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Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » GAME: PoTC and Volvo

[LOCKED] [DISCUSSION][QUESTIONS] On the game's rules and cheating

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tpublic
Boot

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 36
Location: US

Re: if it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating

rose wrote:

If Volvo decides to pick three finalists from a country with a larger population than others, or to require that a finalist have a passport, US Driver's License, Proof of Insurance and be able to pay certain costs, or to disqualify a finalist because they believe the Finalist uses profanity - that is just the way it is. They get to decide how they want to award the prize. It is their contest.

Aww sh*t. I didn't see that f#ck%ng part. I guess I'm out. Laughing

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:51 am

Phaedra
Lurker v2.0

Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Re: if it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating

dhoule wrote:

rose wrote:

If the lengthy and comprehensive rules don't prohibit it, it isn't cheating. It may seem unfair and cause personal sorrow and woe, but it isn't cheating.

Not true. There isn't anything in their rules about breaking into the game designer's offices and stealing files either. Just because every possible way to cheat isn't listed doesn't mean anything goes. And just because you don't think it's cheating doesn't make it "okay." That's the same mentality that drives the whole music downloading community... if it's out there somewhere for me to grab then it's not stealing. Wrong.

All right. If it's not in the rules and it doesn't break any law it's not cheating. I think Rose probably assumed that was a given, as I did. As most people probably did.

A little context: we're an Alternate Reality Game community. ARGs are a fairly new gametype, so there aren't a lot of rules, and what constitutes acceptable gameplay is still under debate. This is not an ARG, obviously, but the same generally goes for puzzle trails.

Generally speaking, there are some things it's not considered "polite," or "sporting" to do, but even that is (to quote Pirates of the Caribbean) more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. See, for example, discussions about the ethics of hacking versus brute force in an ARG. Those ethics (in the sense of what the game designers feel is "fair") are often ambiguous: in the Beast, which is generally considered to be the first ARG, there was an email address that players were supposed to break into to get information (ironically this backfired on the game designers, because the players decided it wouldn't be fair to do so -- see Jane McGonigal's paper A Real Little Game for more details).

But one of the characteristics that most of the ARGs that this community has played have had is that the game makers monitor the community and adapt. Which is why, if you read the threads I linked above, you'll note that the general consensus seemed to be that if it is possible to get the answer to a puzzle by -- for example -- decompiling a swf file, and the game designers don't want people to solve the puzzle that way, ultimately the responsibility rests with them to design their puzzles in such a way that people can't "cheat," not with the players to determine what is and isn't "fair play" (beyond the obvious things like not brute forcing or doing something illegal like breaking into offices and stealing files).

And as (I think it was you) mentioned, the game designers have changed file names and so on, so clearly they are monitoring the players to a certain extent and adapting to what players are doing. If something like decompiling the swfs is an issue, I'm sure they will alter the game's design accordingly.

dhoule wrote:

Basically I just voiced my opinion. You and others disagree with it... that's fine, there are others who do agree with me. Point is that people on this forum keep talking about "community" and "sharing of ideas" and "helping each other"... but just voice an opinion about solving puzzles using just hints, and some honesty and integrity, and just watch the forum members blast you. Nice community.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

I didn't see anything in Rose's post that came across as an "attack" or "blasting" -- quite to the contrary, I think she was trying to reassure you that it would be okay Smile

-- and as for JustAWhiner, as you'll note, I asked him to keep his side of the discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks. I assure you that the ethics of puzzle solving and fair gameplay is one that has been discussed often here, and you are certainly not the only person here who cares about "honesty and integrity."

As Rose mentioned, for most of us, this is something we do for sheer love of the game, because most ARGs do not have monetary rewards.

All of that said, while the moderators generally try to discourage personal attacks and flamewars when people disagree, we're also not going to try to stop people from disagreeing with you. If you can't tell the difference between a personal attack and polite disagreement like Rose's, you may want to concentrate on puzzle-solving and stay away from the meta debates. Smile

Which many people choose to do.

Now. Can we return this to a general discussion of rules and stop having it be a referendum on various people's ethics, niceness, consistency, or whatever?

_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:15 pm

BIGFATPARTYANIMAL
Boot

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 52
Location: BELFAST

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

dhoule wrote:

Hmmm... I don't know... maybe because cheating is wrong?

