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[cassandra]

[SPEC] Hidden Message in Police Cymbalisty Files?

[GuyP]

Incidentally, I've posted the "official timeline of events" and some "differing opinions" to the wiki on the Isaac Cymbalisty page.

[cassandra]

After some more work, I'm wondering if the message might not read "ask why mass is too much" or something like that.

So I've asked it.

What do you think? Cymbalisty was described as "in good physical condition," "well developed and well nourished," "chest musculature is well developed," etc, but he was about 5'5" and weighed 165 lbs, which isn't really in the normal healthy range (I think) - was he a bodybuilder? is there something in his body that accounts for the extra weight?

any ideas? am I crazy?

PS. Perhaps this is crude, but where is the body? It was "released" at the beginning of Feb, but to whom? Was there a funeral? A burial? Cremation? Rotting away in a box somewhere?

[Mikeyj]

[Uhtoff]

Hmmm - BMI of 27.5 is technically overweight on the dietician voodoo chart, but I wouldn't say it rules out those descriptions, especially 'well nourished'! BMI is fairly old news as it pays no attention to build, the average rugby forward has a BMI of 28.5 according to a sports coach website, and if the numbers I found were right Martin Johnson had a BMI of 30 when he captained England at the last World Cup. I know he's not a professional sportsman, but I think someone could easily have a BMI of 27.5, still be perfectly fit and attract all those comments.

[duckiemonster]

Then perhaps we are to ask about the disputed 'mass' of ceretin in the blood? Or the mass of copper in the liver? Or the mass of green goo on the abdomen?

[meat_paste_dave]

What about the organ masses?

Lungs 800g/810g
Heart 270g (normal)
Spleen 198g (normal)
kidneys 150g/140g (normal)
Liver 1450g (normal)

Wikipedia gives masses for the heart, kidneys, liver, and found spleen mass elsewhere.

Anyone know about lungs? A quick search came up with a figure of 300-400g per lung, half the number quoted in the autopsy.

Meat_paste

[Crane]

Then I would imagine that's the mass for BOTH lungs, silly. ^^

[duckiemonster]

Generally 400g right, 300g left- depends on the amount of fluid in them though. We know there was a watery liquid in them, but this doesn't seem significant.

[Small Geezer]

[chimera245]

Watery liquid, double weight.

Surely they would have noticed if he drowned.

SURELY it can't be that . . .

[duckiemonster]

You know... I'd completely missed that there were two weights for the lungs. Obviously wasn't awake...

The lungs are incredibly heavy and there was fluid reported, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'd drowned. There are other reasons that the lungs can fill with fluid; heart failure is one, infection is another.

*thinking aloud*

The liver congestion he's suffering from the copper could have caused a back-up in the venous system, forcing fluid into the lungs- this would have been a gradual thing, making him generally unwell and short of breath. It would also have made him 'heavy' as he'd have been retaining fluid and having (?)some form of right-sided heart failure.

But another thing to add to the list of 'that's not fitting in' items, good spot

[Ramazel]

For what it's worth I found this:

[Uhtoff]

Aye - just goes to show that if you know something then you aren't necessarily the right person to look at it. I saw 800g, thought 'That's about right for the lungs' and moved on!

Possible reasons -
OOG error (always possible)
Pulmonary oedema (fluid in the lungs that has leaked from the blood vessels either through pressure changes, heart failure, low blood proteins or possibly toxins)
Drowning/Lungs filled with external fluid

Papillary muscle rupture is usually associated with a previous heart attack, or possibly chest trauma, neither of which we had, and would cerrtainly be something that would have been mentioned on the pathologist report. I doubt the liver has anything to do with it, for liver disease to be severe enough to cause a low enough blood protein level to cause pulmonary oedema you'd be very unwell indeed.

Duckie you've got that about face, right sided heart failure can lead to liver congestion and liver failure, not the other way round. Cirrhosis -> portal venous congestion and hypertension, not systemic venous. Also you need left sided heart failure for congestive pulmonary oedema and in that case his heart would very much not be normal.

In the light of the mostly otherwise normal autopsy you'd have to suggest that fluid soaked lungs would either be caused by inhaled water, instilled water or possibly some kind of inhaled toxin that had caused leaky capillaries.

[EDIT] - Possible inhaled toxins include phosgene, ozone, chlorine, Teflon fumes, nitrogen dioxide and smoke. Sure there's more, but that's a start.

[duckiemonster]