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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled Part 2 (Read 1st Post!)
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manleym
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Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Norwich UK

 		Right i have had my coffee now and am very awake

I was looking up on Bruce Schneier and found out an interesting facts about him one of them was

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes.


Now what i have taken from that qoute is
Epic Passpoem (Possibly Haiku)

RedZed333 wrote:

Seeing as there are 43 letters in 'If entropy...etc, perhaps there are 11 letters in the final part of the Haiku, to bring it up to 54.


From looking up on Norse Heroes there was one that stuck out
which was Brynhild and his name stood for
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
bright battle

which this contains 11 letters
so i have
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
If entropy wins
Outward looks should leave you cold
Bright Battle

but that does not tie in with entropy so went looking on another front and got
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Bright Light

So now have
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
If entropy wins
outward looks should leave you cold
Bright Light


Im going to look up more on Norse Heroes to see if I can get any more
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:03 am
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mac_monkey
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 		Bright battle is 12 letters Sad
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:33 am
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manleym
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mac_monkey wrote:
Bright battle is 12 letters Sad

So it is Laughing I need a new pair of glasses
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:51 am
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doublecross
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 		If it is a haiku it should also have five syllables - difficult to reconcile five syllables and 11 letters, though. Maybe one word, like 'indivisible'.
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xx

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:55 am
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manleym
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doublecross wrote:
If it is a haiku it should also have five syllables - difficult to reconcile five syllables and 11 letters, though. Maybe one word, like 'indivisible'.
How about Scandinavia

**Edit** Just found a really good one 'temperature'
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:59 am
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doublecross
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 		Temperature only has 3 or 4 syllables (depending if you pronounce it tempracher or temperacher).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:18 am
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manleym
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doublecross wrote:
Temperature only has 3 or 4 syllables (depending if you pronounce it tempracher or temperacher).

Needing more Coffee
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A Bolt here, a screw there, Ahh my Cube detector is nearly finished Mwah ha ha Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:23 am
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aliendial
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Location: Far Far Away. Nowhere Near You. Really.

 		On the subject of haiku - I recalled from another game some years ago a discussion about how modern haiku are not limited to the 5-7-5 format. I can't find that discussion at the moment but did find this, which I think addresses the underlying reason why the number of syllables is not really a meaningful way of describing a traditional haiku in English:

Quote:
Even among writers more familiar with the haiku tradition, a literal interpretation of the Japanese form may prove problematic. The 5-7-5 syllabic structure does not map meaningfully into English, for several reasons. First, the rhythms of the languages differ. While Japanese falls naturally into patterns of odd syllables, English falls naturally into pairs of syllables. English is also less polysyllabic overall, and thus replicating Japanese syllabics requires a greater number of words. To take a striking illustration: there are few English equivalents for one of the favourite subjects of classic Japanese haiku, the five-syllable bird hototogisu (usually translated as 'cuckoo'). Furthermore, syllabic poetry in general has been rare in English, a language shaped by stresses rather than length counts, and whose verse forms have been organized accordingly. Lastly, syllable counts are differently calculated in Japanese poetry. Seventeen syllables in a Japanese haiku do not equal seventeen syllables in an English poem. For example, a long vowel is considered to be two syllables, and the punctuating 'cutting word' ñ which in English is replaced by regular punctuation marks ñ is included in the syllable count.

Some poets choose nonetheless to adopt a 5-7-5 syllable count in English, but as this is more verbose than its Japanese equivalent, and forces the language into an uncommon pattern, it can have a detrimental effect among inexperienced writers. A beginning haiku poet may feel obliged to fulfil the count at the expense of the poem. They may add unnecessary verbal phrases; for example, to take the equivalent of hototogisu, write such a strained line as 'Hearken the cuckoo!' to obtain the 'correct' syllable count, not trusting that the more direct 'Cuckoo!' could stand alone. The resulting haiku will have lost an essential quality of simplicity. Perhaps a better guideline than counting syllables ñ and one followed by many contemporary haiku poets - is to follow the word count of a Japanese haiku, which gives a more real approximation of the form's length. Translations are ideal models for this.


http://www.poetrylives.com/SimplyHaiku/SHv1n6/Gemma_Bristow.html

So, not to throw a wrench in the works or anything, but we should probably keep an open mind about the haiku structure.

edit: no wonder I couldn't find it here. It's probably from message 33353 in the cloudmakers group over at yahoo, from the 2001 ARG the Beast. (where you-know-who wrote the Guide and his brother had something to do with it too...)