Awh! Isn't this dude much better than the rest of us! Maybe they could become president or something 1 day! LOL!

dhoule wrote:

Hardly. I asked for a hint or two when the game first started

Under ur context this is cheating!

dhoule wrote:

I'm not going to stay up late busting my butt working on puzzles if people are out there downloading answers days ahead

Ah ha! Sounds like ur cheating matey! Oh Arr!

JustAWhiner wrote:

What staggers belief is that he whines about people reverse-engineering the code when he freely admits having done the same to the SWFs, the HTML, the XML, and the Javascript files. But of course, it's different for dhoule because he's only doing it for altruistic reasons. Pull the other leg, it's wooden...lol

WELL SAID! Give the dude hand! Cheer! Cheer!

dhoule wrote:

Absolutely, no argument there, I have looked at the HTML and decompiled the SWFs. Difference is I did it to answer questions I had about the fairness of the game. I wanted to know if there was a timer that started when you played a puzzle... I wanted to know if it was easy to find riddles ahead of time, because, as I said before, if it is then I'm not going bust my butt to play the game seriously when it's so easy for so many to cheat. You doubt that I have altruistic motives... whatever... I couldn't care less what you think. I have asked for clues but never the answers, and have solved the rest honestly on my own before coming back the this forum to see how I fared against others. I can honestly say I have no guilt at all about my game playing. Can you say the same? Maybe you can. If so, good for you too.

I think some1 is telling porkies! Oh here comes the big bad wolf!

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:36 pm

ScarpeGrosse
Site Admin

Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 1678
Location: The Shiny Castle in the Sky, Full of Cotton Candy and Hazelnut Lattes

Porkies?! What the...?

Ok, honestly guys, you've been asked nicely a couple of times by the moderators here to keep the mudslinging off the forums.

Feel free to discuss the rules (in a polite and courteous manner) and even disagree with each other in terms of your interpretations of said rules (in a polite and courteous manner).

Personal insults, flamewar starting, etc., will not be tolerated and will be dealt with accordingly.

Behave yourselves.

_________________
Allow me to take off my 'assistant skirt' and put on my 'Barbara Streisand in The Prince of Tides ass-masking therapist pantsuit.'

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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:42 pm

BIGFATPARTYANIMAL
Boot

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 52
Location: BELFAST

Sorry Dude!

ScarpeGrosse wrote:

Sorry man got a we bit carried away! I just felt that the word of a certain individual was attacking every1 and didn't like it very much! I will play nice 4 a while!

By the way porkies is just an old slang word for lies!

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:50 pm

Phaedra
Lurker v2.0

Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Re: Sorry Dude!

BIGFATPARTYANIMAL wrote:

Sorry man got a we bit carried away! I just felt that the word of a certain individual was attacking every1 and didn't like it very much! I will play nice 4 a while!

If you -- or anyone else here -- feel that you are being unfairly attacked, and that the moderators/admins should be interceding, you are free to private message any of us and we will investigate the situation and, if necessary, take action.

However, please do not respond with another attack, okay?

This is a game. It is meant to be fun. If you want to have a polite discussion of rules, fine. But attacking other players, mocking them, accusing them of cheating and so forth are inconsistent with the collaborative ethic we enjoy here at Unfiction and, perhaps even more importantly, are unpleasant both for the participants and for the onlookers. Which interferes with the reason people are here in the first place, which is to have fun.

_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:54 pm

losteagle
Guest

people... we are talking about a pirate game here...I think the lack of rules and obvious need to dig for hidden clues is in itself what the game is about...who is the best pirate????? Pirates dont whine.... Twisted Evil

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:56 pm

BIGFATPARTYANIMAL
Boot

Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 52
Location: BELFAST

On guard!

losteagle wrote:

Well lets see who the best pirate is now!

I challenge you to a duel!

On guard!

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:24 pm

losteagle
Guest

Re: On guard!

BIGFATPARTYANIMAL wrote:

losteagle wrote:

Well lets see who the best pirate is now!

I challenge you to a duel!

On guard!

I shall be...see you at the box... Twisted Evil

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:20 pm

Jonnyreb
Guest

Time Zones

I have been following these threads along but my wife and I have been solving all the puzzles on our own.

Something of note. The time zones in the different rules for various countries are based off of their own time zones for that country (if that made sense) (i.e. USA - EST, UK - BST, etc...). However, not all rules say the entrants have until 11:59:59 July 11, 2006, to enter. USA uses the previous date but UK uses 18:00:00... Maybe the final puzzle will be different in that it will begin worldwide on the same day.

