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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Lonelygirl15 / OpAphid
[META] Where are the Unfictioners watching Cassie?
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Phaedra
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theShaggy wrote:
Not here, over at the LG15 forum. In this locked thread. Which is what prompted THIS thread.


Oh whew. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:25 pm
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Cu Roi
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theShaggy wrote:
I do understand why people would be averse to it, I just find that over here, we're a bit more tolerant of such things.

Sorry, I feel like I need to clarify. As soon as people learn about what happened to my family, they tend to gloss over what I'm actually saying. It's like someone dropped a crate of eggshells into the room(which is my fault, and I understand the reaction, but I'm a big boy Wink Feel free to do jumping-jacks on the eggshells)

I never condone any censorship, and the Mods there know that...at least the ones at AC do.

I watched the video, saw the images, & left to hit the park. My pulse didn't flutter a bit. I've seen far worse. It was only after some thought about it that my conscience kicked in. I let them know, because I figured they were rushed since the previous drop was jacked and just used what was convienient (It was akin to leaving the theater and then poking holes in the plot and noticing flaws in a film).

As far as the cult killing thing, she used it because the clues were based off of Helter Skelter. It's been overused, from an artistic view, and is ultimately lame. The picture was inserted for shock value. She would have raised the impact if she had grabbed some Karo syrup and some food coloring and staged a unique murder scene. An original murder scene could have actually contained pertinent clues, and advanced the story. Imagine that!!! Something other than Jumbled Morse Code!

I'm pretty hard on her, but I'm just trying to get her to elevate to experience. I'm here till the bitter end. Seriously. Does it look like I've started to picket the forums? If there is ever a curtain call for this, I'll buy the PM or PMs a drink. Staging an ARG is tough.

Censorship is the refuge of those that cannot muster a valid argument. If you can't turn minds to your side of a debate through dialogue...then you'r e probably wrong to begin with. It's the tool of inelegant tyranny.

Still, it was a tacky move. If you want an example of how to run a game, that was along similar lines and treated the subject with dignity and class, go check out Last Call Poker. That actually had video of murders! It's not about gore or the thought of something tragic, it's how you present it, and placing your audience into a specific state of mind.

It's good storytelling vs. sloppy storytelling.

Again, I'm just trying to let you all understand, where I'm coming from. The subject of murder is not taboo. It's a fact of life, and one which I have experience with. An experience that has given me authority to speak about it. My point is, if you're going to bring it into the discussion, you had better be able to discuss it intelligently and with some understanding. If not then you're going to seem as foolish as an armchair historian telling a WWII vet what the experience on Normandy was really like.

Anyway, back to figuring out why Cassie is haunting us!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:43 pm
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Phaedra
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Cu Roi wrote:
If you want an example of how to run a game, that was along similar lines and treated the subject with dignity and class, go check out Last Call Poker. That actually had video of murders! It's not about gore or the thought of something tragic, it's how you present it, and placing your audience into a specific state of mind.

It's good storytelling vs. sloppy storytelling!


Far, far be it from me to ever suggest that 42 is not the Answer To Life, The Universe, And Everything (and the gold standard for ARGs, as I am an unabashed and unapologetic 42 fangirl), and that most PMs would not benefit from emulating them in spirit, but emulating them in style may be difficult when one doesn't have a large production team and when Activision isn't footing one's bills.

A lot of what 42 does succeeds because they have genius and mad talent, but some of it works because they have more tangible resources as well, I think. Smile

So I don't know that it's really fair to compare the two. I think you're right in that you can look at LCP and say, look, there's an example of a game that treated the subject with respect and class, but I don't know that the answer is for the Cassie PM(s) to try to stage their own murder scene.

When you're running a grassroots game, I think it's easier to make professional-looking content (like staging your own murder rather than using pictures of another) without spending a lot when you either have a lot of time, a lot of connections (friends in a theatre group, etc.) or a lot of team members. The Cassie PM(s) may not have any of those advantages.

