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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Linear? Non-linear? Multi-linear?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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European Chris
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 		Linear? Non-linear? Multi-linear?
rose wrote:
Quick definition:

A non-linear narrative that is told through the interaction of players with the story on-line and in the "real" world..


It doesn't have to be non-linear.



note: split from the Short definition of ARG thread. -imbri
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:30 am
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colin
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European Chris wrote:
rose wrote:
Quick definition:

A non-linear narrative that is told through the interaction of players with the story on-line and in the "real" world..


It doesn't have to be non-linear.

pretty much sums up the current 'problem'. It's doesn't have to be anything (it would wreck creativity) but it has to be everything (otherwise it's not an ARG)

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:08 am
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Puppy_Zwolle
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colin wrote:
European Chris wrote:
rose wrote:
A non-linear narrative
doesn't have to be non-linear.

pretty much sums up the current 'problem'.

The term 'turnbased' springs to mind. Player(s) make a move, if it is the/a 'right' one the PM-takes his turn, making new 'options' available to the player(s). This turn can be a conversation but in the end leaves the player to do something.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:02 pm
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MageSteff
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Puppy_Zwolle wrote:
colin wrote:
European Chris wrote:
rose wrote:
A non-linear narrative
doesn't have to be non-linear.

pretty much sums up the current 'problem'.

The term 'turnbased' springs to mind. Player(s) make a move, if it is the/a 'right' one the PM-takes his turn, making new 'options' available to the player(s). This turn can be a conversation but in the end leaves the player to do something.


Not necessarily. The PM may make several "moves" which may or may not require player input or direct reaction. The Players may react in ways or directions that are not in the scope of the story arc.

Players and Characters, may carry out conversations that have nothing to do with the game directly. I liked (as a PM) being able to have the character become "friends" with players and be able to talk about nothing in particular, small talk way. That may not be the case for every PM or every game, but it is an option that lends itself to the TINAG feel.


Now with improved vertigo inducing quotes!
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:52 pm
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imbriModerator
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European Chris wrote:
rose wrote:
Quick definition:

A non-linear narrative that is told through the interaction of players with the story on-line and in the "real" world..


It doesn't have to be non-linear.


And, really, I'd argue that a majority of ARGs utilize more linear storytelling than non-linear storytelling. A story that is told through clues or contains puzzle or interaction is not necessarily a non-linear story. I'm not saying that's what Rose was implying, but I've seen several make that assumption before.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:02 pm
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rose
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 		imbri wrote:

Quote:
And, really, I'd argue that a majority of ARGs utilize more linear storytelling than non-linear storytelling. A story that is told through clues or contains puzzle or interaction is not necessarily a non-linear story. I'm not saying that's what Rose was implying, but I've seen several make that assumption before.



Now, this is very interesting to me. I was thinking of ARGs as being non-linear because (usually) they are told from multiple viewpoints simultaneously.

I think there are other non-linear aspects due to the ability of a player to enter the story at different points and because the events don't always unfold in a linear cause-effect or chronological order. But I am not at all an expert on this and the definitions seem to be vague. It is fun stuff to read about, think about and discuss. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:12 am
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CreativeEmbassy
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rose wrote:
imbri wrote:

Quote:
And, really, I'd argue that a majority of ARGs utilize more linear storytelling than non-linear storytelling. A story that is told through clues or contains puzzle or interaction is not necessarily a non-linear story. I'm not saying that's what Rose was implying, but I've seen several make that assumption before.



Now, this is very interesting to me. I was thinking of ARGs as being non-linear because (usually) they are told from multiple viewpoints simultaneously.

I think there are other non-linear aspects due to the ability of a player to enter the story at different points and because the events don't always unfold in a linear cause-effect or chronological order. But I am not at all an expert on this and the definitions seem to be vague. It is fun stuff to read about, think about and discuss. Smile


I can see both of your points. Usually when I think of linear storytelling, I think of movies or books, where the literature has a clear beginning where the story begins, and a point where the story ends, a denoument. Now, most of the ARGs that I've seen usually place you in the middle of the story, so you have to figure out the back story until that point, and then continue on with the line or story forward. This is still linear storytelling.

I think the confusion comes where you see different parts of the line at different times, for example, Quentin Taratino's movies where he takes you to different parts of the story at different times. Or, the TV show LOST, where you are continually taken to flashbacks where you can see earlier parts of the line.

Now, non-linear storytelling include the Choose Your Own Adventure series of books, where you chose your line through the story. ARGs CAN be non-linear, if they have multiple endings the players can "choose" from. Better yet, if there are several ways the story can go at different points, like when some rat bastard gives away crucial info to a key character, then the story IS non linear, because players, in essence, changed the line.

