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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
The issue of imploding games
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Dionysus
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Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 612
Location: Philadelphia Area

 		I will agree with one thing said. We have been really harsh open the recent imploding games, especially Retana Isle.

Too harsh.

However, we get annoyed because we get tired of PMs ignoring simple points made here time and time again. For me, I'm not even TALKING about posting on UF and such...

RULE #1: YOU CAN NOT RUN AN ARG BY YOURSELF

No one can. This lesson has been made abundantly clear over and over again by hundred of examples. *THIS* mistake is the one that pisses me off time and time again. No matter how much time you THINK you have, unless you are a isolated hermit never leaving his home who is independently wealthy.. It's not enough. Even then it may not be enough.

This has been repeated so many times, that yes, we get angry with people who make them. It's like getting angry with a drunk driver who has an accident. There are thousands examples of how driving drunk will cause an accident. Plenty of warnings not to. So when someone drives drunk anyway, your damn right we're pissed.

Whew.

Anyway, I really really don't like the form letter idea. I don't like violating the curtain. I will NEVER send an email with a direct message to a PM, because I value my curtain. Many PMs do too.

seamount,

First welcome to Unfiction!

Second, please don't interpret what I'm about to say as a personal attack, I'm feeling the need to respond to your comments.

Quote:
Personally I have never found anything useful here, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough


Depends on how you define useful. I think my statement above is useful and if you've read even ONE game implosion thread you'll see it mention. As well as the time commitment. There was the Orbital Colony chat and forums.. which tell you ALOT about the ARG creation process. Now I shall dive into the PM forum, which I never do because I don't like to.. for five mintues to find anything I would call useful. Here, here, here, HERE!

That's in five minutes. There's also a lot of advice here in the META forums.

What do you see as useful? Maybe our definitions are different. I personally plan to read every single thread in PM section before even volunteering to join a PM team. (TEAM!)


Quote:
if someone where to tell me "look, this game is going to be 12 hours a day.. every day...", i would probably think.. "look... old man... mind your own business, you worry about your little bowel problem.. and ill do my arg." then it was. i that's just my opinion.


See.. now that to me is a problem. I'm hoping your joking here (I think you are), but if your really THAT resistant to the advice of others.... I dunno. I think that's a bad sign, because they'd be right.

Now onto UF and it's attitude. MageSteff is right. UF is one of the most welcoming, friendly, best modded forums around. You don't see flame wars here, you don't see a lot of language.. sure, people get frustrated and lash out like in the RI thread sometimes, but that's just human. There are no spam posts. The only other forum community I've seen this civil is Sluggy.net. UF is wonderful. I'm sure there's room for improvement, as there is in all things, but I don't think we're all that bad.

The challenge is.. we're all travelling a difficult and dangerous road. Puppetmasters, Players, Lurkers.. all of us. ARGing is a new and VERY community dependant medium. A lot of the ideas, rules and conventions are undefined. What's acceptable... what is too far... is all up in the air. We're in on the ground floor which is exciting because we get to see a whole new genre grow around US... but we also then will run into a lot of conflict over what its supposed to be and how to behave. Its exciting and terrifying at the same time.

Anyway.. yeah.. i got off track my points.

1) You cant run a game solo. Stop trying, or I'll sic the Robot Monkeys on you.
2) I don't like the form letter idea.. Curtain Breaking = Bad to me.
3) We probably SHOULD try harder to hold in our tempers at the nastier implosions.
4) You can't run a game solo. STOP TRYING.

EDIT: To not make Gupfree and Cortana cry
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:56 pm
Last edited by Dionysus on Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Katsurame
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Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 113
Location: Perpetual Motion
Dionysus wrote:


RULE #1: YOU CAN NOT RUN AN ARG BY YOURSELF



I disagree. I've done two succesful ARG's by myself, and I know of other solo-ARGs that haven't imploded.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:40 pm
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SirQuady
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Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 576

 		RULE #1: YOU CAN NOT RUN AN ARG BY YOURSELF...unless your Dave Szluborski or something. Wink

No really, running a solo arg is possible. It just like quadruples the chances of implosion (at least).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:42 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Katsurame wrote:
Dionysus wrote:


RULE #1: YOU CAN NOT RUN AN ARG BY YOURSELF



I disagree. I've done two succesful ARG's by myself, and I know of other solo-ARGs that haven't imploded.


