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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
How real is too real?
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Lovek
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 434
Phaedra wrote:
<sigh>

Okay, you can argue theory (and, I suppose, be rude to cather) all you want, you can ignore facts, numbers, demographic information, and precedent in favor of your opinion, and you can ignore everything we tell you, and we can't stop you.

So, go ahead, make your uber-realistic ARG -- alone, against everyone's advice -- where people can't tell if it's really a game, and enjoy having it go the way of all the identical attempts that have gone before. Rolling Eyes


Well, at least you weren't rude.

I'd also add that there facts, numbers, demographic information, and precedent that say a romantic comedy or historical drama can be VERY popular.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:09 pm
Last edited by Lovek on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cooler_King
Boot


Joined: 06 Nov 2006
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Phaedra wrote:
<sigh>

Okay, you can argue theory (and, I suppose, be rude to cather) all you want, you can ignore facts, numbers, demographic information, and precedent in favor of your opinion, and you can ignore everything we tell you, and we can't stop you.

So, go ahead, make your uber-realistic ARG -- alone, against everyone's advice -- where people can't tell if it's really a game, and enjoy having it go the way of all the identical attempts that have gone before. Rolling Eyes


This is getting on my nerves now a little. Mainly due to the peoples express mission to try and tell me the ARG's I enjoy are wrong so lets just clear this up shall we

If I was rude to Cather it was because of the condescending nature of the post regarding my opinion.

Phaedra, you say I am alone against EVERYONES advice. Everyone? You mean the limited people who have contributed to this thread of which there are not many who represent a microcosm of the UF forums who in turn only represent a fraction of gamers.

I can name many many many succesful adventure games that are 'hyper-realistic' and not just in the ARG verse. What I think has happened here is you had no response to my earlier posts.

And..furthermore..my quote about my friends and there opinion of movies..I have the luxury of NOT being a social commentator or movie critic therefore, guess what, I can actually think what I like.

Also, I know a thing or two about acting, having once been one. So just briefly, almost ALL of the greatest motion picture actors in the last three decades have used Stanislavsky's method as their prime conduit for expressing emotion. Brando, De Niro, Hoffman

It seems the popular world is siding me in asking for realism and the ARG world in it's limited sense agrees with yourselves.

Apologies to Krystle...got carried away in rant Laughing

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:13 pm
Last edited by Cooler_King on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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 		Another interesting anecdote as it relates to realism and the assertion that that's What The Market Wants.......

During beta testing for Majestic, it was apparently much more realistic than in the final game. Players got many more phone calls and interactions from the in-game characters...at all hours of the day or night.

The surprising result: Despite screaming that they wanted more realism, dammit! the players' response to all this interaction was that they pretty much HATED IT. It was way too much, intruded way too much on their real lives, jobs, etc.

Just sayin.....this whole Uber-Realism idea isn't new by any means, and there's plenty of data out there about failed attempts to be able to draw some pretty good conclusions about it beyond "my friends think it would be cool." Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:16 pm
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Cooler_King
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vpisteve wrote:
Another interesting anecdote as it relates to realism and the assertion that that's What The Market Wants.......

During beta testing for Majestic, it was apparently much more realistic than in the final game. Players got many more phone calls and interactions from the in-game characters...at all hours of the day or night.

The surprising result: Despite screaming that they wanted more realism, dammit! the players' response to all this interaction was that they pretty much HATED IT. It was way too much, intruded way too much on their real lives, jobs, etc.

Just sayin.....this whole Uber-Realism idea isn't new by any means, and there's plenty of data out there about failed attempts to be able to draw some pretty good conclusions about it beyond "my friends think it would be cool." Smile


Again, quoting failed attempts, Majestic failed because it was pay to play.

Are you all forgetting the successful games!

And my opinion of 'what my buddies think is cool' is (funnily enough) a pretty accurate representation of what the public think is cool.

Grand Theft Auto Vice City. They love it. It was voted Best Game of ALL time at E3

Da Vinci Code. They are fascinated. Like the entire Western world.

