Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
 
The time now is Wed Nov 13, 2024 1:43 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)
View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » Puppetmaster Help
Too Much Backstory?
Moderators: imbri
View previous topicView next topic
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]  
Author Message
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Too Much Backstory?

I am not planning on launching anything anytime soon, and I am playing games now, so I don't believe that I'm rushing into anything. What I am doing is slowly thinking about a game I want to eventually create.

I have fancied myself a writer for much of my life and have one mega-story that has been in development for literally years. Over time these characters have gotten backstories that are all still "there" but most of which aren't even reflected in the writing that I've done. My latest idea is to reform this story into an ARG, eventually.

The potential problem I can forsee is putting too much of this mostly-dead backstory in discoverable locations. It would be relatively easy (it's all invented, has been thought over for cohesiveness for years, etc) but I worry that players would get too far off of the trail.

I could probably engineer in hints as to what is important and what is not, without breaking realism too seriously. I'm still finding myself wondering if players won't devour everything anyway and insist that if it's available, it's important.

Does anyone have experience (on either side of the curtain) that will confirm my fears or put them to rest? Has there been an ARG with significant amounts of non-important discoverable information? Did it cause frustration or greater immersement?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:18 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Ehsan
Entrenched

Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 992

I think it ultimately comes down to you to find the perfect balance. For me personally there's no such thing as too much back-story because it just creates greater immersion.

The point you have to watch for though is translating the back-story into a presentable form for the players. Regardless of how much you have already written, when it comes time to turn it into content you might find that it requires even more work. For example consider if you wrote the educational history of a character. If you're going for website breadth you might represent that with a website for every educational institution they went to and the accompanying content, graphics, and code for each. If you're going for an in-depth blog you might have to write entries dating 10 years back.

If you do manage to create all that content, then you have to focus issue of guiding the players to the main trail. Updating specific content and reacting to player interaction with the game universe will help players determine which areas to focus on, and understand that other areas are just filler as they have not made any actionable difference to the game.

As you run the game, being a PM becomes an interactive and iterative process. You'll have 90% of the work already done, but you'll write another 90% after you launch (yeah I'm 80% outside of a full circle, that's how hard it is Wink). It ultimately comes down to how you shape the players' expectations and guide them through the main trail.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:58 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Ehsan wrote:
The point you have to watch for though is translating the back-story into a presentable form for the players. Regardless of how much you have already written, when it comes time to turn it into content you might find that it requires even more work. For example consider if you wrote the educational history of a character. If you're going for website breadth you might represent that with a website for every educational institution they went to and the accompanying content, graphics, and code for each. If you're going for an in-depth blog you might have to write entries dating 10 years back.


I have details such as many of my characters went to highschool together and lost touch. I hadn't even thought about creating some highschool website or anything. I'm thinking more along the lines of significant others of characters who honestly know nothing about the main plot. Having a statistically realistic amount of the characters having blogs and whatnot, even though they will never reveal anything to do with the plot. Things like that. How many players will see that this character is three levels removed from the main characters, happens to have a blog, and will spend weeks pouring over the content looking for the clue that must be there since the blog exists?

Ehsan wrote:
If you do manage to create all that content, then you have to focus issue of guiding the players to the main trail. Updating specific content and reacting to player interaction with the game universe will help players determine which areas to focus on, and understand that other areas are just filler as they have not made any actionable difference to the game.


It wouldn't be too realistic if an unimportant character gets 100 emails asking about someone they don't know about, but they still just let the emails go unanswered. Same with comments in their blog. I suppose that the answer then is to either only let main characters have any sort of contact information (which feels cheap, possibly only because I already know these characters, even if they're unimportant) or hope that stark denial of knowledge will be enough.

Ehsan wrote:
As you run the game, being a PM becomes an interactive and iterative process. You'll have 90% of the work already done, but you'll write another 90% after you launch (yeah I'm 80% outside of a full circle, that's how hard it is Wink). It ultimately comes down to how you shape the players' expectations and guide them through the main trail.


Funnily enough I just read a quote saying "The first 90% of your code takes 90% of the development time. The last 10% takes 90% of your development time."