That was because the PM's like yourself a) know what they are getting into, b)have a well thought out and planned out game, c) understand the time commitment and have made plans for it.

What makes players cry is the PMs that have good idea, but have not thought out the story arc and do not understand the time commitment that running a game entails. It's sad really when you think about it, you have a PM that wants to run, and players who want to play, but if the game implodes niether group is satisfied.


SirQuady wrote:
RULE #1: YOU CAN NOT RUN AN ARG BY YOURSELF...unless your Dave Szluborski or something.


Even Dave has behind the scenes help. Running by yourself is possible, provided you do what any PM does, plan it out in advance.



Rule #0 Always have a plan

Plan out your possible story arc, plan out your puzzles, plan out your characters, plan out your time commitment. You don't have to have every last thing written down, but you do have to know where you are going and where you will end. Don't go making up new and different story parts once the game begins, or it could easily get away from you because you lose sight of the plan.

There were a lot of sub plots we wanted to run with Orbital Colony. There were sub plots we could have developed as the game progressed. We had to be strong and tell ourselves that as much fun as they would be, we really didn't have the time to give those sub plots as much of our time and effort as they would need to make them as good as the parts we had planned. We had to cut out plot down to the basics in order for us to be certain that we had it all polished up nice and pretty.

It doesn't matter if you have one PM or 100 PMs, you must have a plan and stick to it.
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:31 am
Last edited by MageSteff on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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FLmutant
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Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
MageSteff wrote:
Don't go making up new and different story parts once the game begins, or it could easily get away from you because you lose sight of the plan.


Not sure I'd necessarily agree to that, we frequently add elements and rewrite endings and what not as the ARG is progressing. Occassionally those are radical changes. If you do it right, though, it certainly always *looks* like everything was planned. But I wouldn't want people to lose sight of the idea that immersive storytelling can be more dynamic and not "on rails" from just pre-planning.

So I'd say you've got to have a plan and stick to it, but you can rewrite the plan on a constant basis to maximum interactivity if you really want to.

Maybe we need rule #negative 1: The more ambitious your game design, the higher your chance for implosion: don't underestimate the cost of complexity.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:00 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
FLmutant wrote:
MageSteff wrote:
Don't go making up new and different story parts once the game begins, or it could easily get away from you because you lose sight of the plan.


Not sure I'd necessarily agree to that, we frequently add elements and rewrite endings and what not as the ARG is progressing. Occassionally those are radical changes. If you do it right, though, it certainly always *looks* like everything was planned. But I wouldn't want people to lose sight of the idea that immersive storytelling can be more dynamic and not "on rails" from just pre-planning.

So I'd say you've got to have a plan and stick to it, but you can rewrite the plan on a constant basis to maximum interactivity if you really want to.

Maybe we need rule #negative 1: The more ambitious your game design, the higher your chance for implosion: don't underestimate the cost of complexity.


Yeah, but the main problem with implosions from what I have seen, is the lack of plans, and the lack of careful rewriting when changing the plan while the game is live. Shoot with Orbital Colony we had enough material for about 5 games, if we had run with all of it, quality would have suffered a lot. Cutting it down to the bare bones of one basic idea took almost as much time as coming up with the ideas.

Having a plan in mind, and keeping the plan in mind when making changes, helps the game run a bit better. Everyone behind the curtain knowing the plan allows the PM team some wiggle room to make up minor stuff on the fly that will fit the overall plan without causing a catastrophic failure.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:47 pm
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Rolerbe
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 330
Location: North America
krystyn wrote:
There are a heck of a lot of squeaky wheels around here, with little grease in sight. A good game might eventually pass Unfiction by, because the squeaking's grown so loud and relentless...


This hits the mark. If I were even fantacizing about running an ARG, reading the diatribes that have gone on here would make me prone to bypass. The only way for implosions to reduce, and quality to improve is for the genre to move out of 'niche' and into mainstream.

The only way for that to happen is for funding sources to solidify either as mainstream advertising or direct player support (i.e. $$). Although UF is an active community focussed on ARG's, it represents a small player base for both of these funding approaches. As such, the hardcore UF crowd is not representative of the true player base (the great unwashed) that needs to be targeted. The point -- PM's aiming for mainstream status aren't primarily targeting you. So the carping and kvetching falls somewhat flat.