So, I didn't like the use of the Manson photos, but go easy on the PMs. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:55 pm
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Cu Roi
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 		Yeah, every time I go back and review one of my posts lately, I come across more harshly than I really intended too. I am having a good time, especially because the new peeps this has brought in are in awe of ARGs at the moment, and it's great to watch!

In this age, making something look good is pretty easy. Karo syrup is cheap, and digital photos can be maniplated to the extreme. Cassie obviously has some gear and some experience using it. 42 does have the cash and the resources to stage large scale events and clues across the nation. You can only buy that kind of muscle. Still, you don't need those resources to write a compelling story, and setup a treasure hunt in your backyard. This is after all, a pretty local, small scale ARG that simply has a MASSIVE audience. I was referencing LCP because even if it had been a grassroots game, with no video, and a handful of players, it had a good story and the way that they used death and the memorial sites invoked awe and respect...while being a truckload of fun.

You can fake muscle by using smoke and mirrors but you can't fake good style.

Btw...I wonder what 42 has been working on? Sneaky bastards!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:00 pm
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 		I personally think the manson thing was dropped in to root out kids who are unprepared and probably don't know what a ARG is. too many of them latched on from the LG15 connection.

There is a story. If it's linked to LG15 then that's part of the story too. Also I think they're waiting until the unprepared get bored and leave.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:24 pm
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krystyn
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 		So you're suggesting that introducing possibly shocking/offensive/scary content is meant here to limit the audience in a particular way?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:51 pm
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Zazaban
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krystyn wrote:
So you're suggesting that introducing possibly shocking/offensive/scary content is meant here to limit the audience in a particular way?
Yes, the kids that joined only because of the LG15 connection would be rooted out hopefully.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:23 pm
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krystyn
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 		I really don't think that's the case, here. I'd be awfully surprised if it were.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:08 pm
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Phaedra
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Cu Roi wrote:
Cassie obviously has some gear and some experience using it. 42 does have the cash and the resources to stage large scale events and clues across the nation. You can only buy that kind of muscle. Still, you don't need those resources to write a compelling story, and setup a treasure hunt in your backyard. This is after all, a pretty local, small scale ARG that simply has a MASSIVE audience. I was referencing LCP because even if it had been a grassroots game, with no video, and a handful of players, it had a good story and the way that they used death and the memorial sites invoked awe and respect...while being a truckload of fun.

You can fake muscle by using smoke and mirrors but you can't fake good style.

Btw...I wonder what 42 has been working on? Sneaky bastards!


Agreed. And like I said, you won't get any argument from me there; I'm a huge 42 fangirl. And when it comes to respect for and commitment to your audience, as well as your subject matter -- well, that's something that doesn't cost any money.

It's just that in asking myself how would I stage my own murder scene, the more I work it out in my head the more money and time it ends up costing. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:11 pm
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Cu Roi
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Phaedra wrote:
It's just that in asking myself how would I stage my own murder scene, the more I work it out in my head the more money and time it ends up costing. Wink


You must be getting really elaborate with it then!

Well...one could always skip the production costs and do it for real...but then there's all that legal stuff to deal with. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:36 pm
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theShaggy
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Cu Roi wrote:
Sorry, I feel like I need to clarify. As soon as people learn about what happened to my family, they tend to gloss over what I'm actually saying. It's like someone dropped a crate of eggshells into the room(which is my fault, and I understand the reaction, but I'm a big boy Wink Feel free to do jumping-jacks on the eggshells)


I hope I wasn't glossing over what you were saying (people do it to me for very different reasons). In fact, reading your response, I think we are both on exactly the same page in this argument.

Quote:

I never condone any censorship, and the Mods there know that...at least the ones at AC do.


At AC, sure, but at LG15, they lock and (incorrectly - as someone was making NEW connections) trout people who bring up the M-word. Everyone gets in a huff about how someone said his name, and then ignore it. I can even point you (and have) in the direction of the thread which inspired me here.

