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 Forum index » Diversions » Perplex City Puzzle Cards » PXC: Silver Puzzle Cards
[Puzzle] #243 Silver - Shuffled Part 2 (Read 1st Post!)
Moderators: AnthraX101, bagsbee, BrianEnigma, cassandra, Giskard, lhall, Mikeyj, myf, poozle, RobMagus, xnbomb
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syllable3
Greenhorn

Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 3

 		Stick it in the freezer!
Sh1ft wrote:
Guin wrote:
has anyone tried Von's hint recently?


Guin asked this way back on page 27, has anybody tried recently? I would incur the charge, but the hint line isn't available here in the US.


I have just texted for the hint and it is as follows;

"Examine more closely. If you're feeling cold, you're overly sensitive. As for the code, everything you need is there"

...interesting(?)...i dont suppose anyone has tried to put the card in the freezer (or fridge), maybe letters appear (or disappear) ala Card 22 Cold Fission. Just a thought (a stupid one i admit!) Smile

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:23 am
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Teebor
Boot


Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 67

 		von's hint is unchanged

Spoiler (Rollover to View):


Examine the card more closely. If you're feeling cold, you're overly sensitive. As for the code everything you need it there.


ok, I was bored and had nothing better to do :p

*edit*

doh, damn you firefox and never updating properly.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:31 am
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UKver2.0
Decorated

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 270
Xanatos wrote:
The wiki states "54 Letter pairs allows for one letter pair for each of the 54 playing cards. The problem arises in that there is no logical pairing of the characters that creates 54 unique pairs." but doesn't go into why there is no logic to it.
People aren't happy with the fact that a WB BM CH... pairing leaves you with double SM's and double VM's. Other pairings also yield duplication. I personally don't see the need for there to be 54 unique letter groups. An example I gave once before was
Quote:
Let's give each suit a letter - A, B, C, D
Now let's give each card a value 1, 2, 3... J, Q, K
And why not call joker one "JA" and joker two "JB"

If there was some encoding algorithm that multiplied suit by value (mod 676) then Suit A and Suit B's Jack might be encoded to look like joker one "JA" and joker two "JB".

A simplistic example I know, but you see there would be exactly two repeats and low and behold there is (if in fact they characters are to be paired WB BM CH...)
I spent a lot of time on turning the 108 into a deck order. The fact that the 108 doesn't fit with the standard rules of solitaire (divisible by 5) has been one of the biggest motivations. Unfortunately, assigning the 108 to the deck order leaves you with almost nothing for a cipher text. I really don't want to post all the things that I've tried because I don't want to discourage someone from trying them again.
_________________
Naomi: We did joke that we’d end up have to go round to your houses with shovels, drive you to the location and tell you to dig.
Andrea: Paint a little X on the ground with spray paint..
Naomi: and then you’d try to anagram 'shovels'

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:51 am
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Kradlum
Boot


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 69
Location: London

 		There are too many helpful anagrams of "if entropy wins..."!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:35 pm
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Sh1ft
Veteran


Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 110
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

 		Re: Stick it in the freezer!
syllable3 wrote:
Sh1ft wrote:
Guin wrote:
has anyone tried Von's hint recently?


Guin asked this way back on page 27, has anybody tried recently? I would incur the charge, but the hint line isn't available here in the US.


I have just texted for the hint and it is as follows;

"Examine more closely. If you're feeling cold, you're overly sensitive. As for the code, everything you need is there"

...interesting(?)...i dont suppose anyone has tried to put the card in the freezer (or fridge), maybe letters appear (or disappear) ala Card 22 Cold Fission. Just a thought (a stupid one i admit!) Smile


Ah, thanks to all for checking to see if the hint has changed. Too bad it hasn't.

Somebody in either this thread or the previous thread put their card in the freezer and claimed that the disappearing 20 characters turned red.

EDIT:
Turned red under infrared lighting here.

Miamo_tutti describes his card's disappearing text here.

Second edit:
it was a blacklight, not infrared.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:40 pm
Last edited by Sh1ft on Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cabbage
Unfettered


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: North-East England, UK

 		Yay, it's very nearly time for Shuffled Part 3 (Read 1st Post!) (Then Read Equally Long 2nd Post!)

Please pardon my ignorance, but

Sh1ft wrote:
EDIT:
Turned red under infrared lighting here.


...doesn't everything kind of look red under infrared? [Duh...]

Anyway, I am currently reading Cryptonomicon (it's a very long book) to see if it sheds any light on the problem, but I am only just getting up to the bit with Pontifex / Solitaire / Klondike, and now school has started so my reading time has been radically reduced.

