Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 12:28 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Defining ARGspace on the Gaming Continuum
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 2 of 3 [45 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

 		And I guess different people have different reality thresholds. That's why some people can really get into anime while others just say "bah, cartoons!".

People have different tastes. If a pirate shrubbery talks to me on AIM, I cannot suspend disbelief no matter how hard I try. I start wondering how a pirate has access to AIM, or the Internet for that matter. But if the PM's create a flash based chat interface with a robot from the future talking to me I can easily adjust that dial and dive into that world.

I see no issue in defining the genre because you can still have your pirate shrubberies and robots from the future... we're just saying that they fall under the category of "characters". Okay so I am restricting creativity, but I wouldn't like to play a game with no characters... you can still be creative and make your characters out of talking cheese, but they are still characters.


People have different tastes and different views. One of the great things about this place is the wide range of disparate opinions. A difference of opinions overshadows the question of defining the genre. What will it achieve and how would it hurt?

Will the genre still flourish without a definition? If so, then why hasn't it flourished during the past 3 years. Maybe it has! We come back to a difference of opinions... how do you define "floursih"?

We don't like the same games and don't look forward to the same things. There is no collective voice pushing things forward because everyone wants and looks for different things. And that's why I love this place.

Yet when we are all playing a game we are a collective and the meta stays on the side as we all know what should be done, posting solves specs and trouts, and even the lurkers are part of the team.

I'm just looking for a game that would bring back that collective feeling I haven't had since Mu.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:32 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
chippy
Entrenched


Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 789
Location: Leeds, UK

 		Although I would love to write a few hundred words or more (you all are more eloquent than I), I would like to expand on Magesteff's comments and add to the discussion by suggesting another idea/label/box/dimension - Geography.

This is how an ARG effects, is affected by and interacts with the spatial world around us.

For example some factors could be: terms and conditions specifying certain restrictions based on residence. Is it specifically aimed at a certain area, campus, city, country, lifestyle? Is there a localised community of players that play the ARG? The language of the ARG - (I would love to see a multi-lingual game). Where are any live interactions taking place? Phone numbers (international, national, local)? How important are timezones and seasons? Then there is where the alternate reality aka story is set.

In short the geographical component is how this mainly online genre interfaces with the world.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:31 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
chippy wrote:
Although I would love to write a few hundred words or more (you all are more eloquent than I), I would like to expand on Magesteff's comments and add to the discussion by suggesting another idea/label/box/dimension - Geography.

This is how an ARG effects, is affected by and interacts with the spatial world around us.

For example some factors could be: terms and conditions specifying certain restrictions based on residence. Is it specifically aimed at a certain area, campus, city, country, lifestyle? Is there a localised community of players that play the ARG? The language of the ARG - (I would love to see a multi-lingual game). Where are any live interactions taking place? Phone numbers (international, national, local)? How important are timezones and seasons? Then there is where the alternate reality aka story is set.

In short the geographical component is how this mainly online genre interfaces with the world.


Believe me if my spanish (or babelfish's Wink ) had been better, there were a few international players it would have been fun to continue to converse with in another language. Geography is one of the difficult areas to manage. In Orbital Colony we tryed to get at leat 3 places, with one or more outside the Norther American continent. It was darned hard, not because we didn't think about it, but because by the time you involve a player as BTS in a geographic area that has very few LOCAL (i.e. a drive of no more than an hour one way) people, you run into the problem of having a drop point, but no one else close enough to pick it up. We were lucky we had the players to pick up the drops in Melbourne (Australia) and Bristol (UK), but what if we had tryied to place one in Lisbon (Spain) or Seoul (S. Korea) or Tierra del Fuego (southern tip of South America)... We know people in pokets of players in the UK and parts of the US and Canada who would be more than willing to help us with a blind drop, but what about places where we only have one player in a 500 mile area?

To some extent the players also define the geography the PMs have available to work with, and is not just set by the PM alone.

(And Chippy, I still would have loved it if you had said hello and let me give you the survey! Very Happy )
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:46 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

 		From elsewhere:

DigitalDWR wrote:
http://www.whatarethe3things.com/
I Thought i would post this thing. It looks and feels like an ARG. Using Real life bill boards to adverrtise a website with a cryptic message, and then this website which is obviously covert in its meaning. Hope some one can figure it out.


I've been waiting for one of these things to pop up (and they do every week) to cross reference here and say "No, it is NOT an ARG because:"

This one is not an ARG because it does not have a storyline. While there is a small challenge and a level of immersion, it does not contain all the elements of the ARGspectrum.

