Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:14 pm
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled Part 2 (Read 1st Post!)
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
View previous topicView next topic
Page 28 of 59 [877 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, ..., 57, 58, 59  Next
Author Message
Guin
Unfettered


Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 400
Location: Antartica
Sh1ft wrote:
If you are interested, download the modified perl script here. I don't write a lot of code, so my changes are probably a kludge, and perl is too slow for any kind of sustained decrypts.


many thanks and no worries

I actually had this going over in my mind a lot over night - well it beats my RL assignments!!! - but Ive just done some things using the java applet:

Code:
DWJXHYRFDGTMSHPUURXJ = NORMAL key stream 1-54
DLGSEQNBWSPSSCZJLDPJ = 53,54,14-26,1-13,27-52 = MOTOR deck Keystream
KDQAMANARVVPUMCBFHSD = keystream WITH PASSKEY "IFENTROPYWINS"


Entering a passkey then entering the motor deck doesnt change this as the passkey takes prescidence on the applet and it assumes the deck is 1-54.

So by amending it im hoping thats what we have been missing. I am really kicking myself - I should have stuck to manual keying but it takes soooooo long.

Another thing I need to clarify is the way to identify the output value. normally in step 5 you count the value of the top card and this produces the output value - but using a passkey you essentially take a second count cut using the values as per the pass key - so E = count cut 5 and then on the second key you would use N = count cut 14 then T = count cut 20 etc. this is donte in the same way as with the previous count cut and all cards are put INFRONT of the final card. However, whats not clear is if you then do step 5 or use the value of the top card - Ive never manually done it with a passphrase. As such I may email Bruce to enquire how this is keystream letter is generated.

Im getting one set up in Ruby as my site host for 13thlabout supports this.
_________________
So long and thanks for all the fish! Trout

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:55 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
miamo_tutti
Boot

Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Posts: 50
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Guin wrote:
Another thing I need to clarify is the way to identify the output value. normally in step 5 you count the value of the top card and this produces the output value - but using a passkey you essentially take a second count cut using the values as per the pass key - so E = count cut 5 and then on the second key you would use N = count cut 14 then T = count cut 20 etc. this is donte in the same way as with the previous count cut and all cards are put INFRONT of the final card. However, whats not clear is if you then do step 5 or use the value of the top card - Ive never manually done it with a passphrase. As such I may email Bruce to enquire how this is keystream letter is generated.


This is the inquiry for which I got the stock "I can't answer every email..." reply from Bruce Schneier awhile back. Paul Crowley, who wrote the "Problems with Solitaire" article at his website ciphergoth.org, was kind enough to help me out.

Paul Crowley wrote:
Eric S Phillips (S) wrote:
> Is the output using a passphrase
> understood to be the card at the top of the deck after performing the
> second count cut?

No. To encrypt using a passphrase, first use the whole passphrase to
shuffle the deck (ignoring any outputs), then generate as many outputs
as needed to encrypt the message. This is how a short passphrase can
encrypt a long message.


I would've already posted this had I known I wasn't the only one confused about it.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:05 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
themandotcom
Veteran


Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Syosset, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

 		I did a search, and alas nothing came up, so I shall post it.


Prehaps the statement that the mystery man said could be the plaintext value of it's hash pass phrase? Maybe we should try typing in the Entropy quote in a one-way hash, I will get on it!
_________________
13th Labour!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:53 am
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
themandotcom wrote:
I did a search, and alas nothing came up, so I shall post it.


Prehaps the statement that the mystery man said could be the plaintext value of it's hash pass phrase? Maybe we should try typing in the Entropy quote in a one-way hash, I will get on it!


Did the one-way hash return numbers and non-alpha characters? If so, that may be the wrong track as solitaire is A-Z only.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:47 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
themandotcom
Veteran


Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Syosset, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
Sh1ft wrote:

Did the one-way hash return numbers and non-alpha characters? If so, that may be the wrong track as solitaire is A-Z only.


I couldn't find a one-way hash, any suggestions would be appreciated, but to tell the truth, i think that it would return numbers...
_________________
13th Labour!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:20 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
themandotcom wrote:
Sh1ft wrote:

Did the one-way hash return numbers and non-alpha characters? If so, that may be the wrong track as solitaire is A-Z only.