The truth is you can try taking the academic moral high ground all you want but the best barometer of what people like is listening to the people around you.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:18 pm
Last edited by Cooler_King on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lovek
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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 		It just seems to me that on one hand there are alot of complaints about there being nothing new in ARGs, they're all just carbon copies of what's been done, etc. But on the other hand we're arguing that the scope of what an ARG can be about is limited to basically one genre... if anyone is going to play it, that is.

If both of these are true, I'd say this whole ARG thing will burn out in a year or two.

I think it's silly to say that an ARG can only be popular if it has supernatural elements of some kind. To say that someone can't use their imagination just because the plot is set in the real world just doesn't make sense. And there are plenty of facts to back THAT up to.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:19 pm
Last edited by Lovek on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Phaedra
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 		Lovek: I'm not saying it has to be one genre. I'm not saying that it has to have fantasy or supernatural elements.

I don't know how many times I have to say that.

I'm saying making an ARG that's so realistic that players aren't sure whether it's a game is a bad idea, and refuting the idea that supernatural or scifi elements will make it less popular.

If you make a non-confusing game in a "realistic" setting, fine. I'm all for *that*.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:20 pm
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Lovek
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Phaedra wrote:
Lovek: I'm not saying it has to be one genre.

I don't know how many times I have to say that.

I'm saying making an ARG that's so realistic that players aren't sure whether it's a game is a bad idea.


I'm not necessarily arguing with what you individually have said Phaedra.
You're right, no one wants to play an ARG, watch a movie, or read a book about some guy drinking his coffee. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of territory to cover that's set in our current, modern, everyday world.

I can come up with a couple of plots that would work well for an ARG that might be (to bring it up again) a romantic comedy or some other real world drama. But this starts the "Art of the Heist" popularity v. "The Beast" popularity argument again.

OK, just read you're updated post.

I say again: Phaedra, you're right.

(And I'm not being sarcastic.)

I think we're all talking in circles and can generally agree on the basics, so I'll be leaving it at that Smile Y'all can go on without me if you want.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:24 pm
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Phaedra
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Lovek wrote:
I'm not necessarily arguing with what you individually have said Phaedra.
You're right, no one wants to play an ARG, watch a movie, or read a book about some guy drinking his coffee. But that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of territory to cover that's set in our current, modern, everyday world.

I can come up with a couple of plots that would work well for an ARG that might be (to bring it up again) a romantic comedy or some other real world drama. But this starts the "Art of the Heist" popularity v. "The Beast" popularity argument again.


You're still not understanding what I'm saying. I agree that an ARG that was based on a "real-world" drama could work.

It just has to be clear that it's a game. There needs to be some sort of metacommunication to that effect. A movie does it automatically (this is not really happening, even if it could) because it's confined to a screen.

An ARG is not, and therefore if it's going to be based on a realistic plotline, it needs send that message in another way.

That is what I'm saying. I'm not talking about genre -- I'm talking about whether or not players are potentially tricked into thinking it's real. As long as it's clear it's fiction, I think it's got a chance.

ETA: Okay, just read your edit. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:30 pm
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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Cooler_King wrote:

Again, quoting failed attempts, Majestic failed because it was pay to play.

Are you all forgetting the successful games!

And my opinion of 'what my buddies think is cool' is (funnily enough) a pretty accurate representation of what the public think is cool.

Grand Theft Auto Vice City. They love it. It was voted Best Game of ALL time at E3

Da Vinci Code. They are fascinated. Like the entire Western world.

The truth is you can try taking the academic moral high ground all you want but the best barometer of what people like is listening to the people around you.


Sorry, my point about Majestic had nothing to do with why it failed (that's a whole 'nother run-into-the-ground-already topic). I was trying to say that, despite the thought that The More Realism, the Better, it turned out to be not so much the case, during testing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than all for Trying New Things......but when there is a history that can be looked at involving those who came before who tried those very things, that history really shouldn't be ignored, ya know?

And btw....I'm more from the Reality camp than the Academic Moral High Ground camp. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:33 pm
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Pixiestix
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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Cooler_King wrote:

This is getting on my nerves now a little.


Now you know how we feel.
Cooler_King wrote:

Mainly due to the peoples express mission to try and tell me the ARG's I enjoy are wrong


I don't think anyone is telling you that.