Which means that people who are not taking the time to solve the puzzles themselves will be at a loss without anyone's coat tails to ride on.

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:19 pm

dhoule
Boot

Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 25

Re: if it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating

Phaedra wrote:

All right. If it's not in the rules and it doesn't break any law it's not cheating. I think Rose probably assumed that was a given, as I did. As most people probably did.

Fair enough, although it still begs the question... if guessing the file name of the next SWF file and downloading it early isn't expressly against the rules, and it's not illegal, then why did the game designers change the file names to stop people from doing it?

Phaedra wrote:

A little context: we're an Alternate Reality Game community. ARGs are a fairly new gametype, so there aren't a lot of rules, and what constitutes acceptable gameplay is still under debate. This is not an ARG, obviously, but the same generally goes for puzzle trails.

Yes, I'm seeing that type of thinking in all the replies I'm getting, and I'm realizing that this is really the wrong group of people for me to be "whining" to Smile

For the most part, this is a community of people who solve puzzles by whatever means necessary. I can respect that. I do believe, however, that this contest falls outside the realm of ARG and should not be played by ARG rules just because someone happened to start a thread on an ARG forum.

Phaedra wrote:

the general consensus seemed to be that if it is possible to get the answer to a puzzle by -- for example -- decompiling a swf file, and the game designers don't want people to solve the puzzle that way, ultimately the responsibility rests with them to design their puzzles in such a way that people can't "cheat," not with the players to determine what is and isn't "fair play" (beyond the obvious things like not brute forcing or doing something illegal like breaking into offices and stealing files).

Yes, I quite agree with you on that. I did mention that in a previous post. I rely on the game designers to correct the game if people are accessing files or hacking things they shouldn't.

Phaedra wrote:

I didn't see anything in Rose's post that came across as an "attack" or "blasting" -- quite to the contrary, I think she was trying to reassure you that it would be okay Smile

I agree... I think her comments were reasonable.

Phaedra wrote:

and as for JustAWhiner, as you'll note, I asked him to keep his side of the discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks.

Yes, I saw... and I do appreciate that.

Phaedra wrote:

I assure you that the ethics of puzzle solving and fair gameplay is one that has been discussed often here, and you are certainly not the only person here who cares about "honesty and integrity."

My apologies. I really didn't mean to imply that nobody here had integrity. When responding to these forums it's easy to make comments about a handful of posters but sound as though you're speaking to everyone. That was not my intention.

Phaedra wrote:

As Rose mentioned, for most of us, this is something we do for sheer love of the game, because most ARGs do not have monetary rewards.

Agreed. And that brings up a good point... since this is a real-live contest and not just a fictional ARG "game" you are really dealing with two distinct groups... one that have a stake in the contest and believe they can win, and one that is just solving puzzles for fun. Problem is that the stakeholders pose no threat or problem for the solvers, but the solvers do seriously impact the game for the stakeholders. In this case though, the solvers really have no reason to care about the stakeholders. The solvers just care about solving. My mistake was to try and voice that and get some sympathy, since I am a stakeholder Smile

but I see now that I should have just kept quiet.

Phaedra wrote:

while the moderators generally try to discourage personal attacks and flamewars when people disagree, we're also not going to try to stop people from disagreeing with you.

Perfectly fine, and understandable.

Phaedra wrote:

If you can't tell the difference between a personal attack and polite disagreement like Rose's, you may want to concentrate on puzzle-solving and stay away from the meta debates. Smile

Which many people choose to do.

Actually this is a case of me mentioning "attacks" and "blasts" and commenting on community while responding to Rose... but I didn't mean Rose. I guess it must have sounded like I was saying Rose was doing those things? I can certainly tell the difference between attacks and intelligent disagreement and had no problem with Rose's comments. Might not have agreed totally with them, but didn't feel attacked. When I said that I was referring to past posts from the obvious people... the ones you have been reminding to play nice. Sorry Rose Embarassed

Phaedra wrote:

Now. Can we return this to a general discussion of rules and stop having it be a referendum on various people's ethics, niceness, consistency, or whatever?

I think that's a good idea. As I mentioned above, I brought up a topic that I really probably shouldn't have and to be honest I'm over it. I still feel the same, but most people here have no stake in this other than puzzle solving fun, so they're not going to change... and these posts are getting pretty tedious.

I appreciate your comments Phaedra... thanks!

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:53 am

Giskard
Sassypants

Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago

Phaedra wrote:

Now. Can we return this to a general discussion of rules and stop having it be a referendum on various people's ethics, niceness, consistency, or whatever?

