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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
The issue of imploding games
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		ARG as a genre is a growing entity. It will evolve. Game play will evolve.
Unfiction is a great community for sharing resources, ideas, comments, spec, and assistence in puzzle solving. The purpose is a place outside of the game world where members can be open about "This *is* a game" whereas "ingame forums" are for TINAG and members are part of the same world as the characters - much like ingame chats with characters.

UF will continue to evolve along with the genre, but can still stay true to the original purpose - a place to discuss The Game without upsetting the characters. A place for the PM to lurk and monitor game play - without interference and without making any allusions *in game* to something posted in UF unless a player specifically contacts a character with that information (and the PM is free to ignore as happened in CTW).

As more and more folks waunder in to our community, we have more storming before the norming. It's tough being new to the group (I remember when I was new and worried about stepping on the wrong toes). Just like any group formation, UF will go through some difficult times. But SB et al have always been consistent about UF being out-of-game, and that should continue. With consistent enforcement.

Bill adjusted deaddrop.us as a forum for aspiring PMs. We should direct grassroots folks over there for open discussion and help. And if a game wants it's characters to have interactions with players, they can create *in game* forums (I remember Search 4E had one) or character blogs.

Now, bring on CTW2!!!! (I should be able to play this one - konashark is leaving the country at the end of April).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:41 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Varin wrote:
Just one site had 500+ registered, which was a good amount to handle.


You know, I think I recall Dave saying somewhere before the game started that if he had 100 or so people registered for Chasing the Wish (in 2002), he would feel successfull and was surprised at the amount of people who signed up due to a few game magazine articles.

As for as OC was concerned we would have been happy with a couple dozen active players. That we got as many people to register before the game began and continued to sign up as the gma prgressed really surprised us.

Game implosions will happen. The only thing that we as individuals have control over is our own response, and that goes for both sides of the curtain. PM's should be gracious enough to say "I'm sorry this isn't going to work out" and leave it at that. There is no need to explain "I didn't have enough time, it was the players fault, it was the ARG reviewers fault, I got my hand slapped for breaking the TOS of my hosting ISP/another OOG forum" which really comes across as "sour grapes" to players.


Alternately a PM could tell the players that he is going to be out of contact for some time - Acheron did and a afew of the players clocked into the chat room just to chew the fat for a while (over a month) as the PMs were reconfiguring the game, bringing new people up to speed or whatever else needed to be done to finish a game. The one thing that taught me (as the future PM I was to become) was that Players will wait. They will be excited and cry for the game to start, but it is far better to have them cry about the game not starting than it is for them to cry about how unprepared/inconsistent with updates the PM seems to be.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:03 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		Summary
I am not sure where this thread is going anymore. Let me summarize my ideas and then let it go at that:

1. I suggested that we come up with some ideas to help solve the issue of game implosion. My suggestion of a formalized email was rejected for both practical and theoretical potential issues. Oddly, no one imagined good things could come from opening these commnications, which is something I didn't expect.

I admit I was shocked to discover that this board is only for players - I thought it was for the entire ARG community, which is why we had a PM guide and those chats that imbri is kind enough to do. Now I know better.

My conclusion is that contacting PMs in a way that opens communication and that explains the resources of this board accurately will be helpful. I also conclude that it is not necessary for a board official to do this, any player who wishes to make an informal communication with PMs can do so. I intend to move this discussion to a forum that is welcoming to PMs, which I understand to be Deaddrop as well as the IGDA ARG SIG.

Just for the record, I know that people here communicate with PMs in OOG conversations when they feel it is necessary. So the idea that no one would have an OOG conversation with PMs is, to me, spurious and a bit dishonest.


2. I pointed out, in a pessimistic mode, that many people who play ARGs are choosing not to join this community. Different reasons exist for this. but I think that is a factual reality that we can not ignore. Of all those reasons, the one that bothers me the most is that many people simply don't feel welcomed. It is not that they are intimidated, the perception they have, which is based on what they see, is that new people aren't welcomed. This is not the idea of the forum, at least when I joined here it wasn't. Again, I don't know if people are willing to say, "why is it that some people may not feel welcomed" and then "what can we do to change that."