And here's another discussion of why the structure is more fluid in english (the google cache since the original seems to have moved): http://tinyurl.com/gz3th
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:58 am
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fretty
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Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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Location: South Yorkshire, England

 		Have you read the new Perplex city cards page. It says:
"Sure, they can't predict the future..." etc

could this be a subtle hint to Tarot cards or is it just a coincidence.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:15 pm
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RedZed333
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Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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Location: Sunderland

 		Re: the recent Tarot Card theory............

What difference does it make if it is a Tarot deck or not? Or what the starting suits are?

The one solid bald fact is, assuming it is a Solitaire cipher in the first place, unless we know the deck order via a keyphrase or password etc, then we're up the creek without a paddle.

As long as both coders used the same deck ordering, we could use a pack of 'Mrs Bun the Bakers Wife' or 'Go Fish' if we wanted, the type of cards really don't matter.

To be honest, even if did know the passphrase, I don't even think we can agree what parts of the 'cipher' we should use, or leave out for that matter!!!

We're lost Sad

As for the Haiku, anyone know the Japanese for 'If entropy wins...' etc?

Might be a phonetic kloo there somewhere.................

Man who upside down
In aeroplane
Soon to have crack up.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:24 pm
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ambskunk
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Joined: 18 Mar 2006
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 		For those going down the Tarot path, how are you incorporating into the Solitaire Cypher the turning of cards into numbers at the three steps required ?

I.e. when doing the count cut you convert the 4Clubs into 4 or Joker into 53 etc

Are Tarot cards grouped like the suits in a pack of cards?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:57 pm
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Scribe
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
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Location: Brighton, UK
manleym wrote:
I was looking up on Bruce Schneier and found out an interesting facts about him one of them was

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Most people use passwords. Some people use passphrases. Bruce Schneier uses an epic passpoem, detailing the life and works of seven mythical Norse heroes.



I'm assuming that's from this page, which also notes that "Bruce Schneier eats 0s and 1s for breakfast" and "Every time Bruce Schneier smiles, an amateur cryptographer dies". Class Smile

Kudos for taking a new line of thought, but don't take everything on the internet too seriously Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:46 pm
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PerplexHero
Boot


Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 30
RedZed333 wrote:

What difference does it make if it is a Tarot deck or not? Or what the starting suits are?

The one solid bald fact is, assuming it is a Solitaire cipher in the first place, unless we know the deck order via a keyphrase or password etc, then we're up the creek without a paddle.


For Solitaire cipher, it doesn't matter what is on the cards... you just need to know 3 things. 1) How many cards are in the deck (for Tarot it's 78 + 2 "jokers") because this changes the keystream that will be generated. 2) How to map each card to a unique number (for the deck I proposed, this is provided by the booklet that comes with the cards; or you could use the Tarot suit equivalents of the Bridge order). 3) The order of the cards. This can be the order they come out of the deck, the order of the card numbers, or some other method.

EDIT: Note that the jokers do not have numbers per se, but some of the code I've seen assigns them numbers equal to the number of cards used to generate letters +1 and +2 respectively.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:15 pm
Last edited by PerplexHero on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PerplexHero
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ambskunk wrote:
For those going down the Tarot path, how are you incorporating into the Solitaire Cypher the turning of cards into numbers at the three steps required ?

I.e. when doing the count cut you convert the 4Clubs into 4 or Joker into 53 etc

Are Tarot cards grouped like the suits in a pack of cards?


Tarot cards come in 4 suits of 14 cards each (A-10, plus 4 "court" cards, e.g. Knight/Queen/Prince/Princess") plus a set of 22 numbered cards (0, I, II, III, IV, etc) which are the major arcana and have names (0 is the Fool, I is the Magus, etc).

PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:18 pm
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manleym
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Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Norwich UK
Scribe wrote:

I'm assuming that's from this page, which also notes that "Bruce Schneier eats 0s and 1s for breakfast" and "Every time Bruce Schneier smiles, an amateur cryptographer dies". Class Smile

Kudos for taking a new line of thought, but don't take everything on the internet too seriously Wink


It was from this page, But was not taking it that seriously (just a Bang Head line of thought) but it did seem the most viable one there + it vaguely tied in with Haiku Laughing

One of my faves
If at first you don't succeed at breaking a cipher, you're not Bruce Schneier. (Too True Laughing )
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A Bolt here, a screw there, Ahh my Cube detector is nearly finished Mwah ha ha Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
The Most Beautiful Girl In The World
http://www.manleym.co.uk/shop

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:25 am
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