I couldn't find a one-way hash, any suggestions would be appreciated, but to tell the truth, i think that it would return numbers...


And non-alpha characters:

Code:

$ /usr/bin/crypt ifentropywinsoutwardlooksshouldleaveyoucold
XlRsFTZPw0nM.


Not as many non-alpha chars as I thought, but there is still a "0" and a "." in there, also a MD5 hash will always return a $1$ at the beginning as well as return non-alpha chars in the hash.

I wonder if a deck order could be derived from the (brilliant!!!) Cryptonomicom. I have been studying the deck order described in the book when Randy Waterhouse decrypts a message from Root:

OSKJJ JGTMW

becomes:

DONOT USEPC

The following short snippets of numbers are from the Appendix, I only duplicate them here as an example:

Ciphertext numerical is:

15 19 11 10 10 10 7 20 13 23

The keystream used to decrypt is:

11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20

So subtracting top from bottom gives us:
15-11=4 which is D
19-4=15 which is O
and so on until you get DONOT USEPC.

Note the duplicate 10's which are a coincidence and inherent to a modulo 26 keystream, kinda interesting but not really applicable.

Next for me is working on things like

EODMF XRUTH numerical values
minus
11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20

And
WBBMC HGFIB numerical values
minus
11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20

And possibly
XIHGU RAGXH
minus
11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20

And
FHURG IFULP
minus
11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20

As per the typical modulo 26 steps.

That will be tomorrow.

<edit>
It might be interesting to add the 11 4 23 21 16 15 14 15 23 20 to the various 10 character ciphertexts from the card to make sure we aren't suppose to encrypt instead of decrypt.

Brain is tired, gotta sleep
</edit>

(Again, the novel is IMO brilliant and if you like reading about WWII, data havens, electronic money, treasure hunts, and crypto - it's a must read. I suppose if you are interested in these things you have already read the book though.....)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:03 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
manleym
Decorated


Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Norwich UK

 		Idea Dump
Over the past few days I have been working on a few ideas I that i came up with last week,

Idea 1) The e-mail fruppet got from Mr Schneier
Quote:
Various Solitaire implentations are available here:

http://www.schneier.com/solitaire.html

However, it's your job to figure out how the key is buried in the phrase.

Good luck,
Bruce


This is stating the key is in the phrase 'if entropy wins outward looks should leave you cold' my first idea on this was an anagram. could not get anywhere with that so gave up that end of thinking primarily then came Idea 2.

Idea 2) Going back to when the sentinal done a article on the card stating
Quote:
I expect it will take a fresh pair of eyes to reframe the problem," mused Jones. "


I thought about this for a day then just before i went to sleep i had the idea "What if" i took the phrase 'If entropy wins, etc' and the reframe clue and took the end letters of each word off,

IE :-
'If entropy wins outward looks should leave you cold'

Becomes :-
'ntrop in utwar ook houl eav ool'

put it into blocks of 5 and you get, NTROP INUTW AROOK HOULE AVOOL

I then tried to anagram this and came up with a load of possible anagrams, I then thought of

idea 3) 'What If' i do the same to the cipher text

Example 'WBBMC', Becomes BBM and so on, I have now tried this in many different ways with both adding the dissapearing text and leaving it out.

I do have another avenue of thought but im still looking into it at the moment but will add to if it brings up something.
_________________
A Bolt here, a screw there, Ahh my Cube detector is nearly finished Mwah ha ha Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
The Most Beautiful Girl In The World
http://www.manleym.co.uk/shop

PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:26 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
themandotcom
Veteran


Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Syosset, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

 		Now I know that this has been mentioned before, but I will try to bring it up again. As stated previously we can add 2 ciphertexts together to get 2 plaintexts added together (assuming thta they are encrypted with the same key.) EX:

Message 1: 00011 Message 2:01001
Keystream:11000 11000
Equals: 11011 10001

Ciphertexts XOR'd together: 11011+10001 is 01010 and the 2 plaintexts XOR'd together is 01010.

Now for those of you who do not know this theory already, the Entropy quote is encrypted with the same keystream as our real code.