And with that summary, I leave this thread in the capable hands of others. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:41 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

 		Re: Summary
rose wrote:
Just for the record, I know that people here communicate with PMs in OOG conversations when they feel it is necessary. So the idea that no one would have an OOG conversation with PMs is, to me, spurious and a bit dishonest.


I fail to see where anyone in this thread suggested that "no one would have an OOG conversation with PMs" especially if it were necessary. Obviously it has happened and will continue to happen, or we wouldn't have the precedent of players ending up BTS as HitsHerMark did in AotH, as numerous players have in PXC, and, as I understand it, as players did in CTW. There's nothing wrong with that (or any other individual OOG conversation with PMs during a game) if both parties are amenable.

The point I see numerous people trying to make is that no one should have to engage in such communication if they don't want to. I fail to see how such a position could be characterized as either "spurious" or "dishonest."
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:33 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 		Re: Summary
rose wrote:
I am not sure where this thread is going anymore. Let me summarize my ideas and then let it go at that:

1. I suggested that we come up with some ideas to help solve the issue of game implosion. My suggestion of a formalized email was rejected for both practical and theoretical potential issues. Oddly, no one imagined good things could come from opening these commnications, which is something I didn't expect.


I guess what most of us are saying is that having to specify someone (i.e. and "official person from UF") to contact PM's and say "Hi we are here!" Is what is sticing on people's craws. OK, my craw. Note: I am not an "official" anything. I work full time as do many people here. To ask busy people to take on another task in addition to the one they do out of love of the games, raises the defensive shields. Rose, if you (or anyone else for that matter) want to contact the PM's as a player, and show them some of the forums that are set up for ARGs (and I include Immersion Unlimited, Deaddrop, Varin, and ARGN as well as other associated places) then go ahead and do it. But to ask that we develop a "formalized" er... form letter for such an introduction seems a bit ... harsh to me. What is wrong with going to PMs who may or may not know about UF.I suspect that commercial ventures have done their homework and know there is a built in audience through ARGN affliates - remember for ILB Jamesi got a personalized invitation which they knew would be shared with ARGN and UF and from there to other boards as many of us visit more than one Forum.

If I were to approach a PM I would send a friendly letter in my own words along the lines of "Hey there are a group of us collaborating on your problem over here (UF, IU, Varin, etc.) and look forward to meeting you some time."

At that point I would assume that a person is intelligent enough to read the TOS for themselves and not have me point it out - especially since there are LARGE prominent links to that effect on the top of the forum.

Quote:

I admit I was shocked to discover that this board is only for players - I thought it was for the entire ARG community, which is why we had a PM guide and those chats that imbri is kind enough to do. Now I know better.


While Space has been kind enough to allow PMs some space to discuss issues, the forum was started as a player resource from what I have gleaned of its history.

Quote:

My conclusion is that contacting PMs in a way that opens communication and that explains the resources of this board accurately will be helpful. I also conclude that it is not necessary for a board official to do this, any player who wishes to make an informal communication with PMs can do so. I intend to move this discussion to a forum that is welcoming to PMs, which I understand to be Deaddrop as well as the IGDA ARG SIG.


Cool.

Quote:

Just for the record, I know that people here communicate with PMs in OOG conversations when they feel it is necessary. So the idea that no one would have an OOG conversation with PMs is, to me, spurious and a bit dishonest.


Ack... ok bit of miscommunication here. While there are some players who don't care if they know the PM or not, some players prefer to not have that information, even hinted at in their presence. At one point it was the majority of players, but I think that has shifted over the last couple of years, probably starting about the time the fanboys over at HALO discovered this board.

Quote:

2. I pointed out, in a pessimistic mode, that many people who play ARGs are choosing not to join this community. Different reasons exist for this. but I think that is a factual reality that we can not ignore. Of all those reasons, the one that bothers me the most is that many people simply don't feel welcomed. It is not that they are intimidated, the perception they have, which is based on what they see, is that new people aren't welcomed. This is not the idea of the forum, at least when I joined here it wasn't.