I don't want to say "It's not an ARG just because we say so". This little project is good because it creates a valid way to do so. Just a little nudge to get cather back to work on this Wink.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:26 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		This all sounds very smart to me. I think I could use a simple summary though because I am not quite following it all.

This is what I get:

1. We are identifying quantifiable characteristics of games that we generally agree are ARGs.

2. We then assess those quantifiable characteristics of games (presumably those we consider to be ARGs and those we don't) based on our individual experiences of those games using a survey (which will be developed later.)

3. (here is where I get a bit lost) We decide what those quantitative characteristics mean in terms of gamespace? We use the chart to decide whether a new game is an ARG? We can then use this as a tool to objectively evaluate games? We can set some constraints so that we have a common definition of what an ARG is? And then we can share that definition with the world? Or all or some of the above? Or something else entirely?

I suppose the idea is to be expansive enough to not inadvertently exclude new things but exclusive enough to sort out things like the game kingdom of loathing? And possibly exact enough to exclude gAIMs? I am not sure what the characteristics of gAIM is or why it isn't an ARG - but maybe that is the purpose of the project

So, yeah, I am a bit lost.
_________________
I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:36 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
rose wrote:
This all sounds very smart to me. I think I could use a simple summary though because I am not quite following it all.

This is what I get:

1. We are identifying quantifiable characteristics of games that we generally agree are ARGs.


Yes. Some "trailheads" are just for interesting sites, which while not really a game, are interesting. Other things, like Jaded Media eXperience have puzzle trails, they don't have a story behind them.

Quote:

2. We then assess those quantifiable characteristics of games (presumably those we consider to be ARGs and those we don't) based on our individual experiences of those games using a survey (which will be developed later.)


Something that we can use to define which area of the SPECTRUM of ARGish space a game may fall along, as some players prefer more of one thing and less of another...


Quote:

3. (here is where I get a bit lost) We decide what those quantitative characteristics mean in terms of gamespace? We use the chart to decide whether a new game is an ARG? We can then use this as a tool to objectively evaluate games? We can set some constraints so that we have a common definition of what an ARG is? And then we can share that definition with the world? Or all or some of the above? Or something else entirely?


Not so much setting a constraint as defining the continuum. Some games are static puzzle trails while others are heavy into player input and interaction, while others involve more making you think about philisophical things.

Some player prefer heavy on the puzzle trails and less direct input on game outcome, while others want to have some input into the game dynamic. Since it involves more than the "static vs. dynamic" line, we are attempting to come up with several axis to develop a diagram of sorts. The current debate is on which qualities we can argree on for the axis - the current breakdown consists of:

1. Puzzle and Challenges
2. Story Progression and Timeline (Fictional Narrative)
3. Interaction with Characters (the illusion of affecting the storyline)
4. Forensics (archaeology, detective work, connecting the dots, research)
5. Live events and physical objects
6. Believability (Suspension of disbelief, fullness of the Alternate World, background richeness)

Quote:

I suppose the idea is to be expansive enough to not inadvertently exclude new things but exclusive enough to sort out things like the game kingdom of loathing? And possibly exact enough to exclude gAIMs? I am not sure what the characteristics of gAIM is or why it isn't an ARG - but maybe that is the purpose of the project

So, yeah, I am a bit lost.


Well, some things like Kingdom of Loathing and Neopets we pretty much agree are not ARGs, and we have MUD and MMO, which for the most part are standard RPG fare, but may include some ARG elements (interations, and challenges).

If we can have a system in place it might make it easier for new players to learn how to distingush the simply interesting sites, puzzle trails and IM conversations for a fully realized ARGs. Or at least give us some tools to use to say where on the spectrum it falls.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:28 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
MageSteff wrote:

1. Puzzle and Challenges
2. Story Progression and Timeline (Fictional Narrative)
3. Interaction with Characters (the illusion of affecting the storyline)
4. Forensics (archaeology, detective work, connecting the dots, research)
5. Live events and physical objects
6. Believability (Suspension of disbelief, fullness of the Alternate World, background richeness)


Really interesting stuff in this thread (why does the good Meta always go on when I'm absent!) I worry, though, that some of these things are flavors rather than scales. Mind if I take a stab at redux?

