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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Lost Experience » TLE: META, OT, and Social Interactions
[META] Hanso real world vs. TV fiction
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chief
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[META] Hanso real world vs. TV fiction

Jenna wrote:
Another point i'd like to add about them making the tv show "real" in the game, is that everyone is trying to link people in the show with people in the arg. Maybe they wanted to point out yet again that the two arent linked. After all, why would a member of a "real-life" company have something to do with a character in a tv show?
Since this thread DID turn pretty META, it seems a good place to expand on thoughts I had in another thread:
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=250332#250332

It seems to me the key for understanding the relationship of the "real world" of the ARG to the fictional world of Lost is to realize it's a one way street - stuff from TLE ARG that deals with Hanso is "real stuff" the Lost writers knew about and put into the show. But since the show is fiction, we can't go the other way and say that the monster is DJ Dan's nanobot cloud, or Locke's dad works for Hanso, or something like that. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say a certain character on the show IS a certain character in TLE. But it might make sense to say that Lost writers knew about a certain TLE character (who is "real") and based a show character on that person.* Subtle, but important, distinction when looking at connections between Lost and TLE. And stuff like Persephone using certain phrases that appear on the show as clues** can be explained by the fact that the fictional show airs in the real world of the game, and as the show is Hanso related Persephone would of course tie her clues in to the show because of the large audience she could expose to the truth about Hanso.

Therefore, I think we have to treat all Hanso and DHARMA related stuff from the show as FICTIONAL until TLE establishes a "real world" basis for it. DHARMA was just a fictional weird experiment with holes in the ground and orientation tapes until TLE revealed early on that it was part of the Hanso Foundation. So now we know DHARMA exists/existed in the "real" world, but since it appeared on Lost the writers must have known something about it. In fact, they must have known A LOT about it: we now know DHARMA stands for the Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications, and the experiments depicted on the show fit that pretty nicely. So DHARMA is definitely in-game and now the question for us is how much of what appears on the show is spec by the writers and how much is based on what the writers must actually know? This is a truly twisty Alternate Reality because it is so hard to draw the lines. (I think that this is an excellent aspect of the game)

Also, until very recently the Black Rock was a boat on a fictional TV show. Now we've seen from Rachel Blake's digging that is a "real" boat that was lost. So now we get to the spec from my earlier post:
[Spec]Perhaps the Lost writers knew of Hanso's connection to shipping / slave trading and wrote the disappearance of the Black Rock into the show. It could even be that the writers will use the loss of the Black Rock to explain how Hanso found the island in the first place. The ship crashes due to mysterious island, but maybe a handful of people get away and lead Hanso back to the island eventually.[\Spec]

I am beating this point to death because I think it is very important to understanding what all the clues mean in the big picture of TLE.

*Spoilered because of Season 2 Finale tie-in
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
For example, there is a lot of Penelope=Persephone talk. If Persephone is real and Lost is fake, then it could be that Lost writers knew a real life analogue of Penny Widmore existed and that she had a row with The Hanso Foundation. The writers are already writing about Hanso, and think, hey, we can work this feuding daughter of a Hanso associate into the show. And voila, Penny is born. And it is therefore natural for us to connect real-world Persephone (feuding with Hanso) with fictional world Penny (feuding with Hanso, sort of).


**Spoilered because of connection to Season 2, epi 17
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Blast door map from Lockdown (2x17) contained the phrase "a mouse does not rely on just one hole"


EDIT: Veteran now, woot!

EDIT2: Clarified DHARMA connection per Shaggy and Gus's suggestions

Edit - moved this post and it's reply to a new topic, so that more people will see and comment! - celina63
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:45 pm
Last edited by chief on Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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theShaggy
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chief wrote:
Therefore, I think we have to treat all Hanso and DHARMA related stuff from the show as FICTIONAL until TLE establishes a "real world" basis for it. DHARMA was just a fictional weird experiment with holes in the ground and orientation tapes until TLE revealed the existence of the Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications at the Hanso Foundation. Now we know DHARMA exists/existed in the "real" world, but since it appeared on Lost the writers must have known something about it. So now DHARMA is in-game, but how much of what appears on the show is spec by the writers and how much is based on what the writers must actually know? This is a truly twisty Alternate Reality because it is so hard to draw the lines. (I think that this is an excellent aspect of the game)


I agree that it's twisted, but I disagree on DHARMA's first appearance being with the revelation of the Department of Heuristics.

The DHARMA logo appeared on the shark on DJ Dan's website back when it first went up, and Hugh McIntyre admitted that the DHARMA project was a real project that was cancelled in the 80s on Kimmel Live.

