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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
TINAG/TIAG a contradiction in terms ?
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 		Re: A Concrete Example?
addlepated wrote:
cabalagent23 wrote:
Anyway, a few of the WIBS players were upset with me that I posted the puzzle materials on the site (while others were very happy about it, go figure), saying to me that it ruined the TINAG curtain for them.

Wow, that's really interesting. I was wondering what happened to the rest of the puzzle posts. I wonder if the people who got upset would also be the type not to watch the "Making of" featurettes on a DVD. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, not to want to know the BTS stories. Quite the contrary - people who can immerse themselves into another world like that are a rare breed.

I'm kind of the different end of the spectrum. Much like a monkey disassembling a typewriter, I like to dissect and find out trivia and look up backstage information and poke and prod at things. In some ways this really does ruin the magic for me. In fact, there have been several times when I've turned to the last page of the mystery novel and found out the ending and then kicked myself for days afterwards.


I guess I would be the third type of player, for whom disassembly does not dull the luster of a thing. I can read a book and get to the end, then go back and enjoy re-reading it (if it is well written) and look for the things I missed the first time - those little shades of character and clues that I either missed giving any weight to early on, or just took as part of the world of the story with no importance.

I have read and re-read the Chronicles of Narnia about 5 or 6 times and still find connections I failed to get the first few times through.

I like learning how the puzzles work, because I am just so darned bad at solving any of them. And it doesn't seem to impact my suspension of disbelief.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:52 pm
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Ciaran_H
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Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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 		Re: A Concrete Example?
What MageSteff just said is exactly how I feel about it. Very Happy

PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2006 10:21 pm
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konamouse
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 		I agree - I'm that type of person also. I can get immersed in the game universe, playing my 'role' and 'living' the alternate reality. But then I can also keep myself aware of the 'game' part.

And when it is over, and there is an offer to peek behind the curtain, I love finding out the who, what, where and when. Who played what character? What did I miss? Where did I turn the wrong way (you know, that "du'h" moment)? And when did I succeed?

Makes me a better player to learn more tricks of the trade.
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am
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Kristofski
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 9

 		I have been reading this thread with interest, and for those people interested in making a game that truly blurs the boundries of game, I know of a couple of things you might be interested in. The first is at www.firstfreebus.co.uk, which is a project by a group in Bristol. They are prostesting about First, a large bus company in the UK, monopolising the Bristol bus service and putting the prices up extortionally. What they are doing is quite redicuous, but lots of people thought their site was a real part of First, and they even got their scheme announced on local radio as if it was a real First project (visit the site to see what they were doing, the video especially is pretty damn funny). I know it's not actually a game at all, but it certainly shows how people can be fooled into thinking something is real by use of the internet and real life events.
The second one, which is a game, is Troy at http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/dl.php?id=112423&type=zip.
If I tell you too much about the game I would spoil it, but I will say that quite a few people (me included) played about for a while before we realised we were acually playing the game.

I know neither of these constitue ARGs in the traditional sense, but I don't see why we have to limit ourselves so much, and box things in, if we can look to other ways to have creative fun.

I should probably have waited for a time when it wasn't the middle of the night to write things.

kristofski x

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 8:38 pm
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colin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2003
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Location: Australia
Kristofski wrote:
...got their scheme announced on local radio as if it was a real First project (visit the site to see what they were doing, the video especially is pretty damn funny). I know it's not actually a game at all, but it certainly shows how people can be fooled into thinking something is real by use of the internet and real life events...

I know neither of these constitue ARGs in the traditional sense, but I don't see why we have to limit ourselves so much, and box things in, if we can look to other ways to have creative fun.

I think this is pretty clear, your trying to scam people. This is not a Good Thing. This is not a New Thing. This doesn't lead to the enjoyment of the game. It appears that you are trying to One Up your players, boosting you ego in the process.

For me this isn't about boxing the genre. It's about what Benifits you think the players get out of it, to me the benifits are dubious at best.

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 10:37 pm
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Kristofski
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
colin wrote:

I think this is pretty clear, your trying to scam people. This is not a Good Thing. This is not a New Thing. This doesn't lead to the enjoyment of the game. It appears that you are trying to One Up your players, boosting you ego in the process.

