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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Looking for AV
[META] IG/OOG Etiquette
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maradydd
Boot

Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 53

 		[META] IG/OOG Etiquette
I'm starting to get disturbed by some matters of courtesy in this game, with respect to two things: how the PMs and players are interacting, and how the players are interacting with other players.

First, just to make sure everyone's on the same page: as everyone knows, uF is out-of-game. There are two IRC channels; #av is out-of-game, #lookingforav is in-game. (I'm not sure what the IG/OOG status for the forums that AngBa and ardiente set up is, but they aren't relevant to this post anyway.)

This game has an extremely tight playerbase, which has been a good thing in a number of ways. I've made some new friends here, which is part of the point of ARGing, and I've had fun, which is entirely the point of ARGing.

However, recent events in #av have led a number of players, myself included, to question the legitimacy of this game. Players are concerned that the PMs are lurking in the channel and using the OOG information discussed there as if it were IG information. If this is actually the case, then it's both disturbing and a violation of Unfiction rules.

I will unequivocally state that I will not participate in an ARG where the PMs are not following the rules that Unforum-based games are supposed to follow. This game started off with emails sent to several uF users; it should be safe to assume that the PMs are aware of those rules.

I can't say that I've yet seen any direct evidence that matters discussed on channel or in the forum have been "passed on to characters" by the PMs. We have seen a lot of misdirection and in-game dishonesty, which should completely be expected; for instance, there was quite a lot of confusion created tonight when an NPC was chatting with several players' characters and the NPC fabricated chat logs between herself and one of the player characters. (In less general terms: Sarah claimed to Mycroft and randomtrickpony that Wabonan was saying things about them that he actually wasn't.) That's all kosher. It's confusing, but it's kosher.

However, what I have seen is a couple of lurkers in channel being "called out" and challenged by channel admins, then ultimately kickbanned as suspected PMs or PM spies. I'm nervous about this because I would prefer not to see people just getting into the game being booted unceremoniously because they're not already part of the club. I realise that for someone to know about #av, it should be expected that they've read at least enough of the forums to know the channel exists, and in that case, they should be fairly well up to speed on the game. But they might have skimmed, or paid attention to some things but not others; not everyone participates all the time, so lurkerhood shouldn't be an automatic suspicion of guilt. Please, let's be polite to other players.

In conclusion -- it may be the case that "succubi don't follow the rules", but PMs had damn well better, or they're rapidly going to run out of players to play their games. If the PMs have been trying to influence OOG activity or using OOG information unfairly, I hope that comes to an end immediately. I also hope that the players continue to treat both each other and new players with respect.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:12 am
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ardiente
Veteran

Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 104
Location: London

 		Re: [META] IG/OOG Etiquette
maradydd wrote:
I'm not sure what the IG/OOG status for the forums that AngBa and ardiente set up is, but they aren't relevant to this post anyway.)


Just to clarify...

The path site's (http://pathlab.blogspot.com/) status may seem a bit ambiguous to some, 'cause we used it for a moment or two when the UF forums were down. I left a few artefacts from that time on it by mistake, but its cleaned out now and should be regarded as in-game.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:46 am
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addlepated
Unfictologist


Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 1885
Location: Austin, Texas

 		Re: [META] IG/OOG Etiquette
maradydd wrote:
However, what I have seen is a couple of lurkers in channel being "called out" and challenged by channel admins, then ultimately kickbanned as suspected PMs or PM spies. I'm nervous about this because I would prefer not to see people just getting into the game being booted unceremoniously because they're not already part of the club. I realise that for someone to know about #av, it should be expected that they've read at least enough of the forums to know the channel exists, and in that case, they should be fairly well up to speed on the game. But they might have skimmed, or paid attention to some things but not others; not everyone participates all the time, so lurkerhood shouldn't be an automatic suspicion of guilt. Please, let's be polite to other players.

While a PM using OOG channels and OOG information to feed to characters and react to players is wrong, having a PM lurk in the channel gives the PM team valuable input as to how the players are doing, what they like, what they don't like, and the PMs can use _that_ information to tweak the game into a more enjoyable experience.