Can I just politely ignore your plea for a little while longer to clear some things up? Cool

dhoule wrote:

Yes, I'm seeing that type of thinking in all the replies I'm getting, and I'm realizing that this is really the wrong group of people for me to be "whining" to Smile

Phaedra wrote:

Yes, I quite agree with you on that. I did mention that in a previous post. I rely on the game designers to correct the game if people are accessing files or hacking things they shouldn't.

I think that what ARGs and these kind of puzzle-trails have in common, is that as a game designer, you can never precisely predict up front how your audience is going to (re)act to your game design. If you have a group of people, like the folks here at unFiction, who are dedicated to solving a puzzle and usually turn it inside out the minute they find it, you can be sure there'll be a few surprises along the road, in terms of "flaws" in your game-design or "creative use" of aspects of your game you hadn't thought of. Things like that will probably force you to make some adjustments to your game along the way, which is hardly avoidable, because you'd singlehandedly have to anticipate the thoughts and ways of every single player contributing to solving your puzzles.

That said, I'm not sure if your characteristion of this community is entirely accurate, because there have been and still are lengthy discussions on if there should be any rules for playing ARGs (or puzzletrails for that matter) and if so, what they should be. Decompiling swf's for example is generally considered at least not be good sportsmanship, because you know that it is not the way a puzzle is intended to be solved, but, using common sense, you'll know that it will happen, so we generally expect game designers / puppetmasters to do their share to prevent the game being ruined for some players by this sort of thing.

This being a "real" competition, where there's actually stuff at stake, makes it even more important for the game designers to have strict rules and guidelines on how to play, but also strict control over the game design to prevent "unfair advantages" for those finding these little loopholes the rules do not cover. Alas, there's only so much rules you can make a community stick to by themselves (the posting guidelines to this forum being a fine example Rolling Eyes

dhoule wrote:

Phaedra wrote:

I assure you that the ethics of puzzle solving and fair gameplay is one that has been discussed often here, and you are certainly not the only person here who cares about "honesty and integrity."

dhoule wrote:

...since this is a real-live contest and not just a fictional ARG "game" you are really dealing with two distinct groups... one that have a stake in the contest and believe they can win, and one that is just solving puzzles for fun. Problem is that the stakeholders pose no threat or problem for the solvers, but the solvers do seriously impact the game for the stakeholders. In this case though, the solvers really have no reason to care about the stakeholders. The solvers just care about solving. My mistake was to try and voice that and get some sympathy, since I am a stakeholder Smile

but I see now that I should have just kept quiet.

dhoule wrote:

As I mentioned above, I brought up a topic that I really probably shouldn't have and to be honest I'm over it.

It is certainly not our intention to shut you (or anyone) up on these forums, or to shout down discussions. Generally, this community loves to have lengthy and vivid (and yes sometimes tedious Very Happy

) discussions on anything META we can get our hands on. As it turns out, you've already met two people (rose and Phaedra) who are huge contributors to all sorts of META-discussions on these boards (all you need to do is take a look at the General META Discussion forum to see how vivid these discussions can get Wink

)

The thing with the Volvo forum is that it has attracted a HUGE amount of (new) people to these boards, some of which haven't exactly been helpful in keeping the discussions clear and on-topic. As moderators, we sometimes need to be strict to prevent the forum and it's threads from cluttering up to the point it becomes impossible to have any discussion of the game itself, which has caused us to intervene a couple of times, for example, to prevent flamewars from starting.

It is however not, and never has been, our intention to prevent these debates from occurring, and as long as they can be held in a polite and friendly manner, we more than welcome them.

dhoule wrote:

I still feel the same, but most people here have no stake in this other than puzzle solving fun, so they're not going to change... and these posts are getting pretty tedious.

Actually, to be honest, I've not seen many unFiction regulars post in the Volvo forums at all up 'till now (except for the moderators, who are, as far as I'm aware, not playing the game themselves), and most people that have been posting are actively participating in the contest, having the same stakes as you. All the more reason everyone should be able to voice their opinion!

_________________
"They never tell you truth is subjective, they only tell you not to lie." -- Gary Jules

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:50 am

dhoule
Boot

Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 25

Giskard wrote:

I'm not sure if your characteristion of this community is entirely accurate, because there have been and still are lengthy discussions on if there should be any rules for playing ARGs (or puzzletrails for that matter) and if so, what they should be. Decompiling swf's for example is generally considered at least not be good sportsmanship, because you know that it is not the way a puzzle is intended to be solved, but, using common sense, you'll know that it will happen, so we generally expect game designers / puppetmasters to do their share to prevent the game being ruined for some players by this sort of thing.