For me this isn't about boxing the genre. It's about what Benifits you think the players get out of it, to me the benifits are dubious at best.

Cambridge Dictionary wrote:
scam
noun [C] INFORMAL
an illegal plan for making money


They were never trying to scam people, they weren't trying to get money, which is the purpose of a scam. if anything it was a kind of protest performance art. And, from what I read, when the people realised that it wasn't from First, most people thought what they were doing was really great and were completly behind them. I don't see where you get "scam" from that project. Though if you could enlighten me that would be great.

And when I talked about not boxing things in, I was partly refering to the fact that what I was talking about were not actuall args, and also to the "defining args" thread that has been happening. I was anticipating cries of "but that's not an ARG!" or something. I was mearly pointing out that if people really wanted to blur the boundries of reality and fiction they might have to step outside the boundaries of what would normally be considerd an ARG.
Kristofski x

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:50 am
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colin
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Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia
Kristofski wrote:
Cambridge Dictionary wrote:
scam
noun [C] INFORMAL
an illegal plan for making money


They were never trying to scam people, they weren't trying to get money, which is the purpose of a scam. if anything it was a kind of protest performance art. And, from what I read, when the people realised that it wasn't from First, most people thought what they were doing was really great and were completly behind them. I don't see where you get "scam" from that project. Though if you could enlighten me that would be great.
Sorry I didn't like the sentence "I think this is pretty clear, your trying to confidence trick people." It didn't read very well. You'll notice I linked 'scam' to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick
which says:
Quote:
A confidence trick, confidence game, also known as a con, scam, grift or flim flam, is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the "mark") usually with the goal of financial or other gain.
(emphasis mine) so by the definition I was going by, which I provided reference for, a scam is usually about money. In my initial post I suggested that ego was sought instead of cash. So just to make it clearer; The reason you are doing this is to boost your own Ego, at the detriment of the players.

Maybe the Cambridge Dictionary is your bestest friend or something, but I linked to my definition, I'm not sure what I should do to make it clearer.

My opinion is just that. Feel free to disagree, feel free to post something that contradicts it. Don't argue semantics when I linked to the definition, that's just stupid.

As far as most people being behind the First...trick(?). I'm not sure you can establish causality on that. There was likely already a public opinion on the company. Your enemies enemies are your friends.

There are other examples of this type of thing, see the yes men<-link. I'm sure there is heaps of anti-corporate types who love what these guys do. And on the flip side, the coporations likely hate it. Which side would your players be on? Seems to me that they are on the corporate side, as the ones being fooled, (imo) this doesn't add anything to the player experience.

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:47 am
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Kristofski
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
colin wrote:

Quote:
A confidence trick, confidence game, also known as a con, scam, grift or flim flam, is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the "mark") usually with the goal of financial or other gain.
(emphasis mine) so by the definition I was going by, which I provided reference for, a scam is usually about money. In my initial post I suggested that ego was sought instead of cash. So just to make it clearer; The reason you are doing this is to boost your own Ego, at the detriment of the players.


I'm sorry, I'm terribly confused. How am I trying to confidence trick people? I saw on this thread that people were interested in ways to create a full TINAG experience and linked to a few places that had done this sort of thing and might be of interest to them, and to show people that this could be done without breaking any laws or having restraining orders taken out on them.
colin wrote:

Maybe the Cambridge Dictionary is your bestest friend or something, but I linked to my definition, I'm not sure what I should do to make it clearer.



The reason I linked the dictionary is because you specifically used the word "scam", and I couldn't see by any stretch of the imagination how the things I linked to could be described as scams, even with the wikipedia article. Plus it helps to get different sources on definitions. There's no need to get angry about it.

Your posts seem unesecarily attacking considering I was just linking to a few places I thought might interest people...

Kristofski

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:55 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial
Kristofski wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm terribly confused. How am I trying to confidence trick people? I saw on this thread that people were interested in ways to create a full TINAG experience and linked to a few places that had done this sort of thing and might be of interest to them, and to show people that this could be done without breaking any laws or having restraining orders taken out on them.