OK, I didn't mean to sound so authorative in this post heh. Just my thoughts. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:11 am
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catherwood
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CreativeEmbassy wrote:
Usually when I think of linear storytelling, I think of movies or books, where the literature has a clear beginning where the story begins, and a point where the story ends, a denoument. Now, most of the ARGs that I've seen usually place you in the middle of the story, so you have to figure out the back story until that point, and then continue on with the line or story forward. This is still linear storytelling....

Then we do have a problem with having no common language for these things, if we cannot even agree on what "linear" means. To me, the TV show "Lost" is non-linear storytelling. Their histories and current events may be linear, but they are presented out of order rather than in sequence. If you drew a line thru the points on their timeline versus the story teller's order, it would not be a straight line, and thus non-linear.

CreativeEmbassy wrote:
Now, non-linear storytelling include the Choose Your Own Adventure series of books, where you chose your line through the story....

Beyond being non-linear, i would call that format "multi-linear". The reader is not being led along a single series of information (whether in chronological sequence or not), but given a menu of options, some of which will be skipped entirely. The line chosen by any particular reader could be either linear or non-linear, but is still only one of many possibilities. Perhaps that is not even story-telling proper, if the reader is in control of the narrative.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:23 pm
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imbriModerator
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 		I could be way off on all of this, but my thoughts on multi-linear narratives are slightly different from a choose your own adventure - which I would classify as non-linear.

Multi-linear suggests the same story either told from multiple points of view, such as 4 characters all present at the same event telling their own stories of that event and, yet, with an overall story arc. A very bad example would be something like the Breakfast Club if their individual stories had been a bit more segregated. Or, perhaps, the same story repeated differently as is done in Groundhog Day. There's still a linearity about it all, but more than one line that's followed.

A non-linear story would be something more along the lines of Memento or, in book form, House of Leaves. And, I would place the CYOA series of books in this as well. Actually, the CYOA books I would call a branching narrative, but I think of branching narratives as non-linear because, well, they branch instead of following a line Smile

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:59 am
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Puppy_Zwolle
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 		Like what happend to the original thread. It became multi-linear.

Love the word. Fits pretty good too.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:16 pm
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Dionysus
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MageSteff wrote:

Players and Characters, may carry out conversations that have nothing to do with the game directly. I liked (as a PM) being able to have the character become "friends" with players and be able to talk about nothing in particular, small talk way. That may not be the case for every PM or every game, but it is an option that lends itself to the TINAG feel.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:54 am
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FLmutant
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 		Part of what Rose was talking about in the thread that lead to this one was emergent narrative -- story twists or elements that happen without formal authorship (like Lou in the porta-pottie.) Which I think is pretty much always linear from an audience's perspective (well, what is linear in the age of the random-access Web, but whatever.)

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:07 pm
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rose
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 		Maybe "linear" refers to the overall structure of the game? That fact that 'A' happens and then 'B' happens and that order doesn't change. So there is cause-effect order in the way the game is played.

Maybe the way to think of ARGs is as a multi-linear narrative within an overall linear structure?

I am still learning how these terms are supposed to be used. I haven't found clear hard and fast definitions among academics either! Although everyone seems pretty sure what "linear" means. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:54 pm
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MageSteff
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rose wrote:
Maybe "linear" refers to the overall structure of the game? That fact that 'A' happens and then 'B' happens and that order doesn't change. So there is cause-effect order in the way the game is played.

Maybe the way to think of ARGs is as a multi-linear narrative within an overall linear structure?

I am still learning how these terms are supposed to be used. I haven't found clear hard and fast definitions among academics either! Although everyone seems pretty sure what "linear" means. Wink


I would say the story arc (rather than individual parts of the story) stays consistent no matter what twists and directions the players may implement - back to the "choose your own adventure analogy- you are lead back to some events no matter which direction you go, because they are an integral part of the story and there just is no avoiding them no matter which direction you go.
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:16 pm
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FLmutant
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MageSteff wrote:

I would say the story arc (rather than individual parts of the story) stays consistent no matter what twists and directions the players may implement - back to the "choose your own adventure analogy- you are lead back to some events no matter which direction you go, because they are an integral part of the story and there just is no avoiding them no matter which direction you go.


Unavoidable story elements don't mean it has to be reduced to "choose your own adventure" -- there are "limits to the ride," yes. But story arch isn't always an off-limit change, even in midstream. The villian in AotH got rewritten midway through based upon player choices (and production accidents.) Whole new characters (like "Mom") and sub-threads to make them meaningful happened in WIBS based upon audience dynamics and responses. That's all story arch stuff separate from the emergent narrative pieces (like tin foil baseball cap videos and people hiding in porta-potties) -- it's not improv, but it's not on rails either. It's being written as it deploys, which means you can improve it along the way if you give yourself the freedom to.

That doesn't mean all ARGs are that way, mind you. Urns was completely on rails (in part because it had to be translated into 7 languages) for example, except for who would end up solving what how: plot was pretty invarient, people still think of it as an ARG.

PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:49 am
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