It seems to me that #1 and #4 and #5 are closely related: a key ARG concept is "give the audience something to do" and that is what separates it from other forms of narrative (as one key difference among several.) That could be puzzles or researching or gathering or fetching or calling or answering or any other activity, in some mix, and potentially still be an ARG (detect a note of a question in the following period). Call it "activity".

Similarly, #2 and #3 and #6 speak to the nature of narrative (and one could argue that #6 might be generic to good narrative in general, rather than "believable" being something that differentiates an ARG from the merely ARGish.) Call it "immersion".

I'm grappling about trying to figure out how to describe the other big pillar that seems missing to me that's really unique about ARGs -- that it is a "performing art" instead of a "recorded art". That's something that's not true about all games (Everquest is essentially "recorded art pushed to everyone) nor is it true about all narratives (say, a movie versus a play versus a live performance of a play.)

Assumption for testing: one aspect that makes an ARG unique from the other artforms clustered around it is that "any two performances" from the same core "script" of the ARG would come out totally different.

I think that's part of what Rose was trying to capture in the other thread about non-linear/linear/multi-linear as well: her favorite examples she cites are actually of "emergent narrative" which different even than those other three types. That emergence is part of what I think is pretty unique about ARGs, even in a purely online arena -- which really intertwines with all six of those prior elements (either as pieces that produce emergence or how emergence folds into story.)

Fascinating stuff.

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:04 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
FLmutant wrote:
I'm grappling about trying to figure out how to describe the other big pillar that seems missing to me that's really unique about ARGs -- that it is a "performing art" instead of a "recorded art". That's something that's not true about all games (Everquest is essentially "recorded art pushed to everyone) nor is it true about all narratives (say, a movie versus a play versus a live performance of a play.).



I think you are speaking to the fact that the game is a "one time event" rather than an ongoing story (Everquest, MUDS, MMRPG) a story that can be repeated with no change in the content (Video games, 'click through' games like Kingdom of Loathing).

Would games such as ILB and LCP have the same impact if we were to run them again some day? No, because part of the appeal was the thrill of discovery of something "different and unique." The flash gatherings at Payphones wouldn't have the same impact the second time arou8nd because people had already gone there and done that and discovered the keys to it.

so maybe to the other 6 we should add a 7th dimension:

7. Unique one time experience that does not easily lend itself to repetition of the same "presentation."

presentation to be defined as the story arc from a single game. i.e. Art of the Heist, Where is Benjamin Stove?, Chasing the Wish, Orbital Colony, Ares Station. While there may be follow up presentations in the same background universe, the original story line is not repeated to a new audience.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:13 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
MageSteff wrote:

Would games such as ILB and LCP have the same impact if we were to run them again some day? No, because part of the appeal was the thrill of discovery of something "different and unique." The flash gatherings at Payphones wouldn't have the same impact the second time arou8nd because people had already gone there and done that and discovered the keys to it.

so maybe to the other 6 we should add a 7th dimension:

7. Unique one time experience that does not easily lend itself to repetition of the same "presentation."

presentation to be defined as the story arc from a single game. i.e. Art of the Heist, Where is Benjamin Stove?, Chasing the Wish, Orbital Colony, Ares Station. While there may be follow up presentations in the same background universe, the original story line is not repeated to a new audience.


I'm not sure why we need to add a 7th dimension, especially not this one. I do think that ARGs can be replayable. Heck, it's been done.

Would they have the same impact? Um, just because things are replayable does not mean that they have to be played by the same audience both times, but, even so, have you ever gone to the same play twice? You know the story and the characters and the twists, but it was probably still worth the time you put into it. And, if it's a fairly loose play with some improv going on, all the cooler to see what they do with it the second time around.

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:57 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
imbri wrote:

Would they have the same impact? Um, just because things are replayable does not mean that they have to be played by the same audience both times, but, even so, have you ever gone to the same play twice? You know the story and the characters and the twists, but it was probably still worth the time you put into it. And, if it's a fairly loose play with some improv going on, all the cooler to see what they do with it the second time around.


I think you're arguing for my point -- to me, it's not that they one-time and never repeatable, so much as no two performances of the play will be exactly the same (even with the same cast on consecutive nights). Even having read Shakespeare isn't the same as seeing "Twelfth Night" (and no two productions of that play are ever exactly the same.)

Everyone who reads "Twelfth Night" on the printed page, though, has essentially the same experience no matter when they read it: it's a "documentary artifact" of a live experience (just as reading an ARG after it is completed would be.)