Having said all that admittedly contentious bit, I think one thing that may be worth thinking about re Rose's idea would be to send the suggested email and include a backdoor mechanism whereby a failing PM could offer to pass the torch for the creation s/he no longer has the energy for on to some of those here who might have the interest in carrying on, rather than having all suffer through yet another implosion. ??
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:49 pm
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fungol
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Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 7
Location: San Francisco
seamount wrote:
Personally I have never found anything useful here, but maybe im not looking hard enough.


In reading this thread, this quote encapsulates my take on the issue.

I'm not saying there Isn't info, I'm saying that it has accessability problems.

Most people have never used IRC, or realize how large a portion of the PMing resources it is here.

Programming a VCR and programming a TiVo are essentially the same thing, the user interface is what made one a joke and the other a killer component.

I think that if someone sat down and said "What is the best format to present information to new PMs", you'd get a completely different answer than [my impression of the current] "How do we provide information to new PMs using the same tools we're already using".

my $0.02

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:58 pm
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buff
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 106

 		Then, on the other hand, if the PM in questions can't be arsed to look around and find the abundant information - then WHY, OH, WHY is he/she/it trying to create one of the most complex types of games on the face of this planet?

That's like trying to go to Mars by putting coins in the Sodamachine.

NO COMMON SENSE!

Okay, let's assume that the PM-to-Be is (Pick your choice):
- A: too lazy to find the information.
- B: too stupid to find the information.
- C: A combination of the above, as well as a frustrating disability to listen to people who have done what he/she/it is trying to achieve.

And, if any of these cases be true - then God bewares of the game that's going to emerge from it.

In that case, I sense strange AIM, strange Geocities pages, strange Curiosities ahead.

So, for the sake of simplicity in case you were unable to follow my point.

If you can't find the information on PMing, then you shouldn't.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:37 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
buff wrote:

If you can't find the information on PMing, then you shouldn't.


That is what we are trying to say, but the people who actually need that message are unlikely to ever see it...
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:25 pm
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Buff (Not logged in)
Guest


 		I know.

It just seems like this discussion re-emerges from the depths of the forum every time a game implodes. Gets kinda repetetive...

We (as a community) has to face that we can't shove our advice down the throats of people who are stupid enough to ignore people who have done that they are trying to do.

Even if that would be a great thing to do.

They would be quiet.
The games would be better.

In advance, I apologize for my cynical and irritated tone - but come on, it ain't gonna change. Sadly, enough.

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 7:09 pm
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Rolerbe
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 330
Location: North America

 		Not
Buff (Not logged in) wrote:
people who are stupid enough to ignore people who have done that they are trying to do.

but rather people 'stupid enough' to attempt to make these games for us in the first place. As Ian says: (here)
Quote:
I'm fundamentally quite impressed by the ARG-thing - it has many of the design features I've been espousing with clients for the last couple of years: a business-oriented design, technology limitations as core to the story rather than limitations of the gameplay, and so on.
But I've never managed to think of an angle to successfully monetise it. The gamers are so good - and their knowledge so easily shared, that it would be a nightmare to make it accessible to a newcomer. And if the game is one-shot, then we're back to the massively front-loaded development model that is sucking the life out of every studio I know.

The issue isn't how to improve the quality of the games that get started, but rather how to create a market dynamic (i.e. that pesky business thing called a 'revenue model') that will bring high quality attempts to the genre.

Given the current state of affairs, I don't see anything wrong with the outreach attempt that started this discussion, or the desire to be supportive rather than scornful of grass roots effort.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:55 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Rolerbe wrote:
Not
Buff (Not logged in) wrote:
people who are stupid enough to ignore people who have done that they are trying to do.

but rather people 'stupid enough' to attempt to make these games for us in the first place. As Ian says: (here)
Quote:
I'm fundamentally quite impressed by the ARG-thing - it has many of the design features I've been espousing with clients for the last couple of years: a business-oriented design, technology limitations as core to the story rather than limitations of the gameplay, and so on.
But I've never managed to think of an angle to successfully monetise it. The gamers are so good - and their knowledge so easily shared, that it would be a nightmare to make it accessible to a newcomer. And if the game is one-shot, then we're back to the massively front-loaded development model that is sucking the life out of every studio I know.

The issue isn't how to improve the quality of the games that get started, but rather how to create a market dynamic (i.e. that pesky business thing called a 'revenue model') that will bring high quality attempts to the genre.