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:07 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
rowan
Unfictologist

Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966

negativeview wrote:
How many players will see that this character is three levels removed from the main characters, happens to have a blog, and will spend weeks pouring over the content looking for the clue that must be there since the blog exists?

It depends on what else you give them to look at. If you only happen to have one or two other sites for the players to peruse, they will latch onto a new site and go over it with a fine tooth comb - especially if it is a fairly comprehensive blog.

On the other hand, if you have like 5, 10, 15 fairly well-devloped sites and you throw out a blog that doesn't have nearly the sophistication that the other sites, players tend not to obsess over them as much (although, you will always have those one or two people who are dead certain that there is a clue that will blow the whole game wide open).

I'm with Ehsan in that there can never be enough backstory. Nothing bothers me more than feeling like the games are exsisting in a bubble - nothing happened before and nothing will happen after the game. My favorite game was AotH - partly because they gave us tons of backstory to go through. It never went anywhere for the most part, but it did make me feel closer to the characters as I went back through their lives. It also gives me a sense of hope for the game - that a PM who is willing to invest so much time and energy to make things real is a PM who has a vision for the game and is not one who will bail simply because they get bored with it.
_________________
follow @arg_deaddrop on twitter

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:00 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

rowan wrote:
On the other hand, if you have like 5, 10, 15 fairly well-devloped sites and you throw out a blog that doesn't have nearly the sophistication that the other sites, players tend not to obsess over them as much (although, you will always have those one or two people who are dead certain that there is a clue that will blow the whole game wide open).


The eventual goal will indeed have several well developed sites. It will probably also have characters with blogs. I don't want to make any of the blogs overly developed, to keep with the realism. They will all probably use provided-by-the-blog-service templates. If the only way I can signal unimportant blogs are the relative sophistication, I would either need to make one or more of the blogs overly sophisticated, or not reveal anything important in a blog.

My general theory was that if the players are trying to find out something about character-A, they might look at his or her blog, especially if they're researching things about a specific day or time period. Are blogs going to be an all-or-nothing kind of thing?

I would almost be tempted to red-herring the players that insist on obsessing. Nah, that'd be mean.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:12 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

I think backstory can also be formed to fit the sort of experience you're hoping the audience will get - in other words, less can be more.

In situations where WHO your characters are, and HOW they relate to each other is a big mystery, keeping the backstory minimal (while still providing enough content to keep people engaged) can be really effective. Players will likely spend a good amount of time trying to fill in the gaps, which can have a similar effect to the one Rowan mentioned above, in that they can feel closer to the characters, because they've invested so much time and thought over what might have happened, and what is happening in the present moment of the game.

It's tricky, though: you don't want to be stingy, or deliberately obtuse, just for the sake of being mysterious. You also don't really want to leave too many gaps where YOU don't know the informational filler - having internal consistency is just as important in an ARG as it is in a novel or screenplay. Immersive fiction can be very exciting and unpredictable, but cultivating trust in the story and the details can be an incredible boon to your game's playerbase.
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:20 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Ah! This comment really got me thinking.

krystyn wrote:
In situations where WHO your characters are, and HOW they relate to each other is a big mystery, keeping the backstory minimal (while still providing enough content to keep people engaged) can be really effective. Players will likely spend a good amount of time trying to fill in the gaps, which can have a similar effect to the one Rowan mentioned above, in that they can feel closer to the characters, because they've invested so much time and thought over what might have happened, and what is happening in the present moment of the game.


This is a large part of the early parts of the game (assuming it's not rearranged). One of the things that I dislike about current games (dislike mostly because it's done in virtually all of them) is that there's always a character that knows everything but won't tell you. I'm trying instead to have the players find out things about the characters that they don't even know themselves. Nobody of importance is hiding information.

krystyn wrote:
It's tricky, though: you don't want to be stingy, or deliberately obtuse, just for the sake of being mysterious. You also don't really want to leave too many gaps where YOU don't know the informational filler - having internal consistency is just as important in an ARG as it is in a novel or screenplay.


Since you're the one that so succiently explained one of my design goals, what do you think about the above example. Is it as bad as being deliberately obtuse if the characters that you interact with honestly don't know any more than they're telling you?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:31 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

negativeview wrote:
Funnily enough I just read a quote saying "The first 90% of your code takes 90% of the development time. The last 10% takes 90% of your development time."