The difference, in the case of the bus protestors, is that it isn't a game but a PROTEST. There is nothing wrong with protesting injustice, but... it isn't a "game." That sort of thing belongs in various and sundry, and not as an example of a game that found the right balance of TINAG/TIAG. Since the bus protestors WERE trying to intentionally fool people into thinking that the Protest group WAS part of the bus company, I do agree with Colin, they were SCAMMING people. In that situation, by not making their association clear, they were intentionally misleading the public. Funny? In a malicious way, sure. Kinda like how everyone slows down to look at a big accident on a major highway.

As for Troy... the other game you mentioned... I don't understand how you can play a game before you realize it is a game... Actually, it is just a point and click thing. A very interesting one to be sure, and very thought provoking. A good and interesting discussion starter. But the graphics do are not exactly something that generates the feeling of "This is not a game." Now expand the story to include the game developer and the changes his game makes to society, now you have an ARG in the making.

As far as Colin's reaction to your message... well... He could have worded his response a bit differently so that it didn't sound like a personal attack. However, let me also say that because you have very few posts here on this board, I don't know who you are. I'm certain you could be a very nice person, but you could also be one of those many spammers I have seen who comes in and posts links to places you want to advertize. I hope you are someone who wants to be a vital part of this community and not a spammer Wink
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:59 am
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Kristofski
Greenhorn

Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
MageSteff wrote:


The difference, in the case of the bus protestors, is that it isn't a game but a PROTEST. There is nothing wrong with protesting injustice, but... it isn't a "game."

That's why I said that thing about boradening horizons and so forth... Even though it's not a game, people who are interested in ways in which one can create true TINAG experiances might have found it interesting as something that had already been. Also, the idea of what is and is not a game could get blurred, as in the cross-over between true game with puzzles ect and interactive narrative-type thing.
Also, he was very specifically saying that I was doing a scam; not that I was linking to a scam or the things I was talking about were scams,but that I was scamming. I was very confused by this.

MageSteff wrote:
As for Troy... the other game you mentioned... I don't understand how you can play a game before you realize it is a game... Actually, it is just a point and click thing.


I think you may be thinking of a different Troy... this one was made as part of the Experimental Gameplay Project, and is definitely not a point and click thingy. (Spoilers coming up...) Basically, you download the zip folder of the game, which contains an url which, supposedly, is to download the game. But when you get there you get a 404. Though there is a link to the parent directory. On exploring that, through looking at what look like personal photos and reading emails, you manage to find various passwords to email accounts and filesharing things, and after going through different things you finally get to download and play Troy.exe.
Many people who's comments I have read on it said that they caught themselves going through the parent folder and looking at files before realiseing that was part of the game, and I did pretty much the same thing. It was a bit daunting at first, trying to work out if what I was doing was actually part of an experimental game or just me being nosey.

MageSteff wrote:
et me also say that because you have very few posts here on this board, I don't know who you are. I'm certain you could be a very nice person, but you could also be one of those many spammers I have seen who comes in and posts links to places you want to advertize. I hope you are someone who wants to be a vital part of this community and not a spammer Wink


Well, I guess I did jump in a bit... I have posted a few times, but I have a habit of jumping into forums about things that interest me without really thinking that maybe I should let people get to know me a bit first. Though I did think it was a little harsh to say to someone "you're running a scam!" when they had just posted a comment in a discussion. So, hello:). Besides, if I was spamming, I think I didn't choose very good subjects... a free game and some stuff that's happening in Bristol, both things I have absolutely nothing to do with!
As for wanting to be a vital part of the community, well, though I seem to be very bad at ever catching games, and I'm shit at following things through, I am very interested in ARGs and plan to reference them heavily when I write my dissertation next year. It's going to be about ways in which art has tried to represent reality. Hence the interest in this subject:)

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:22 pm
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buff
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Joined: 23 Sep 2003
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 		Well.

Uhhmmm.

Actually, I disagree.
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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:43 pm
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Kristofski
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Joined: 09 Feb 2006
Posts: 9
buff wrote:
Well.

Uhhmmm.

Actually, I disagree.

With what?

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:57 pm
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