In all honsety I think it is because of a defensive reaction. At least it was a defensive reaction on my part when the HALO crowd came in and swamped the board. It was difficult to try and keep a happy face when they didn't bother to read what had been discussed previously and basically ignored the plea to use the search function. I quickly lost interest in the game when the signal to noise ration grew disprotortionately large for the noise. It made me grouchy to have to stop playing, not because the game was bad, but because my comments got lost.

UF is not the usual fan forum where peopole stand around gushing over this now game or that new game. I'm an old dog, I don't have the tolerance I had when I was younger.

I would like to think that ARGs have enough room for many forums. I don't see why it should be a requirement that players feel they HAVE to play at UF if they would prefer to play elsewhere.



Quote:
Again, I don't know if people are willing to say, "why is it that some people may not feel welcomed" and then "what can we do to change that."

And with that summary, I leave this thread in the capable hands of others. Very Happy

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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:33 am
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Mikeyj
Unfictologist


Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: London

 		Re: Summary
rose wrote:
Again, I don't know if people are willing to say, "why is it that some people may not feel welcomed" and then "what can we do to change that."


This is something I feel quite strongly about. I don't think there are a large number of reasons why people don't feel welcomed, but I also think they are part of the culture, and therefore difficult to change.

Wikis and guides are key to help get into games which, by and large, have already started when you come across them (I have absolute respect for those that come into Perplex City now; the back catalogue is vast). It's rare to come in at the very start. I don't think this is a problem at all. There's a long history of excellent guides.

Something I do think is a problem is the attitude of current players. Responses to stupid questions are frequently heavy-handed, smug and superior (not necessarily deliberately). I could link to examples. In all cases all that's needed is "this has been covered before here" together with link, as per the trouting guidelines. Personally rather than trout, which requires anyone new to look up what it means (they now have two things to look up rather than one and there is an extra bit of local protocol to digest) it's better to explain without its use. I see a trout as better used as short-hand with someone you now has been round a bit (...erm?) and knows what it means.

If you have issues with the way someone writes or any grievance of a personal nature then this should be dealt with via a PM rather than causing maximum embarassment with a lengthy dissection (again I could link to examples) that guarantees that they won't be coming back. This also goes for IRC, which (in the case of PXC...showing my bias again!) is logged and searchable.

A forum where you post using a nick is anonymising and as such I think there is a tendency to forget that there are individuals with a wide range of ages and abilities behind them. Many people are erudite and intelligent and their posts are easily understood and generally relevant. Many people can't express themselves as well; this doesn't mean they have less right to have their opinions heard.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:19 am
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seamount
Greenhorn

Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 3

 		I dont think the issue of game implosion can be fixed without leaving a mark on the freedom of creating games. A sure-guide manual will probably destroy the best things about these games, which is its potential and possibility. There are enough resources and texts for gamemakers to do their research even though I guess it doesnt really matter how much research you undertake.. it wont prepare you to adapt to a collective mind disecting your game, and it wont prepare you for the incredible amount of work. What my point is, if there is one, i think gamemakers need to ability to think on their feet quickly and surely for their game to succeed in anyway. I think this is more important than all the resources available on these forums. Thats just my opinion, and its not often worth much.



ok, this is possibly another thread all together but this is the reason i felt the urge to post my first message. The idea of people not feeling welcomed here is something which would be nice to address in some way, however minor it may be. I do not think it is completely because they are intimidated by eloquence or ambarrassed by smirk remarks to their posts. Personally, i think it is the stench of elitist snobbery floating around. I dont think this is the intention of these forums. Just from my limited experience, i have spoken to many people who do not use unforums for this reason alone. The "attitude" if you may. Many probably equals few. Its the wording and ego stroking. Maybe it is deserved, i do not know. Thats what Ive heard anyway. rumours, probably nothing more. Those are my 2 cents. thank you for reading.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:27 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		Hi seamount. Welcome to unfiction. Very Happy

Quote:
I dont think the issue of game implosion can be fixed without leaving a mark on the freedom of creating games


This is one of many good points raised in this thread. My thought, which has been formed in response to some of the posts in this thread, is that a player, as the idea of a board "official" doing this is clearly not welcomed could at least send PMs a courtesy welcome sort of email - which could possibly help them avoid some eggregious errors and point them to resources here and on other forums which they may not be aware of.