Kicking off lurkers because you think they're PM spies is cutting off your nose to save your face. Not only will the PMs not have an immediate feedback channel to try to make changes for the players, but if you're actually kicking off rubberneckers or newbies, you've just "welcomed" them to the world of ARGing by placing a boot in their behinds. You think they'll come back?

AV PMs, y'all should know better than to use OOG information against the players, and if that's not what's happening here, I apologize for the scolding. But channel admins, you should also know better than to kick off the lurkers just because you think they might be PMs. First of all, it is (or should be) to your benefit to have a lurking PM. Second, you might not be kicking off PMs at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:40 pm
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TheDuelist
Guest


 		Yeah, sadly I was one to taste that boot yesterday, after lurking the forums and trying to get in on this game. Though I fear I'm probably too late to get into it now...

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:21 pm
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tipsila
Unfettered


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 545
Location: In the back of your mind
TheDuelist wrote:
Yeah, sadly I was one to taste that boot yesterday, after lurking the forums and trying to get in on this game. Though I fear I'm probably too late to get into it now...
Duelist, I am so very sorry about last night. We were a bit on edge and expecting more trickery, and after gathering opinions from the rest of the group I banned you. I hope you can accept my apology and please come and join the group if you still desire to do so.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:40 pm
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randomtrickpony
Boot

Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 59
Location: Iceworld of Hoth
tipsila wrote:
TheDuelist wrote:
Yeah, sadly I was one to taste that boot yesterday, after lurking the forums and trying to get in on this game. Though I fear I'm probably too late to get into it now...
Duelist, I am so very sorry about last night. We were a bit on edge and expecting more trickery, and after gathering opinions from the rest of the group I banned you. I hope you can accept my apology and please come and join the group if you still desire to do so.


I second that...come on back. Wink

Mara...I don't completely understand what other incidents you are referencing. This seems to be a single incident to me though, some ARGs have them (especially with the paranoia quotient of this game). Yet you stated that other people have been kickbanned, when I only saw it happen to this one person.

I do definitely agree with you though about how the PM should follow the rules, and we should be kind to each other. Let's just move on now, we've got a Doctor to save!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:44 pm
Last edited by randomtrickpony on Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TheDuelist
Guest


 		It's cool. I understand the reasoning behind the ban, so it's just water under the bridge. Hopefully we can put it behind us and work on the task at hand. Smile

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:51 pm
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GoodChild
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 616
Location: Solitary Confinement

 		Ok, I think a lot more has been made out of this incident than needs to be made of it. We're all a lot on edge from Sarah's sudden departure from reality. Most of us feel ill at ease about how this game is progressing and now that some of us are being verbally abused by PMs there's good call to be paranoid. But pots and kettles shouldn't be name calling.

What happened last night was an honest mistake. For those of us playing, we all know how paranoid things are getting, put yourself in tip's position. Not only was she faced with an unknown and suspicious sounding person on the #av channel, she also had a group of people who, at the time, agreed with her actions. They were as suspicious of TheDuelist as she was. After Tips made a judgment call, then you second-guess her. Tips had admin power but she didn't use it unilaterally. I saw a number of people in the room who agreed with what she did. I don't blame her one bit for wanting to leave.

I think people are definitely owed apologies. The PMs aren't pulling any punches with us. They want us turning on each other. we don't' need to help them by being nasty to each other in the channel. There has been some very rude behavior in the #av channel, and I'm not talking about what happened with TheDuelist. That behavior needs to stop now. Can't we show UF that we don't need babysitters anymore in the #av channel?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:52 pm
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Phaedra
Lurker v2.0


Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously
hyexistenz wrote:
Not only was she faced with an unknown and suspicious sounding person on the #av channel, she also had a group of people who, at the time, agreed with her actions.