Ok, So what I propose to do is to add both ciphertexts together

So, WBBMC HGFIB LXCQY WEZFL ITHPJ LFHWY ETKWY LJOTY YNGYJ+
IFENT ROPYW INSTH ENOUT WARDL OOKSS HOULD LEAVE YOUCO ect.

So for the first block would be
(WBBMC HGFIB)
23 2 2 13 3 8 7 6 9 2
9 6 5 14 20 18 15 16 25 23
6 8 7 2 23 26 22 22 8 25 EQUALS
fhgbwzvvhy

Now that is the two plaintext messages added together in Mod 26. Now we must do all of it, so I will get on that eventually. Now all we have to do is find something intellegible to come up.
_________________
13th Labour!

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:56 pm
Last edited by themandotcom on Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
FranG
Boot

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 35

 		Add?
I know about subtracting 2 ciphertexts that use the same keystream, but I don't remember anything about adding them. If you subract you get:

TextA - key - (TextB - key) which is TextA - TextB - key + key

Key cancels out giving you the difference between the 2 texts. See Arnezami's post on June 24.

What's the deal with adding them? Confused

BTW what's 14 + 13??

PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:30 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

 		Re: Off Tangent
Bruce Schneier wrote:

Various Solitaire implentations are available here:

http://www.schneier.com/solitaire.html

However, it's your job to figure out how the key is buried in the phrase.

Good luck,
Bruce


I think this is probably the best clue we have, which I have taken as a sign to exclude the motor deck order. (Although my scripts are already written to try the motor deck order, and "native" deck order, and a bunch of other options, as well as a "grep" script to parse the voluminous output for likely cleartext.)

In a whitepaper on the http://counterpane.com site, Scheier defined entropy as a "measure of uncertainty". This seems like a great passphrase until I get to the part where the sad truth is that the passphrase does not decode anything. (Also I thought "if entropy wins" = "odds" and "outward looks should leave you cold" = stone cold expression ======= "POKER FACE"!!!!!! Alas, no sensible decrypts emerged.)

Given our past experience with the more difficult cards and the context of the text, my question is, to narrow the scope of what possible passphrase could be "buried" in the "if entropy wins" phrase what should we exclude? Are quotes from famous Earth people appropriate? The text written on the card indicates (to me) that this is a Perplexian matter, and I have tailored my passphrase attempts to vague phrases that are appropriate to the "if entropy wins" phrase.

Because Solitaire/Pontifex is a "earth" equivalent of a keystream generator, should we be looking for quotes from famous earth people as a possible passphrase? I have avoided even the word "Boolean" as this seems far to "earthy" for Garnet and his unknown benefactor. Is this short-sidedness? Should we include words derived from famous earth mathematicians and philsophers names and/or their direct quotes to try and come up with a passphrase appropriate to the "if entropy wins" phrase?

[TIAG]
I suppose the real question is, if we believe that Schneier is actually giving us a MC approved hint, what is OOG and what is IG? Sky is the limit? Should we enthusiastically use famous earth quotes, like the following list compiled by one Kevin Harris in 1995?

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html
[/TIAG]

Here are the last 20-30 attempts of a possible passphrase which have yeilded nothing, they kinda suck but there have been some good ones in the previous 967:
Code:

Passphrase is anappreciationofarrangementandorganization
Passphrase is equilibrium
Passphrase is catabolic
Passphrase is gestalt
Passphrase is tensionreduction
Passphrase is catabolicdestruction
Passphrase is towardsmechanicaldisorder
Passphrase is mechanicaldisorder
Passphrase is mutation
Passphrase is heterogeneous
Passphrase is Differentiation
Passphrase is balance
Passphrase is balanced
Passphrase is homeostasis
Passphrase is orderliness
Passphrase is workofart
Passphrase is symmetrical
Passphrase is symmetry
Passphrase is negentropy
Passphrase is fatchance
Passphrase is empirical
Passphrase is Simplexestsigillumveritatis
Passphrase is principleofleastaction
Passphrase is praegnanz
Passphrase is goodgestalt
Passphrase is theunityofknowledge
Passphrase is metaphor
Passphrase is paragon
Passphrase is paragone
Passphrase is Eidetic
Passphrase is Cartesiananalysis
Passphrase is solipsistic
Passphrase is improbable
Passphrase is intramuros
Passphrase is hiddenandunknown
Passphrase is Ingenuity
Passphrase is self
Passphrase is id
Passphrase is ego
Passphrase is ergo
Passphrase is superego
Passphrase is Egolessness


So far I have tried to avoid using earth terms and earth quotes as possible passphrases, perhaps it was a mistake. After all, pontifex/solitaire as far as we know is an invention of earth.