There has been quite a lot of anagramming going on recently, but I have been trying a different tack of late, that is that the whispered phrase, because it was whispered, could have been misheard. (I know that this has been suggested before)

Very simply it could have been:

If entropy wins, outward looks should leave you code

Of course, this gives the opposite interpretation to cold as in off the scent.

Or more doubtfully:

If anybody winks awkward looks should leave you cold

but MURDERINTHEDARK did not seem to work as a passkey. Edit: neither did WINKMURDER.

Has anyone else come up with any bizarre Chinese Whispers possibilities? Or maybe even a credible one?


Cabbage Mr. Green
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:52 pm
Last edited by Cabbage on Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UKver2.0
Decorated

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 270

 		Re: Stick it in the freezer!
Sh1ft wrote:
EDIT:
Turned red under infrared lighting here.
I think it was the other end of the spectrum...
_________________
Naomi: We did joke that we’d end up have to go round to your houses with shovels, drive you to the location and tell you to dig.
Andrea: Paint a little X on the ground with spray paint..
Naomi: and then you’d try to anagram 'shovels'

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:37 pm
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Cabbage
Unfettered


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: North-East England, UK

 		Guess I shouldn't have dropped Science at school...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:51 pm
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el_compsci
Kilroy

Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 1

 		Purple?
Hi Guys,
I'm new, first post etc.. and can't find this anywhere else through my limited mastery of the search so thought I'd post it anyway.

Does anyone else notice a slight purple pattern on some of the black on the part of the deck that is not covered? Particularly around the edge of the compass. I tried scanning this but I couldn't get a decent view, its most obvious under bright light but still not really legible. It could be ultra-violet security marker but sadly I don't have a UV light to test this theory. I might grab a cheap UV led and test this if I get a chance to go to maplins.

cheers
Simon

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:21 pm
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Cabbage
Unfettered


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: North-East England, UK

 		Re: Purple?
el_compsci wrote:
Hi Guys,
I'm new, first post etc.. and can't find this anywhere else through my limited mastery of the search so thought I'd post it anyway.

Does anyone else notice a slight purple pattern on some of the black on the part of the deck that is not covered? Particularly around the edge of the compass. I tried scanning this but I couldn't get a decent view, its most obvious under bright light but still not really legible. It could be ultra-violet security marker but sadly I don't have a UV light to test this theory. I might grab a cheap UV led and test this if I get a chance to go to maplins.

cheers
Simon


Hi Simon, welcome to the Shuffled madhouse. I have just tried this with my daughter's Sonic Screwdriver, and could not find anything. But that wouldn't be the first time I had missed something, so others please feel free to try...

Cabbage
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:10 pm
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justdig
Boot

Joined: 14 Aug 2005
Posts: 29
UKver2.0 wrote:
Xanatos wrote:
The wiki states "54 Letter pairs allows for one letter pair for each of the 54 playing cards. The problem arises in that there is no logical pairing of the characters that creates 54 unique pairs." but doesn't go into why there is no logic to it.
People aren't happy with the fact that a WB BM CH... pairing leaves you with double SM's and double VM's. Other pairings also yield duplication. I personally don't see the need for there to be 54 unique letter groups. An example I gave once before was
Quote:
Let's give each suit a letter - A, B, C, D
Now let's give each card a value 1, 2, 3... J, Q, K
And why not call joker one "JA" and joker two "JB"

If there was some encoding algorithm that multiplied suit by value (mod 676) then Suit A and Suit B's Jack might be encoded to look like joker one "JA" and joker two "JB".

A simplistic example I know, but you see there would be exactly two repeats and low and behold there is (if in fact they characters are to be paired WB BM CH...)
I spent a lot of time on turning the 108 into a deck order. The fact that the 108 doesn't fit with the standard rules of solitaire (divisible by 5) has been one of the biggest motivations. Unfortunately, assigning the 108 to the deck order leaves you with almost nothing for a cipher text. I really don't want to post all the things that I've tried because I don't want to discourage someone from trying them again.



This is pretty much what I suggested earlier. I assumed the card values would be the first letter of the card, eg OTTFFetc and the card suit would be the first letter of the suit, e.g. CSHD. And so every card would be represented as two symbols, with the jokers being... possibly wild cards.

Not only is this a logical way of doing it, but it would also significantly reduce the possible combinations for the keystream. Somebody with some programming knowledge could quite easily create a programt hat would run all combinations and check against a dictionary.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:18 pm
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ixalon
Decorated


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 238
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

 		Well might as well add my unsuccessful attempts to the conversation...