Heh, except in this case it's more like: you think you have 10% left, and you acknowledge that that 10% will be hard and take up more time than the 90% you've already done, and then you discover that what you thought was the 90% you had done was only actually 9%.

I don't think the question of how much backstory is too much can be answered well outside of the context of an individual game, though. For me it depends on a number of factors. Creating depth is good, but info for its own sake gets old, fast.

ARGs, by their very nature, ask their audience to go through every bit of writing they present with the proverbial fine-toothed comb. If you're giving people information just to create depth, you're risking burnout on the part of your players.

Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, because all of my favorite ARGs have had the same head writer, so it's possible I'm just used to his style, but...

Looking at a "distributed narrative" that's scattered over many different media and often in many separate pieces even within a medium, it's easy to miss that the best examples are still extremely tightly-constructed narratives. There may be a lot of information, there may be a lot of "world" to explore, but they don't just have backstory out there for the sake of creating "depth" or "immersion" or what have you. If there's backstory, it's because it tells you something relevant about a character that will be important later.

In the examples I'm thinking of, even simple parataxis is never meaningless. If the narrative says, "Betsy was from the South, and liked nice people," while I might be tempted to think, "so what? we like nice people in the Midwest, too..." but you can bet that some how the space between that simple juxtaposition is going to be filled, and it's going to be the crux upon which some of the character's actions turn, or a clue in how we should interact with her.

So. In an ARG, your audience is going to be dissecting every piece of information they get. If I'm putting that much time, effort, and attention into reading something, at the end of the day, I'm going to be a little annoyed if it doesn't meet three criteria:

1. It's interesting and well-written for its own sake;
2. It tells me something important about the people it involves; and
3. It is going to come back to haunt me later in the story.

I'm not a fan of depth merely for depth's sake. ARGs, like any narrative, aren't real. Most of real life is boring. This is why good authors are selective in the details they give about characters. If you, as the author, are telling me something about a character's life, I want it to be a detail that matters. I don't really care about their grocery list unless it's significant, somehow.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:38 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Phaedra wrote:
Take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt


I wouldn't be in this forum asking for advice if I didn't expect and even welcome people against whatever I'm proposing. I think we learn more from people who disagree or just simply have different viewpoints than we ever can from those that blindly agree with us.

Phaedra wrote:
Heh, except in this case it's more like: you think you have 10% left, and you acknowledge that that 10% will be hard and take up more time than the 90% you've already done, and then you discover that what you thought was the 90% you had done was only actually 9%.


Unfortunately it seems like that's more accurate in software, too. But it doesn't fit in as few words as the previous.

Phaedra wrote:
Creating depth is good, but info for its own sake gets old, fast.

ARGs, by their very nature, ask their audience to go through every bit of writing they present with the proverbial fine-toothed comb. If you're giving people information just to create depth, you're risking burnout on the part of your players.


This is the viewpoint I was wondering about. I understand it (the very reason I posted here was that I can see both sides and wondered which was the more common) and want to take it into full consideration.

I don't have much more to say in response to you. Except that I was to reiterate how early I am in this process. I may well find a way to work some "irrelevant" information into relevant pieces. In the end, the sheer amount of stuff that I "know" about these characters that are not worked directly into the plot may shrink to zero.

Justifications for why you hate/love random background information is key here, so that if I can't find a use for information, I know how much to cut.

The rest of what you wrote is completely valid and I'm listening to it, I just didn't have anything that felt like it needed a direct reply.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:49 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

negativeview wrote:
I don't have much more to say in response to you. Except that I was to reiterate how early I am in this process. I may well find a way to work some "irrelevant" information into relevant pieces. In the end, the sheer amount of stuff that I "know" about these characters that are not worked directly into the plot may shrink to zero.


I guess, then, that the best advice I can give you is make sure whatever you include in the way of backstory is something that you'd enjoy reading.
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:20 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
negativeview
Decorated


Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Huntsville, AL USA

Phaedra wrote:
negativeview wrote:
I don't have much more to say in response to you. Except that I was to reiterate how early I am in this process. I may well find a way to work some "irrelevant" information into relevant pieces. In the end, the sheer amount of stuff that I "know" about these characters that are not worked directly into the plot may shrink to zero.