Imbri, even when you do training ARGs with people, they never come out exactly the same when done with two groups, right? Doesn't that capture some kind of "performance aesthetic" that makes them different? Maybe I think of you as a performer more than you do?


B.

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:31 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
FLmutant wrote:


I think you're arguing for my point -- to me, it's not that they one-time and never repeatable, so much as no two performances of the play will be exactly the same (even with the same cast on consecutive nights). Even having read Shakespeare isn't the same as seeing "Twelfth Night" (and no two productions of that play are ever exactly the same.)


Exactly. The "Shakespear in the Park" group here has done a lot of different things with the plays. Still the same words, but they have given the costuming and the set design a tweak. One year the "guards" were dressed as Bikers (think Leather jackets and chains) complete with the "attitude" and the sets are very minimal scafolding with very little dressing (backdrops, furniture) on it other than the props the actors carry with them. It is affected by weather, by the power generators (which can be heard roaring no matter where you sit and if they give out the set would be dark). It isn't the same as one I might see at the Kravis Center (for one, the Kravis Center would be air conditioned and I wouldn't have to bring my own chair) which would use a period style of dress and attitude, and have backdrops and set props for the scenes.

Both may be very good presentations, but not equivalent presentations of the Bard. Could the "Park" troupe do their version in the Kravis Center? Sure, but the sound of the generators would either be missing or would be echoing inside the hall and change the preception of it. Same information... not the same presentation.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:07 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Rolerbe
Unfettered


Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 330
Location: North America

 		I've often wondered what the response would be to a "replay", particularly if one approached the monetization bit analogous to buying a paperback novel -- i.e. a one time charge of say 6 or 7 bucks for access. Even though you can pass a book around, the author (and publisher) get revenue from the fact that this is the exception. Good books 'build' through word of mouth.

Would a great ARG 'build' in replay based on buzz from the first round players? Would it be mostly new players in the second round? Would old 'replayers' be too much of a spoiler (given that the specific puzzles/solutions would have to change)?

Practical testing awaits, but what do you think? Possible or improbable for a replay to succeed? Confused
_________________
Failure isn't the worst thing in the world. Repeatedly trying really, really hard, then failing, now that's something.

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 12:59 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		I think that games could be replayed in various ways, assuming the desire and wherewithal on the part of the creator-puppetmasters to do so. I would gladly replay every second of the Beast if I had a chance, even though I have read the trail and am surrounded by people who played it the first time through. I would play Lockjaw and Mu and Urban Hunt. And Chasing the Wish, though there is a sequel to that starting soon!

Given the number of sequels that pop up after a game, it seems likely that the player demand would be there after a reasonable time elapses, but it seems unlikely that the PMs would be motivated to do any of those games again.
_________________
I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 1:24 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
FLmutant wrote:
I think you're arguing for my point --


To a degree, yes I am. However, there were bits beyond what you said that I disagree with.

MageSteff wrote:
While there may be follow up presentations in the same background universe, the original story line is not repeated to a new audience.


This can be and has been done in the ARG arena. ReGenesis is designed so that it can be repeated as the television show is. The link I pointed to earlier was the ARGN announcement of their first season replay for the Global audience. Slightly different in nature, my corporate training games are designed on a modular basis, though we've also done a straight and exact replay with no change in the assets (outside of variables which change automagically - all controlled through the early version of what we called ARGitect).

FLmutant wrote:
Imbri, even when you do training ARGs with people, they never come out exactly the same when done with two groups, right? Doesn't that capture some kind of "performance aesthetic" that makes them different? Maybe I think of you as a performer more than you do?

I think you do Wink

And, you're right, the games never come out *exactly* the same. Even when the content is the same. However, I bet that they're more similar than you would think. And, yes, that's part of the "performance aesthetic" that I think comes with anything that is played out live in front of and with an audience.

So, anyway, yes, I do agree with you and, to a point, I'm arguing your case. I just don't believe with the idea that followed. The idea that ARGs are limited to one-time play. It just happens that's the way that most have occurred and for good reason - they've been ad campaigns and such that have not meant to be repeated. They have been designed as one time performances. But, just because that's the way that they have been designed to run does not mean that they ARGs in general have to be designed in that manner. I feel that adding that as a "7th dimension" unfairly limits the genre, especially because there have been examples that run completely counter to that dimension, including one that has run in the broader public space.

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 2:38 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		But how can one replay an ARG if the puzzles & mysteries have already been solved the first time around?
_________________
'squeek'
r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 7:04 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 2 of 3 [45 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group