I haven't really been following this game lately, but I'd like to second what Addlepated said about how having a lurking PM in the channel is to everyone's advantage. IRC can provide the sort of feedback that doesn't get posted to the forum, on which the discussion tends to be a tiny bit more formal/structured than in IRC, largely I think because it's not quite in real-time.

So it behooves everyone to politely ignore the lurking PM.

That said, from what I quoted above, it sounds like the lurker under suspicion was talking ("suspicious sounding"). Most of the time, I don't think lurking PMs talk to players. I've seen people I later found out to be PMs respond with a "hi" when greeted so as not to look overly suspicious, but much beyond that and they start to cross the "direct PM influence" line, which is disrespecting the channel's OOG status.

So, in general I'd say if they're talking, they're probably not a PM, but if the PMs are doing other stuff that's crossing the line, it may be a good idea for the channel ops to talk to them via PM, so that they're not "outing" them to everyone, but to clear up who exactly they are. And if there are problems, I think you might want to contact either one of the forum admins, or one of the #unfiction channel ops (who are largely the same). They have experience handling this sort of thing and might be able to advise you or even help out directly if the PMs are doing Bad Things In IRC.

(Okay, now I hope the admins aren't going to yell at me for potentially making more work for them.... Embarassed )
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:08 pm
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maradydd
Boot

Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 53
randomtrickpony wrote:
Yet you stated that other people have been kickbanned, when I only saw it happen to this one person.


I know of one other kickbanning, but it happened while I wasn't around; I believe the person's nick was Cipio. I never saw him/her, though.

Also, FWIW, I was one of the people tipsila polled when deciding whether to ban Duelist last night. I was reluctant, but didn't really stand in her way; I'm not going to blame her or "second-guess" her for erring on the side of caution, and I hope that my remarks which started this thread can be viewed in that light. (I was, in fact, already composing this post while the debate over whether to ban was in progress.)

The forum is a less noisy place than chat to discuss these kinds of issues, and I'd rather see them discussed in a place where it's easier for people to be calm and level-headed. I also don't blame anyone for making honest mistakes, and if I have offended anyone or come off as accusing anyone, then I apologise. The PMs have in fact done a great job of getting PCs to turn on each other, and I commend them for their excellent social-engineering, frustrating as it can be to play. Smile

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:14 pm
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C_Brennan
Decorated


Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 236
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

 		Yes, I'm alive. Yes I have been lurking. Yes, I decided to come out from under my rock to make this one post, then I'm scurrying back under like I do. Very Happy

Basically, what I wanted to say is thus: as a former PM, I got alot of information from lurking in chat rooms with players of my games. Not "information I'm going to use against you in a bad OOG way" but, "How are you liking this so far?" type information.

Some of which, after being stated by the players, was quickly implimented by myself or someone else on my team. Basically, we used this channel to appease the players and correct errors in our game format quickly and easily.

Now, if the PMs are doing that, then one shouldn't be paranoid of lurkers. It's kind of the PM's job to be the lurker and to make sure you know what's going on in your own game. If you don't, you actually really can't play the part of the PM correctly. You need to know every single movement, deal, interaction, and event off of the cuff like clockwork. It's alot of work, but this type of "spying" helps out a great deal with it.

Now... if the PMs would be using an OOG channel to devise in-game trickery, then of course that's a bad thing. I'm not against trickery (in fact I enjoy using trickery... heh heh heh...) but only when using an in-game character (or a character people don't know is in-game yet) inside of an in-game area. Therefore, at that point, it's fair game because it's in game. But if this is occuring in OOG channels... whelp... yeah.. that's bad.

But as for kicking and banning... I guess my only advice is be careful. Everyone else said it best: Don't give a newbie a boot as a welcome to the genre.

*crawls back under her rock and lurks*
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:22 pm
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quizzoc
Kilroy

Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1

 		?
?
hey, im new but caught up, is there a key to get into #av

PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:37 pm
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mycroftxxx
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Houston, Texas

 		Nope, just go into the chatrooms (using the chat link off the main Unfiction page) and put in #AV for the channel.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:41 pm
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