Quote:
Personally, i think it is the stench of elitist snobbery floating around.
I think this is probably correct, but it is a difficult issue to address without examining some of the specifics that give rise to this "stench."

Two more things: one person suggested that I need to care less, which is very wise advice. There are a number of reasons that this community matters to me, but I understand the sentiment of not caring so much.

Another person said that I tend to come across as "incredibly condescending" which is not my intention. I know that not everyone feels that way, but I will try to figure out a better way to communicate so that people can focus on the substance and not react to what they perceive is the tone.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:00 am
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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rose wrote:
I will try to figure out a better way to communicate so that people can focus on the substance and not react to what they perceive is the tone.


Tone notwithstanding, I think it's obvious that most of the posters in this thread understood the substance of your post quite clearly.

And disagreed.

I think, insofar as any uninimity of opinion can be gleaned from the thread, the collective message was pretty clear: most of the posters in this thread were not comfortable with the idea.

rose wrote:
My thought, which has been formed in response to some of the posts in this thread, is that a player, as the idea of a board "official" doing this is clearly not welcomed could at least send PMs a courtesy welcome sort of email - which could possibly help them avoid some eggregious errors and point them to resources here and on other forums which they may not be aware of.


If you and other players want to do so, I certainly have no objection, so long as the message comes from those players as individuals, and not UF at large.

Again, I think the general response to your suggestion, insofar as it can be determined, was discomfort with the idea of an email to all PMs purporting to come from the UF community in general.

That is a reaction I share. I am a member of this community, and any email or message from "Unfiction" in some sense represents me as well as every other regular poster here. I am not comfortable with the idea of an advisory email to all PMs, and therefore I wouldn't want my name signed to it, even by implication.

That said, if you want to send emails to PMs as yourself, as an individual player, obviously that's your business.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:17 pm
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seamount
Greenhorn

Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 3

 		hi again rose. thank you for the welcome. i understand what you are saying. i understand that everyone wants these forums to be for gamers. I cant imagine that pms dont already know UF inside out. Personally I have never found anything useful here, but maybe im not looking hard enough. I just really really dont think a courtesy email will have any bearing on an arg. if its an encouraging gesture.. then i cant imagine a mailing template to be.

I think encouragment through emails by the players of the game will be more useful than any advise or mail templates. its personal and it is from someone who is actually playing your game. From my limited experience, a couple of these kept me going for a few days with smile. it doesnt take much to encourage someone who is crazy enough to undertake an arg project for absolutely no money. if someone where to tell me "look, this game is going to be 12 hours a day.. every day...", i would probably think.. "look... old man... mind your own business, you worry about your little bowel problem.. and ill do my arg." then it was. i thats just my opinion.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:41 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
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seamount wrote:
if someone where to tell me "look, this game is going to be 12 hours a day.. every day..."...


12??? Oh, You just don't want to scare the potential PMs do ya... Wink Wink

He's kidding about the 12 hours really... It's more like, 12 hours, plus whatever time you can steal from work, family, sleep...
Very Happy Mr. Green

Where is Sunny and Pastabagel when we need them???
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:34 pm
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GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
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Quote:
I think this is probably correct, but it is a difficult issue to address without examining some of the specifics that give rise to this "stench."