I've been trying to transform the 108 characters using the 10 character prefix and suffix. I've tried many many combinations but haven't come across a result which looks like an deck order (i.e. I'd expect 4 characters to have 13 occurences, 13 to have 4 and then 2-4 characters to encode the jokers.)
_________________
Help us find one in a billion! http://www.billion2one.org/
Help us translate: http://www.billion2one.org/translate.zip
Stats: http://www.billion2one.org/?o=stats

PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:02 am
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themandotcom
Veteran


Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Syosset, New York, USA, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe

 		So, I was thinking last night, without knowledge of a shared secret, the text would mean nothing to a reciever. What is the only knowledge we have? The quote. Ahhh yes the elucive quote. So maybe we need to think of the quote another- non anagrammed filled way. So "If entropy wins then outward looks should leave you cold." in logic form should look like: p->q (or if p then q) where p and q are the halves of the quote. So the logical equivalence is ~p->~q or If entropy dosen't win (loses), then outward looks should leave you not cold (warm). What could this mean? Maybe our guy was lying to us, where if a true statement to a false statement would be false. So does outward looks do not leave you cold? or does entropy win? (double negitive ~~q) I hope this gets brains working. This may mean nothing, but I think the quote is the key aspect, without that, we have to assume no one can solve this card.
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13th Labour!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:47 pm
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Cabbage
Unfettered


Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 320
Location: North-East England, UK
themandotcom wrote:
So, I was thinking last night, without knowledge of a shared secret, the text would mean nothing to a reciever. What is the only knowledge we have? The quote. Ahhh yes the elucive quote. So maybe we need to think of the quote another- non anagrammed filled way. So "If entropy wins then outward looks should leave you cold." in logic form should look like: p->q (or if p then q) where p and q are the halves of the quote. So the logical equivalence is ~p->~q or If entropy dosen't win (loses), then outward looks should leave you not cold (warm). What could this mean? Maybe our guy was lying to us, where if a true statement to a false statement would be false. So does outward looks do not leave you cold? or does entropy win? (double negitive ~~q) I hope this gets brains working. This may mean nothing, but I think the quote is the key aspect, without that, we have to assume no one can solve this card.


Hi themandotcom and everyone else still soldiering on with this card,

Me, myself and I have been down this route but it left all three of us somewhat dazed and slightly confused:

Original quote:
If entropy wins, outward looks should leave you cold.

Corrolaries:
If entropy wins, inward looks should leave you warm.
If entropy loses, outward looks should leave you warm.
If entropy loses, inward looks should leave you cold.

Also, if code is misheard as cold:

If entropy wins, outward looks should leave you code.
If entropy loses, inward looks should leave you code.


Does entropy refer to:
Shuffling the cards
Heat and cold (see "cold" below) ???

Does cold refer to:
Disappearing letters
Off the scent (as in hunt the thimble)
Code (misheard word) ???

Does inward / outward refer to:
the spoken phrase itself or part thereof
the picture cards
the code (e.g. outer 20 letters, inner non-disappearing letters)
inside or outside of each group of five letters
inside or outside the club itself ???

I have probably missed out a load of other possibilities as well, like the anagram route.

No apologies for going over old ground here, but like
the man above says, it might spark off some more ideas.

Cabbage Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:14 pm
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CrestfallenGirl
Boot

Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Southern California

 		The Significance of the number 108 ... fresh ideas (maybe)
There are several significant instances related to the number 108 ...
Thought I would throw a few out there - specifically ones I found to (perhaps) be helpful.

    1) Sanskrit alphabet: There are 54 letters in the Sanskrit alphabet. Each has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti. 54 times 2 is 108.
    2) Islam: The number 108 is used in Islam to refer to God.
    3) Jain: In the Jain religion, 108 are the combined virtues of five categories of holy ones, including 12, 8, 36, 25, and 27 virtues respectively.
    4) Chinese: The Chinese Buddhists and Taoists use a 108 bead mala, which is called su-chu, and has three dividing beads, so the mala is divided into three parts of 36 each.
    5) The ancient Indians were excellent mathematicians and 108 may be the product of a precise mathematical operation (e.g. 1 power 1 x 2 power 2 x 3 power 3 = 108) which was thought to have special numerological significance.
    6) Astrology: There are 12 constellations, and 9 arc segments called namshas or chandrakalas. 9 times 12 equals 108. Chandra is moon, and kalas are the divisions within a whole. Planets and Houses: there are 12 houses and 9 planets. 12 times 9 equals 108.



PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:51 am
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