Anyway, that's nitpicking. You make a good point, and I think we should all learn from what you say.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:49 pm
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Gus Raja
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theShaggy wrote:
chief wrote:
Therefore, I think we have to treat all Hanso and DHARMA related stuff from the show as FICTIONAL until TLE establishes a "real world" basis for it. DHARMA was just a fictional weird experiment with holes in the ground and orientation tapes until TLE revealed the existence of the Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications at the Hanso Foundation. Now we know DHARMA exists/existed in the "real" world, but since it appeared on Lost the writers must have known something about it. So now DHARMA is in-game, but how much of what appears on the show is spec by the writers and how much is based on what the writers must actually know? This is a truly twisty Alternate Reality because it is so hard to draw the lines. (I think that this is an excellent aspect of the game)


I agree that it's twisted, but I disagree on DHARMA's first appearance being with the revelation of the Department of Heuristics.

The DHARMA logo appeared on the shark on DJ Dan's website back when it first went up, and Hugh McIntyre admitted that the DHARMA project was a real project that was cancelled in the 80s on Kimmel Live.

Anyway, that's nitpicking. You make a good point, and I think we should all learn from what you say.



Actually, it appeared at the very beginning. As soon as you enter the password upon registering for the newsletter, the screen reads...

Quote:
Last Login: <unknown>
Welcome to Dharma
PERSEPHONE: You are logged in now...
PERSEPHONE: Check it out and check back for updates
PERSEPHONE: Gotta go! See you later...
user PERSEPHONE logged out


So it's been tied in since the very start of the ARG.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:06 am
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chief
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Shaggy and Gus:
Your nitpicking is welcomed! I will clarify in the main post so that my underlying message is not diluted.

I do think what I am saying is important in terms of forming theories, etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:09 pm
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SpiralBoundBook
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I totally agree. I think the distinction is necessary when it comes to discussions about whether or not you ahve to watch the show to play the game- because I continue to beleive that this is a one way street. I think we should assume that info from the game will inform us about the show, but details from the show will not provide answers for the game.
The one (albeit tenuous) exception to this so far was the following, which I will spoiler for those who have not reached it yet.

2x17
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
"A mouse does not rely on just one hole" was featured on the blast door map in latin, and truly obsessive fans would immediately remember it from the myriad of blast door map discussions. This made it much easier to spot the solve to that ridiculously long anagram, espeically since there was that translation problem with the dashes. However, I mark it tenuous because that quote is not originally FROM the blast door, but from Plautus. Of course, the PMs aren't relying on our extensive knowledge of latin, but of the show. What Persephone's motives for using that particular quote are remain unknown, but perhaps Hanso/DHARMA employees like to toss around Plautus in the office.


PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:34 pm
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matt_the_pale
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SpiralBoundBook wrote:
I totally agree. I think the distinction is necessary when it comes to discussions about whether or not you ahve to watch the show to play the game- because I continue to beleive that this is a one way street. I think we should assume that info from the game will inform us about the show, but details from the show will not provide answers for the game.
The one (albeit tenuous) exception to this so far was the following, which I will spoiler for those who have not reached it yet.

2x17
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
"A mouse does not rely on just one hole" was featured on the blast door map in latin, and truly obsessive fans would immediately remember it from the myriad of blast door map discussions. This made it much easier to spot the solve to that ridiculously long anagram, espeically since there was that translation problem with the dashes. However, I mark it tenuous because that quote is not originally FROM the blast door, but from Plautus. Of course, the PMs aren't relying on our extensive knowledge of latin, but of the show. What Persephone's motives for using that particular quote are remain unknown, but perhaps Hanso/DHARMA employees like to toss around Plautus in the office.


Except:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
There have been four references to the Blast Door Map.
1. "A Mouse does not have just one hole."
2. Heavy water.
3. Valenzetti
4. Magnus Hanso/Black Rock

I personally believe that some physical things from the Lost television show also exist in the ARG, namely the Island, the Hatches, the Orientation Videos, the Black Rock, and the Blast Door Map. I guess only time can tell for sure.


PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:19 pm
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theShaggy
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Absolutely, and I think that was the intent of the game from the beginning. We, those who watch the show religiously, will get a certain satisfaction from playing the game, because it will make clear things which we have questioned up until this point (the acronym DHARMA, for instance). However, everything thus far has been pretty self-contained and not within the realm of the "Island" and specifically the characters from the show itself.

So we're pretty well off, really. Fun game which can stand on it's own, but made all the more better when you watch the show. Hopefully the mysteries we see here and the gushing of glee when something is revealed picks up a couple other fans of the show, y'know?