I'd be glad to hear specifics about this "elitism", as I don't think UF is elitist at all. I acknowledge that there's a "certain group of people" (see previous contributors to this thread, I guess!) who have fairly set views about ARGs, and tend to value quality and innovation in games and community standards over expansion and unqualified tolerance. I'd admit I'm one of them, as we're being candid. But I think it's totally unjustified to characterise it as an "elite", because I think that suggests these views somehow influence UF, which simply isn't the case. Even people who have direct control over UF, like the admins, never editorialise the forums based on their personal opinions. They simply uphold the rules and reflect the wishes of the players, just as it should be.

I think "snobbery" is closer to the mark, admittedly using the most undiplomatic language at your disposal. There's simply a divide of opinion, and some people would rather maintain the status quo even if it's at the expense of growing as quickly as would otherwise be possible. I'm not sure what you mean by "wording" and "ego-stroking", though...

As MikeyJ was saying, It's something that comes up more and more often in the Perplex City forums, which consistently sees new members joining even at this stage. There's a level of unavoidable "elitism" in the sense that we already know going on and already know each other, but that can't be avoided even though I'm sure it makes a few people hesitant to contribute. The number of newcomers joining despite the "vast backcatalogue" is certainly encouraging, in my opinion. I also agree that the real balance to strike is between upholding the existing standards of the community - of decent manners, and reasonable articulacy - while still making it UF a welcoming place for new players who might not quite "get it" at first. In general, I'm happy to find that it's a self-correcting process, and while I have views on where to draw the line, the community in general is much better at reaching that point organically than a moderator making a pronouncement from on high.

Ultimately, I believe that the traditions of UF are well worth sticking up for. A lot of people - newbies included! - comment that it's a pretty refreshing change from other forums on the interweb. That said, we should always be careful to be welcoming and encouraging to new members. Like seamount and Mikeyj both suggested, I think it's more to do with "tone" than the message itself, and there's rarely, if ever, any need to be anything other than superfriendly.

I think it's very important, in banding about such accusations of "elitism", to remember that. I might take a certain line in meta discussions (like my fairly unsympathetic attitude to utterly unprepared PMs) but I generally try pretty hard to be nice and genial with every player I come across. And I think that goes for a lot of other people on UF, too, no matter how strident their views in discussions like these.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:12 am
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Gupfee
Site Admin


Joined: 22 Sep 2002
Posts: 817
Location: Massachusetts

 		To sum up:

Implosions--BAD!

Being nice--GOOD!

Don't implode! Be nice! Don't drink soap!

Repeat! Repeat!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 am
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GuyP
Unfettered


Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 584
Location: London, UK

 		Well, yes, that's another way of putting it Smile

PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:41 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
GuyP wrote:
I think it's more to do with "tone" than the message itself, and there's rarely, if ever, any need to be anything other than superfriendly.


Unfortunately you can't see the body language or tone of voice in the written word, and those of us who have been around a bit sometimes use phrases that "we" know are mean in a "poke fun" way, but that new people may not recognize as such.

Having been a member on other hobby forums, the "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION" is a refrain ALL of them use.

Going back to the original subject...

I don't see any problem with individual players sending personal e-mail/letters to the PMs and saying that a group of players are discussing their game there, but I don't see a need for it to be a"official" community backed & discussed form letter.

Besides, UF we also have Immersion Unlimited.com, Deaddrop.us, Varin.org.

All these sites have various things going for them, and really there is no reason for the "community" to consist of just one forum.

I really think that the corporate mantra on the commercial games is "know your audience" so they should be aware of at least some of those sites and the ARG community i.e. on ILB 42 sent the bottle of honey to a member of the community they were certain would bring the game to the attention of the ARG community.

Part of the problem I see in the form letter method - if there isn't a specific individual (or class of individual) then the PMs will get swamped with a dozen/hundred e-mails all saying the same thing and basically leaving a very negative impression of the community. I don't want to smakc the PMs over the head. Most PMs do follow the forum rules, and the few who are new to the community usually just need a gentle word and they don't make the same mistake again.

The few who are repeat offenders are trolls who should be banned, for being a troll - not because of any game related issue. Every community has trolls, UF being a small self policing community, just has a lot fewer of them so they stick out like... things that stick out.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:14 pm
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