thoughts at present.

[number9dream]

[locqust]

Typical couldnt get back on the police site and I miss all the fun
*Knew I should of cancelled D&D last night....*

Well done guys sounded a blast and thank god for medical professionals on here! No way I would of worked all this out alone!

So where does this leave us?

[kizandtango]

jst thought id put this in. Mail from cognivia bout ceretin side effects.


Thank you for your interest in Ceretin. Ceretin is the market's leading
wide-spectrum cognitive enhancer and offers significant advances over
previous generations and competing products. However, as with all cognitive
enhancers, it does have mild side effects. These include possible
disorientation, mild synaesthesia, restlessness and agitation. For more
information, please contact your doctor.

Ceretin Customer Support, Cognivia

Also got a mail from the CHEAP CERETIN company but:

Dear Customer,

THIS EMAIL HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN BY THE COGNIVIA LEGAL DEPARTMENT AND PERPLEX CITY

'cheapceretin.com' is selling illegal and dangerous fakes of the Ceretin
cognitive enhancer drug and we are in the process of closing down their bank and
website operations. Please do not attempt to make any transactions with
'cheapceretin.com' or any other similar sites.

Alexandra Treater
Cognivia.com




Im gettin lost here (not suprising rly) what are jason and miranda lying bout? n how do we know they r lying? have found it hard to keep up cuz im stil in hosp without much net access. (apart from when i steal access when no ones looking) lil simplification would be kewl if ya can please!

[Weefz]