(Good call on the DHARMA login, by the way... I had forgotten about that)

ADDED: Maybe we should start a "definite connections to the series" thread, with an adequate spoiler warning on the thread itself for season 2?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:20 pm
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chief
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So far this discussion is exactly what I was hoping to get in response to my post. You guys rock!
theShaggy wrote:
Maybe we should start a "definite connections to the series" thread, with an adequate spoiler warning on the thread itself for season 2?
Matt the Pale got us off to an excellent start so look for a new thread on the other half of the bulletin board. I just hope that doesn't kill the discussion here - well, maybe it wouldn't matter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:57 pm
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SpiralBoundBook
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matt_the_pale wrote:
Except:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
There have been four references to the Blast Door Map.
1. "A Mouse does not have just one hole."
2. Heavy water.
3. Valenzetti
4. Magnus Hanso/Black Rock

I personally believe that some physical things from the Lost television show also exist in the ARG, namely the Island, the Hatches, the Orientation Videos, the Black Rock, and the Blast Door Map. I guess only time can tell for sure.

Above spoiler is for 2X17.

Those are references to the show, and there are many, many references both to the show as a show (Retrievers of Truth is full of them), or to shared elements between the ARG reality which the show is "based" on and the show. As has been said before, LOST is based on the reality explored in this ARG, and so things like Magnus Hanso, Alvar Hanso, Valenzetti, etc. will of course show up in both places. However, 2, 3 and 4 did not require knowledge of the show in order to solve a puzzle, which is my original point.

I think there are absolutely crossovers to the show, and lots of them, but I think they only go in one direction. But that first reference listed was the only one where knowing the show helped to solve a puzzle in the game; the others are points where knowledge of the game helps to solve a puzzle in the show.

The latter is happening a lot, and will certainly continue to happen. Hence, playing the game will enhance your understanding of the show, but watching the show isn't necessarily going to give you answers for the puzzles of the game. Just more context.

[ADDED] OOOH, I totally vote for that thread. I think in particular it would be great to keep a running synopsis of the show puzzles explained by the ARG, because I think they are going to use this medium to explain a lot of the backstory that the writers have created but just won't have time to explore during the show. The final result would be a great reference for LOST fans who don't play the ARG but want to get caught up before season 3 starts.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:00 pm
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theShaggy
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I also think, in the sense of "Answering puzzles from the show," it should be kept here under a META tag.

The way I figure it, if the show is actually a show within the realm of the ARG (and everyone mostly assumes it is), then any direct connections between what we see on the show and what we learn in the game is somewhat meta, don't you think?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:12 pm
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chief
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SpiralBoundBook wrote:
I think there are absolutely crossovers to the show, and lots of them, but I think they only go in one direction. But that first reference listed was the only one where knowing the show helped to solve a puzzle in the game; the others are points where knowledge of the game helps to solve a puzzle in the show.


Stellar point!

SpiralBoundBook wrote:
[ADDED] OOOH, I totally vote for that thread. I think in particular it would be great to keep a running synopsis of the show puzzles explained by the ARG, because I think they are going to use this medium to explain a lot of the backstory that the writers have created but just won't have time to explore during the show. The final result would be a great reference for LOST fans who don't play the ARG but want to get caught up before season 3 starts.

Ask and ye shall receive!
http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15497

EDIT:
theShaggy wrote:
I also think, in the sense of "Answering puzzles from the show," it should be kept here under a META tag.

The way I figure it, if the show is actually a show within the realm of the ARG (and everyone mostly assumes it is), then any direct connections between what we see on the show and what we learn in the game is somewhat meta, don't you think?

I totally considered this point of view, then decided it could work as a [REF] thread in the other half.

I guess what I am striving for is clarifying your point that "the show is actually a show within the realm of the ARG" - at unfiction most people get it, but keeping it straight still twists me up sometimes. And at other TLE boards many people are clueless as to this distinction and it hurts clear thinking/spec'ing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:36 pm
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vector
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LOST is just like a movie based on real events.

Something like the movie Pear Harber, its a movie that the producers got the idea from real events, incorporate some real information into the show but also take alot of creative liceince.

If you then became interested in the events of WWII after watching the show, you could go and research real events and history, much like we are doing with the game.

When you do that research, you will not find direct links to the actors, and the script of the movie and real events beacuse they were made up to make a compelling story. Now I could use reffrences from Pear Harber when talking about the real events.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:53 pm
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theShaggy
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True.

Although, connections between the show and the game are decidedly for the players, and not for the characters within the game at this point. While there are connections, none of the characters (outside of Hugh on Kimmel) have said "DHARMA, which is also represented on the TV show LOST, has an acronym here..." or what-have-you. That makes me question it's META-ness.

Yet the REF tag works pretty good in this case. Good call.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:57 pm
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SpiralBoundBook
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vector wrote:
LOST is just like a movie based on real events.

