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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
How real is too real?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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Mikeyj
Unfictologist


Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: London

Plus if someone who was kidnapped or "kidnapped" stopped posting, wouldn't that make UF in-game by default?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:09 am
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Giskard
Sassypants


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago

Mikeyj wrote:
Plus if someone who was kidnapped or "kidnapped" stopped posting, wouldn't that make UF in-game by default?


Well, if that someone had been posting on uF, that someone would have been breaking the unfiction TOS in the first place, as "characters" are not allowed to post here, because uF is out of game.

We've had a case like this a few years back with the game AWARE, and while it was original, it also illustrated the reasons why uF has the TOS it has. There needs to be a place where you can discuss a game knowing that you can discuss it without actually affecting it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:23 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Giskard wrote:
There needs to be a place where you can discuss a game knowing that you can discuss it without actually affecting it.


As much as I love you, Gisk....

Our discussions here do affect the games we play -- PMs certainly read and react to these boards. They just don't admit it. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:33 pm
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Giskard
Sassypants


Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago

Well, ofcourse they do, but they only affect them indirectly. The PMs read these boards and tweak or steer their game according to what the players are doing here, yet a game's reality, plot or characters cannot be directly influenced by what happens here.

uF is here so we can discuss stuff happening with characters or opinions on characters without the characters actually knowing we are discussing anything. If stuff we say here was to be used in the game's reality, that would pose all sorts of very complex and annoying problems. That the PMs read it and use it to their benefit or the benefit of the players is something else ofcourse.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:38 pm
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Mikeyj
Unfictologist


Joined: 18 Oct 2004
Posts: 1847
Location: London

Giskard wrote:
Well, if that someone had been posting on uF, that someone would have been breaking the unfiction TOS in the first place, as "characters" are not allowed to post here, because uF is out of game.


Sure, but I meant it in the context that an exisiting player who posts here volunteers to be kidnapped in game (PXC again...one of the PMs described their desire to actually take it that far and many I'm sure would like to volunteer (alright, I mean I would). However, they wouldn't really seem to be kidnapped unless they stopped contacting other players. But would bring UF in game by default.

I'm being a pedant aren't I? Hushing my lips up now.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:26 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

There's also the Art of the Heist / HitsHerMark example. At the end of the game, HHM was killed *gasp* in game. She was quite active on the board before her in-game death which was discovered, iirc, by a photo of her dead.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:47 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Phaedra wrote:
Giskard wrote:
There needs to be a place where you can discuss a game knowing that you can discuss it without actually affecting it.


As much as I love you, Gisk....

Our discussions here do affect the games we play -- PMs certainly read and react to these boards. They just don't admit it. Wink


I'll admit we read the boards! Mainly to gauge when it was time to add another hint to the pile, because there is frustrating the players in a fun way, then there is frustrating the players too much that they get angry and stop playing. Plus some of the comments are just way to funny to pass up!

*edit*
I should add that we never posted anything to our game section on the uF board that would affect the knowledge the players had gathered about the game.

Having been involved with the PM team for Aware 1 but not directly part of the problem that caused the ruccus (and oh! how it hurt when it happened!) I have to say I am stiull firmly on the side of supporting the forum TOS. If you don't like it start your own in game forum for that - which several games have done more or less successfully. Common sense says you don't want to piss in your player pool. They tend to get mad at you when you do.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:08 pm
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Cooler_King
Boot


Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
Location: UK

I think we may be discussing several concepts as one..

OK, from reading a few threads that someone pointed out to me Wink I have a few points.

When we discuss realism in these threads are we all talking about the same concept? Are we talking about realism or simulation?

I see realism within the ARG as events or characters that could possibly exist. A theft, a spy, a businessman, a painting etc are all viable and tangible concepts.

In opposition, a time traveller, parrallel universe, spaceship fighter training program etc begin to stretch my suspension of disbelief. Most likely for the same reasons that I do not read such fiction or buy such convential computer games. (Please please no-one beguile me with protests of scientific evidence of any of the above! lol)

So, when I support more realistic ARG's I am actually asking for a game involving real world concepts > hacking, journalism, detective work, cctv footage, whatever..


However more and more I see the debate moving not from the content of the ARG but to the delivery. Most players want guidelines and boundaries for reassurance. Thus, IMHO we are now discussing the simulation. How simulated is the action, story, event and especially...how simulated is the interaction.... with the player.

I can completely understand this, people want to know that they are not actually *investigating* a murder lol. They want to know that the "Mutilated Body Strangler* is not going to phone their house at 3AM screaming "Your next deceased-boy!!" I can sympathise that they dont actually want black sedans with strange males following them to work!