Given the current state of affairs, I don't see anything wrong with the outreach attempt that started this discussion, or the desire to be supportive rather than scornful of grass roots effort.


I'm sorry but I just had a nasty knee jerk reaction. As one of the PMs invloved with a Grassroots game, one does not need a "revenue model" to produce a quality game... Lockjaw, Chasing the Wish, Acheron, Metacortechs, etc. had no backing commercial revenue, and were still vert successful, well put together games.

It is about how to educate those new to the genre about how much front end work goes into a game before launching that we need to improve. Commercially backed or For Profit games generally already have done the front end work. It's the grass roots new PMs we need to reach.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:20 pm
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Rolerbe
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 330
Location: North America
MageSteff wrote:
I'm sorry but I just had a nasty knee jerk reaction.

Sad Sorry. I did not in any way mean to imply that there had to be a profit motive for there to be a good game. Quite the opposite in fact. There certainly have been good grassroots games -- in fact, there appear to be some running now!

My point is twofold: 1-ARGs will remain niche relative to the mainstream entertainment world, and there will be many more implodes or at least low quality attempts than big hits if authorship remains a 'hobby'. I don't see this as either bad or good, it just is.

And, 2-given the hobby (or at least unproven commercial) nature of the genre at present, I think our criticism of amateur PM's should be light. Any ARG at all (even those that implode) represents a significant commitment from the author(s). Over-censor and over-criticize, and why would anyone take the chance? Better, in the spirit of Rose's original post, that we should continue to proactively seek out ways to reduce the hurdle to PM success. So, yes, I do take exception to Buff's last statement regarding grassroots PM's. I'm willing to be much more critical of commercial ventures. (as I am here)
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:06 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Rolerbe wrote:
MageSteff wrote:
I'm sorry but I just had a nasty knee jerk reaction.

Sad Sorry. I did not in any way mean to imply that there had to be a profit motive for there to be a good game. Quite the opposite in fact. There certainly have been good grassroots games -- in fact, there appear to be some running now!

My point is twofold: 1-ARGs will remain niche relative to the mainstream entertainment world, and there will be many more implodes or at least low quality attempts than big hits if authorship remains a 'hobby'. I don't see this as either bad or good, it just is.

And, 2-given the hobby (or at least unproven commercial) nature of the genre at present, I think our criticism of amateur PM's should be light. Any ARG at all (even those that implode) represents a significant commitment from the author(s). Over-censor and over-criticize, and why would anyone take the chance? Better, in the spirit of Rose's original post, that we should continue to proactively seek out ways to reduce the hurdle to PM success. So, yes, I do take exception to Buff's last statement regarding grassroots PM's. I'm willing to be much more critical of commercial ventures. (as I am here)


I think it is reaching the mainstream, but not under a revenue "generator" by itself. It has been used as a marketing tool to advertise products, or draw attention to a brand in a novel way. So far* games that have been purely as income generating sources by themselves, have not proved to be viable. This may change as the player base continues to grow. However, I don't know that ARGs will have the same draw as video games or click-to-play style games. 1.) ARGs require more time to play. It may only be a few minutes each day, but you cannot sit down and play an ARG in one night, simply because you cannot unlock new areas of the game in the same manner one can unlock new areas of a video game. Updates/information/challenges may only come along once a day or once a week. 2. The challenges are (sometimes) different than in video games, requiring social interaction, or group problem solving to overcome. Not everyone wants to operate on that level. While this will attract some players it may repel others.


Part of the allure of this niche is that the basic tools for creating these games/events/challenges are readily available to anyone at any financial level. I like that fact that it doesn't matter how much you can afford to spend monetarily that makes a good game. The thought, creativity and hard work that goes into the game has the greatest impact on it's success.

Fortunately, (or unfortunately depending on the game), there are no financial hoops, no corporate backer, no publisher that has to be guaranteed a financial profit from these games. If it did, I wonder if The Beast would have been the first and the last of it's kind.


* I am watching PPX and Studio Cypher to see how their models work out.
PPX has the puzzle cards that must be traded for or purchased in order to enter puzzle solves. Studio Cypher has a pay per adventure model that grants early access to challenges, increased action to character and information sources, and ability to enter challenge solves. It will be interesting to see how these models develop.
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:05 am
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