Something like the movie Pear Harber, its a movie that the producers got the idea from real events, incorporate some real information into the show but also take alot of creative liceince.

You know what it's like to me- and forgive me for being ENTIRELY nerdy about this, but I'm a lit. theory student so I can't help it. There is a relm of thought in literary criticism/theory/academic insanity where people try to dissect levels of reality in the world of literature. Umberto Eco (who wrote The Name of the Rose and some other things) has a series of lectures called "Six Walks in the Fictional Woods" where he discusses this. It's really wonderful.

Anyway- one part of it talks about "truth" versus "reality", and I think it's best summed up this way:

If I say to you
"True or False: Hamlet was the prince of France."
You say, "False. Hamlet was the prince of Denmark."

But Hamlet wasn't *really* a prince of Denmark either, as he is a fictional character. Denmark has had princes and none of them are really named Hamlet. The statement "Hamlet was a prince of France" is simply MORE false than the statement "Hamlet was a prince of Denmark," as the latter is true in the established reality of Shakespeare's play.

So, we have LOST, which is fictional to us and to the workers at Hanso, Widmore, Paik, etc. But the workers at Hanso, Widmore, Paik, etc. are also fictional, to us, just in a different way. If/when their counterparts on the show are introduced (if they haven't been already, and I'm going to refrain from spoilers here so I won't go into who I think these are), those DHARMA/Hanso/Paik/Widmore workers would be, in the ARG world, fictional representations of people who work at real companies.

I mean- then extend it to include the fact that in the ARG universe we have fictional characters who work at real companies from OUR world- like Verizon.

...There's a reason my screenname has the word Spiral and the work Book in it. I tend to love to think myself in circles.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:34 am
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Gus Raja
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SpiralBoundBook wrote:
I think there are absolutely crossovers to the show, and lots of them, but I think they only go in one direction. But that first reference listed was the only one where knowing the show helped to solve a puzzle in the game; the others are points where knowledge of the game helps to solve a puzzle in the show.

The latter is happening a lot, and will certainly continue to happen. Hence, playing the game will enhance your understanding of the show, but watching the show isn't necessarily going to give you answers for the puzzles of the game. Just more context.



One thing you don't want to overlook is that because the show is a real show in this ARG as well, characters like Persephone and the Verizon employees posting at the ROT site have probably watched it and as well recognize comparisons to the Hanso Foundation including the obvious Dharma connection. So when Persephone uses words seen on the show as a puzzle solve, she probably got those words from watching the show. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see stuff from the SHOW pop up on the ROT site as well. Keep in mind that the ROT employees, and DJ Dan as well, went to the THF site and are playing this ARG right along with us. They've seen the show and the site, and are also trying to figure this all out. When DJ Dan mentions something from the show we don't even flinch, so why should we when Persephone does? Rachel Blake, Persephone, DJ Dan, the Speaker, etc, etc, etc, have all been checking out both.

The only persons that I wouldn't expect to see reference anything from the show would be Hanso board members, but they've even likely watched the show. They're simply not likely to use anything from the show because they've made it clear that, after all, it is just a fictional show. The THF needs to distance itself from perceived connections to the show in case anything comes out in the show that might be detrimental to their organization.

We might as well place parameters around the extents of where connections may lie...

1. ABC producers are privy to history when producing the show, so anything that actually has happened publically in this ARG might be on the show. Beyond mere knowledge of events, they also would know all the various theories and fields of science that Hanso/Dharma was working on, and may include any of that as part of the show.

2. ABC may have even had leeked foreknowledge of Hanso's (or Dharma's) intent to crash the particular flight as some kind of experiment. This is spec because there may have never been any such intention to begin with, but it's a theory that's been floating around. ABC may also have become aware of alterior motives by the Hanso Foundation which they may attempt to expose on the show. In other words, they may have presumptions about what Hanso/Dharma might do in the future keeping in mind that ABC employees, and even the writers of the show itself, are probably playing the same ARG we are.

3. All ARG characters have likely watched the show, so anything in the show may be used in the ARG, although it's not likely to be used by Hanso execs looking out for the best interests of Hanso (it might however be used by Hanso execs disenfranchised by the foundations who are looking to expose it, in the event that any such characters exist). In particular, stuff from the show is likely to be used on non-Hanso stuff such as hints/clues/solves set up by Persephone, DJ Dan, Rachel Blake, Verizon employees, Monster employees, Sprite employees, Chrysler employees, and of course ABC employees (i.e., the Speaker), etc.

4. There seems to be a connection to the LOST numbers (4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42), but what is the connection? These numbers are fundamental to the show, and seem to be just as fundamental to THF (the subLYMONal game, the DHARMA acronymn hack, etc).

I think that covers it all.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:19 am
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