But I really feel we need to divide and define the concepts. However, you may not agree.

Personally, I love the realism (the more the better) but if simulation became real life I think I would be phoning the cops pr-etty quickly!!

Anyone see my point?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:16 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Re: I think we may be discussing several concepts as one..

Yup, they're separate concepts, but they can be hard to extricate.

One way or another, you need some sort of metacommunication that reassures players: "This is a game. It's not real. We're not trying to fool you into thinking it's real. You know it's not real, and we know you know it's not real."

The advantage to a game with elements like time traveling AIs or haunted poker sites is that it announces that and gets it out of the way immediately by its very subject matter. That's not to say PMs shouldn't make "realistic" games; I'm just noting that it's harder to get those metacommunications out there as efficiently or elegantly.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:26 pm
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sixsidedsquare
Unfettered

Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 409
Location: 60E

Another common reality buffer that fits with the real word concepts you were talking about Cooler_King is the inclusion of or reference to business/newspapers/new events that obviously don't exist. If your story centers around a large company or has a 'high profile' art theft, it is normally quite apparent to argers that these places and things don't actually exist.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:22 am
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Cooler_King
Boot


Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
Location: UK

Quote:
If your story centers around a large company or has a 'high profile' art theft, it is normally quite apparent to argers that these places and things don't actually exist.


Of course that is true, but my response to that would be twofold

1. How often have you yawned through an action film because at the back of your mind you were thinking the whole time 'James Bond doesn't exist. This is fake. He will get escape.'......or in The Usual Suspects...
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Kevin Spacey was revealed as Keyser Soze


...you didn't immediately think to yourself 'it does not matter because the film is not real' did you? You were IN the story.

The audience may be aware that the events are not real but they are not consciously thinking about it the whole time. I feel that the audience should be caught up in the story, excited about it. Not just trudging from one puzzle to another. Without good narration, interaction or character empathy then yes, I completely agree that the audience disengage and stop believing.

My second argument would be that if an audience knows that a newspaper, business, crime, kidnap is not real then they must be painfully aware that more science fiction ARG's are completely unbelievable and thus even more disengaged. it becomes a purely logical quest to solve puzzles and outwit puppetmasters.

Plus, your comments would have Samuel Coleridge turning in his grave lol Razz

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:47 am
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Cooler_King
Boot


Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 34
Location: UK

Razz That's it.. you have woke the beast lol. Await my upcoming esay on

The use of realistic plot devices in the further expansion of Alternate Reality Gaming including the possible effects of uber-realism on the public psyche

Or I may just call it To feel, get real! Razz

I may just be preaching to the minority here, it certainly feels so, but none the less there may be a market out there for gamers like myself.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:51 am
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

Cooler_King wrote:
My second argument would be that if an audience knows that a newspaper, business, crime, kidnap is not real then they must be painfully aware that more science fiction ARG's are completely unbelievable and thus even more disengaged. it becomes a purely logical quest to solve puzzles and outwit puppetmasters.


I'm not sure if you're actually saying you believe this, or if you're just saying that a particular argument followed to its end leads logically to the above conclusion, but the statement that science fiction based ARGs' unbelievability makes them emotionally disengaging is belied by, for starters, the Beast, ILB, Last Call Poker, Lockjaw and Metacortechs.

I challenge you to find a non-scifi/fantasy based game that has evoked anywhere near the passionate emotional attachment of players to characters in those games. I'm not saying AotH, for example, wasn't as fun, but I don't think it was as deeply felt for most players.

An unrealistic plot, according to those precedents, doesn't prevent emotional engagement, and may even aid it by creating a "safe fictional space" in which it's "okay" and not "gullible" to feel and even love.

There's a profound difference between plot realism and emotional realism.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:03 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

Phaedra wrote:
I challenge you to find a non-scifi/fantasy based game that has evoked anywhere near the passionate emotional attachment of players to characters in those games.


Sammeeeees. We're a small group who are emotionally attached to our characters. This is set in real world, current time. And if Mr Alan Johnson hurts any of The Five, Nedd, Cathy, or Ben, we're gonna go beserk!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:18 am
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Lovek
Unfettered


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 434

Honestly I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but I think one could argue that while Who Is Benjamin Stove undoubtedly had a sci-fi element, that wasn't really what contributed to the players' attachment to Tucker and Debunkette.

What I'm saying is, I think that's a case where you could have actually done away with the possible aliens/crop circles, put those characters in any story, and there would still be a very high level of attachment. And I would argue that the reason for that is that those characters were very "real."

On the other hand, I didn't play any of the games Phaedra mentioned, so I assume I will be pounded into submission shortly Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:19 am
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