Quote:

As far as the cult killing thing, she used it because the clues were based off of Helter Skelter. It's been overused, from an artistic view, and is ultimately lame. The picture was inserted for shock value. She would have raised the impact if she had grabbed some Karo syrup and some food coloring and staged a unique murder scene. An original murder scene could have actually contained pertinent clues, and advanced the story. Imagine that!!! Something other than Jumbled Morse Code!


Agreed. However, they used Manson, they used Helter Skelter together. Perhaps it was a bit tasteless, perhaps it was clichee and lame, but at the same time, maybe it's an important clue. It was the overarching theme of one of the videos, so ultimately, it could be a big clue to some aspect. Cassie hasn't, to my knowledge, come out and said "Don't pay attention to that part," so we can't really discount it, uncomfortable or not. You know what I mean?

Quote:
Censorship is the refuge of those that cannot muster a valid argument. If you can't turn minds to your side of a debate through dialogue...then you'r e probably wrong to begin with. It's the tool of inelegant tyranny.


Again (we're in perfect agreement this whole time), that's why I bring up this topic here... I get the feeling that trying to talk about it over at LG15 will get my post locked and/or flamed (or... trouted Wink ).

Quote:
My point is, if you're going to bring it into the discussion, you had better be able to discuss it intelligently and with some understanding. If not then you're going to seem as foolish as an armchair historian telling a WWII vet what the experience on Normandy was really like.


Just to clarify - are you saying that I shouldn't bring it up bcause I don't have the experience necessary to really understand it? No offence taken if you were, I just wasn't entirely sure on this point. Should that be what you meant, I wasn't in any way trying to say anything like that. As I say, we're totally in accord this whole way through Smile

Quote:
Anyway, back to figuring out why Cassie is haunting us!


Yes!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:34 pm
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ravensgrace
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Phaedra wrote:
theShaggy wrote:
"Mods: Can I make the suggestion that any time this topic [manson] comes up, the poster gets a truck out trout dumped on them Twisted Evil, and the thread locked?" Actual quote)


Wait, it said this where? Shocked That's not how we use trout.


Wintermute wrote it.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:23 am
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Cu Roi
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theShaggy wrote:
Cu Roi wrote:
Quote:
My point is, if you're going to bring it into the discussion, you had better be able to discuss it intelligently and with some understanding. If not then you're going to seem as foolish as an armchair historian telling a WWII vet what the experience on Normandy was really like.


Just to clarify - are you saying that I shouldn't bring it up bcause I don't have the experience necessary to really understand it? No offence taken if you were, I just wasn't entirely sure on this point. Should that be what you meant, I wasn't in any way trying to say anything like that. As I say, we're totally in accord this whole way through Smile


Oh no...wasn't aiming that at you...I was speaking about the PMs directly, infering that the game is like a discussion between the Pms and the Players. On a broader scale it does apply to anyone without direct experience trying to dictate to someone who does have firsthand experience.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:29 am
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wintermute740
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Phaedra wrote:
Wait, it said this where? Shocked That's not how we use trout.


That was my quote, and taken entirely out of context. Wanna quote me cross-board? Let me know so I can defend my position Smile

'mute

edit: Also, when posting that reply, I PM'ed the original poster and explained things. It wasn't based on my personal opinion, but the way things work there. The public post was in made in jest.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:15 am
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theShaggy
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 		You're right, it was taken out of context, I apologize for that (I'm not actually hatin' on you, I was just frustratin' on the board, which I've largely gotten over). However, I did post a link to the thread itself (here it is again) for anyone to get the context. And the statement was still pretty clear: "You mention Manson, you get trouted and the thread gets locked." It wasn't you specifically that I was attacking, but the reactionary stance of the board to assume that Manson's confirmed presence in a CiW canon video was an invalid clue because it made some kids cover their eyes.

If I am wrong, please let me know. For all I could be aware, the specific speculation (which was also branded as "jumping to conclusions" because it wasn't the right anagram) could have been brought up before, and I missed it under the piles of messages Smile If I've totally got the whole thing bungled up, I'm man enough to admit I'm wrong - after a fight, of course ;-P
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:32 am
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