I guess, then, that the best advice I can give you is make sure whatever you include in the way of backstory is something that you'd enjoy reading.


Looking at the quote of me, I realize that I could have come across as snippy. The reason I had nothing much to say to you is because I am still processing what you said, not for any snippy reasons. Embarassed

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:22 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

negativeview wrote:
Phaedra wrote:
negativeview wrote:
I don't have much more to say in response to you. Except that I was to reiterate how early I am in this process. I may well find a way to work some "irrelevant" information into relevant pieces. In the end, the sheer amount of stuff that I "know" about these characters that are not worked directly into the plot may shrink to zero.


I guess, then, that the best advice I can give you is make sure whatever you include in the way of backstory is something that you'd enjoy reading.


Looking at the quote of me, I realize that I could have come across as snippy. The reason I had nothing much to say to you is because I am still processing what you said, not for any snippy reasons. Embarassed


Oh no! Shocked I didn't read it as snippy at all. Don't worry about it. Smile
_________________
Voted Most Likely to Thread-Jack and Most Patient Explainer in the ILoveBees Awards.

World Champion: Cruel 2B Kind


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:29 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago

negativeview wrote:
One of the things that I dislike about current games (dislike mostly because it's done in virtually all of them) is that there's always a character that knows everything but won't tell you. I'm trying instead to have the players find out things about the characters that they don't even know themselves. Nobody of importance is hiding information.

krystyn wrote:
It's tricky, though: you don't want to be stingy, or deliberately obtuse, just for the sake of being mysterious. You also don't really want to leave too many gaps where YOU don't know the informational filler - having internal consistency is just as important in an ARG as it is in a novel or screenplay.


Since you're the one that so succiently explained one of my design goals, what do you think about the above example. Is it as bad as being deliberately obtuse if the characters that you interact with honestly don't know any more than they're telling you?


I'm now a little curious as to specific examples of omniscient characters you've observed in the current games. Can you name some of them?

Also, I'd be wary of heading down a dev path for your game where you do something simply because it goes against the current 'trends' you perceive in the genre. Sometimes, what works ... works! Just because you may see the same idea repeated in two or three games, doesn't make those puppetmasters unoriginal or lacking innovation. You'd be surprised at how much coincidence happens when you launch a game, and find that several of your puzzles, sources, heck, even character names are echoed in another game.

I'd take a hard look at your gaming peeves and break 'em down further, honestly, and see what people might've been trying to accomplish, and where you feel they might be weak. As backwards as it sounds, this might really help to inform your characters, as they will have solid reasons (motivation on their part, game theory on yours) to do what they do within the construct of a puzzle mechanic.

To answer your question: my personal experience with writing characters who don't know everything about themselves (and the part they play in the bigger picture) is pretty intense. It can be done, though, and to fun effect. You may deprive players of their sleep! Internal consistency is the most important benchmark, though: you want to hit logical surety at pretty much every single update you make.
_________________
Alternate Currency
Stories and dreams, crossing my palm like silver.

xbl gamertag: krystyn


PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:28 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Even if the players never see 99% of your backstory it is important to think about it and talk about it to your assisting PMs.
Please note I can only really talk about Orbital Colony that I helped PM, but to me the back story and fleshing out the background scenery helped when I was in live chat sessions so I didn't have to think about the answers, I knew the answers because of the surrounding information I had. It also meant that other PMs could fill in on blog entries and such when needed, because they had the same information I had. For example, we had a bit where Professor Bronco had stuffed his favorite cat when it died and had it sitting on a desk somewhere. I don't think we ever actually used that bit of information but it helped us to set the mood when other characters were describing him, because they had seen the cat! Useless trivia, but it helped set the feeling of just what kind of a adversary we had. Background can show up in the oddest places as well, an offhand comment in an e-mail exchange between charaters, used as part of a larger puzzle, and to just expand the horizon in the game universe.

I like knowing that the characters have more to them than what I can see, it makes them feel more three dimentional and not so much a cardboad cut out.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:35 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]  
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » Puppetmaster Help
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group