Yes, I'm seeing more and more that the posts to this thread are not entirely indicative of the entire ARG community.

Giskard wrote:

This being a "real" competition, where there's actually stuff at stake, makes it even more important for the game designers to have strict rules and guidelines on how to play, but also strict control over the game design to prevent "unfair advantages" for those finding these little loopholes the rules do not cover.

Yes, I totally agree. And you even see that on reality shows and contests where people come up with creative ways to sovle something, and since it's not expressly prohibited by the rules the judges may allow it. I don't condemn creative thinking. In the beginning I was mainly just annoyed that so many people were just posting outright answers to something that is a real contest, has a real prize, and has real people playing it hoping to actually win. I liken it to entering a sanctioned marathon with a cash award to the winner, and as you're running the race there are other people running along side of you who don't actually have a contestant number, but are carrying other real contestants on their backs. I think anyone with a contestant number who saw that happening would be likely to yell foul... and rightly so (in my opinion.)

Giskard wrote:

Alas, there's only so much rules you can make a community stick to by themselves (the posting guidelines to this forum being a fine example Rolling Eyes

Agreed

Giskard wrote:

) discussions on anything META we can get our hands on. As it turns out, you've already met two people (rose and Phaedra) who are huge contributors to all sorts of META-discussions on these boards

I appreciate that. I value critical thinking and have a deep respect for those who know how to argue a point without making it personal or rude. So far, the worst offenders have apparently been non-ARGers and the nicest people have been forum moderators. That's definitely changed some of my opinions about this forum Very Happy

Giskard wrote:

It is however not, and never has been, our intention to prevent these debates from occurring, and as long as they can be held in a polite and friendly manner, we more than welcome them.

* dhoule gets a warm, fuzzy feeling all over

Giskard wrote:

Actually, to be honest, I've not seen many unFiction regulars post in the Volvo forums at all up 'till now (except for the moderators, who are, as far as I'm aware, not playing the game themselves)

Interesting

Giskard wrote:

and most people that have been posting are actively participating in the contest, having the same stakes as you.

Actually I think I'd have to disagree with that... there have been many many posts saying things like "I'm at Madeira, but I just read that I need a map code, can anyone send me one?" or "I know I have no chance of winning, but this is a fun game." I've read just about every post to this forum, including the 38 page thread that started the whole thing. If I had to put money on it I'd say that only 20%-30% of the people playing actually feel like they could win or are even eligible to win. there are lots playing who'd like to win, but realize they won't because every time they check the forum for a hint there's other players already finished this week's puzzles. No, I wouldn't say that most posters have a real stake in winning, I'd say most don't. I could be wrong, just my opinion.

Giskard wrote:

All the more reason everyone should be able to voice their opinion!

Agreed, and much thanks for your input Giskard!

ARG forum members move another notch up the "Intelligent, and pleasant to talk to" scoreboard.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:11 pm

JustAWhiner
Guest

Re: if it isn't against the rules, it isn't cheating

Phaedra wrote:

and as for JustAWhiner, as you'll note, I asked him to keep his side of the discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks.

Which, as you'll have seen irrespective of your intervention, I have done. It was a perfectly civil post in which I was simply making the point that some statements previously expressed didn't necessarily ring true.

However I'm obviously not alone in thinking that a certain individual ***** (name removed by poster to avoid accusations of making a personal attack) has blithely accused all swarthy pirates of blatant cheating.

Even in his last post this nameless individual couldn't resist the implication that, because some of us choose not to become members of the forum we're therefore not indicative of the standards normally expected of "genuine" players and that we are the "worst offenders".

You don't always have to call a spade a shovel - this is yet another far-from-subtle accusation by the oh-so-holy-that-I've-never-decompiled-a-flash-file-nameless-one that we mere guests are all cheating. Now I've actually solved all of the puzzles within 15-30 minutes so far without recourse to anything other than my brain, a sheet of paper, and a pencil. But never have I been tempted to decompile a flash file so much as I do now - if only to ensure that the odds of success for certain individuals are significantly lengthened Shocked

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:53 pm

Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

/me opens the Internet Survival Toolkit and gives JustAWhiner a big wad of Thick Skin.

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:42 pm

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