Cooler_King wrote:

Phaedra, you say I am alone against EVERYONES advice. Everyone? You mean the limited people who have contributed to this thread of which there are not many who represent a microcosm of the UF forums who in turn only represent a fraction of gamers.


WOW, okay, now hear this - go read the PM forums, and see JUST how many people agree with them that you shouldn't do this alone, also look and see how many people say you should be involved int he community, play the games, maybe be BTS before you even ATTEMPT to create a game. Yes, the word everyone is exagerated - not by much.

Cooler_King wrote:

I can name many many many succesful adventure games that are 'hyper-realistic' and not just in the ARG verse.

Enlighten me, but, thing is - we aren't talking about other genre's of gaming, we are JUST talking about ARGing, so name the ARGing examples and give some details for those of us who may not have played.

Cooler_King wrote:

And..furthermore..my quote about my friends and there opinion of movies..I have the luxury of NOT being a social commentator or movie critic therefore, guess what, I can actually think what I like.

I can't speak for her, but i took her comments as saying you have bias, as does everyone, and your friends will usually share your tastes. Therefore, you {with your taste & bias} and your friends {similar taste & bias} being used as the end all be all for if a movie or book is good or not does not make it good, just makes it good in your eyes. nothing WRONG with it being good in your eyes, but don't base the success of said movie/book on that fact.

Cooler_King wrote:

It seems the popular world is siding me in asking for realism and the ARG world in it's limited sense agrees with yourselves.

I really have no idea what this was supposed to say.

what are these camps, and can i bring the smores???
EDIT TO ADD_ by the way, most ARGs are not ad camps - as you previously stated. Yes, many popular ones have been - but grass roots games are always in abundance.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:34 pm
Last edited by Pixiestix on Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lovek
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Phaedra wrote:


ETA: Okay, just read your edit. Smile


We've got to stop doing that! Wink

So I'll sum up my view in short, and I believe that, now, Phaedra will agree.


There is no problem with a real-world ARG. As long as it's not boring and the players' don't have to do the "Is this part 'real' or not" game. However, as Phaedra pointed out, players tend to be more drawn toward the sci-fi/fantasy games.

And I'll concede that MAYBE this is because it's easier to draw the line between what's real and what's Memorex...er.... fiction. But.. .I don't really know.

However, I still think that the day will come when the Savior of PMs will show her/himself and say "Oh, it's so simple, we can let the player's know this isn't real, but keep TINAG, just by doing <this>"

And thus enter the golden age of ARGs where real is fake and fake is real and everyone knows the difference but can imagine they don't Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:37 pm
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Phaedra
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Lovek wrote:
Phaedra wrote:


ETA: Okay, just read your edit. Smile


We've got to stop doing that! Wink

So I'll sum up my view in short, and I believe that, now, Phaedra will agree.


There is no problem with a real-world ARG. As long as it's not boring and the players' don't have to do the "Is this part 'real' or not" game. However, as Phaedra pointed out, players tend to be more drawn toward the sci-fi/fantasy games.

And I'll concede that MAYBE this is because it's easier to draw the line between what's real and what's Memorex...er.... fiction. But.. .I don't really know.

However, I still think that the day will come when the Savior of PMs will show her/himself and say "Oh, it's so simple, we can let the player's know this isn't real, but keep TINAG, just by doing <this>"

And thus enter the golden age of ARGs where real is fake and fake is real and everyone knows the difference but can imagine they don't Very Happy


Yup, that I agree with.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:52 pm
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krystyn
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Quote:
Krystle

That's a new one.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:59 pm
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konamouse
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Cooler_King wrote:
Grand Theft Auto Vice City. They love it. It was voted Best Game of ALL time at E3


When I first read this, I thought you were saying this would be great in an ARG where we don't know if it's real or ARG....

All I could think is "If someone steals my car, that is NOT a game and I'm calling the cops and going to be very pissed off".

We have to draw lines against invasion of privacy, destruction of personal property, and putting life in danger.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:50 pm
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JohnLockeGuy
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 		For something ARGish that definitely oversteps the boundary into too-real...

http://www.truthofthespoon.net

That's just creepy.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:21 pm
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