Sorry for the long "beating a dead horse with a stick type" post......opinions? (Can't hurt at this point.)

EDIT: Sure, ego, id, and superego are Fruedian, and I claimed to have been avoiding "earth" terms, but grasping at straws is grasping at straws!

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:41 am
Last edited by Sh1ft on Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:19 am; edited 4 times in total
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

 		Re: Add?
FranG wrote:
I know about subtracting 2 ciphertexts that use the same keystream, but I don't remember anything about adding them. If you subract you get:

TextA - key - (TextB - key) which is TextA - TextB - key + key

Key cancels out giving you the difference between the 2 texts. See Arnezami's post on June 24.

What's the deal with adding them? Confused

BTW what's 14 + 13??


In modulo 26 it's 1, or in terms of Solitaire it's "A".

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:02 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
GasparLewis
Unfettered


Joined: 19 Nov 2005
Posts: 474
Location: vicinty of NYC

 		Re: Add?
Sh1ft wrote:
FranG wrote:
I know about subtracting 2 ciphertexts that use the same keystream, but I don't remember anything about adding them. If you subract you get:

TextA - key - (TextB - key) which is TextA - TextB - key + key

Key cancels out giving you the difference between the 2 texts. See Arnezami's post on June 24.

What's the deal with adding them? Confused

BTW what's 14 + 13??


In modulo 26 it's 1, or in terms of Solitaire it's "A".


I dunno, Shift. 1, although normally matching with A, isn't the first possible option; that would be 13+13 -> 26 -> 0 -> A. 1, therefore, would be B, if I'm not mistaken.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 8:31 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
funkysfinest
Boot

Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 19
Location: Dundee, Bonny Scotland

 		Hi there, forgive me but I haven't read every article in these threads but I would like to express my opinion which others may or may not have stated.
There is a substitution sypher named the Entropic Attack, it just states that "E" & "THE" are the most common letter/word. Not much point giving you the link; it's extremely basic.
Why did Von give a tip? Garnet is the Scribe!
Garnet works in the Cryptology Dept and I used the Entropic Attack to desypher this code.
Idea Therefore I think that the quote, "If entopy wins, outward looks should leave you cold" means that you need to include the heat sensitives to find the key then remove them to find the message.
PS. I will provide the link that someone else posted in the crypto forum here or perplex; I forget. This link is to a frequency analysis and tells you the order of the whole alphabet in its percentage of usage:
http://cryptoclub.math.uic.edu/substitutioncipher/frequency_txt.htm

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:07 pm
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
sjbuknewc
Boot

Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne

 		hi
ive just read thru all the pages of this thread
(took me 6 hours haha!)
and i see that the anagram ICE SLOWLY seems to have come up

This got me thinking:
to ice something slowly is to FREEZE it
dunno if this caould be of any help as i don't have the card myself i just got pulled in!!

Let me know if its any help

Steve

PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:10 pm
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

 		Re: Add?
I could be wrong, but I thought 13+13=26=Z, I only thought you subtracted when you exceeded 26.

GasparLewis wrote:
Sh1ft wrote:
FranG wrote:
I know about subtracting 2 ciphertexts that use the same keystream, but I don't remember anything about adding them. If you subract you get:

TextA - key - (TextB - key) which is TextA - TextB - key + key

Key cancels out giving you the difference between the 2 texts. See Arnezami's post on June 24.

What's the deal with adding them? Confused

BTW what's 14 + 13??


In modulo 26 it's 1, or in terms of Solitaire it's "A".


I dunno, Shift. 1, although normally matching with A, isn't the first possible option; that would be 13+13 -> 26 -> 0 -> A. 1, therefore, would be B, if I'm not mistaken.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:19 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 28 of 59 [877 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, ..., 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, ..., 57, 58, 59  Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group