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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » GAME: Vanishing Point
[PUZZLE] Loki's Meta Puzzle Emails
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cglrcng
Boot

Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 32
Location: NW AZ
Ehsan wrote:
cglrcng wrote:
Is there such a thing as cheating as long as you aren't truly cracking a website...but merely taking a well tuned shot in the dark? What rules does she live by?...It is afterall her game, her puzzles...her rules. But our challenge.


You have to remember at a meta level that there is no Loki, but PM's who created a fake gaming environment. Thus, any attempts to cheat the characters are in effect cheating the creators of the game.

Using an automated word list to look for folders falls under Brute Force. That has been previously debated extensively (see this thread for example).

At worst your automated code will constitute a DoS attack. At best, you will ruin the game and thrill for discovery for yourself. We play these games not for the prizes, but for the thrill you get when you solve a puzzle.

My personal opinion is that automated brute forcing is wrong when applied to web servers, and in this specific case of Vanishing Point should NOT be used.

I think you are correct in not posting your results, and that you should not further pursue this direction because I know based on past experience and current game elements that it is not the intention of the creators for us to do so.


That said, if you weren't doing it in an automated way, and just typing in every attempt based on random shots in the dark, then it would have been fine to continue that and post your results.


cglrcng wrote:
Will Loki change the rules or the game if we get ahead of her in some way?


The PM's should take care of any unexpected turn of events from player actions in an in-game manner. e.g. if you do find the last answer to the super AMD chip printing prize, they will quickly make it obsolete.


Nooooooooo, you took me totally wrong...."On my machine only", I was using the random word generator...There is no brute force by simply hand entering a url into the address line and pressing enter....I am doing no more than those who are given clues by Loki and entering the url www.vanishingpointgame.com/on_the_run

And as far as I am concerned right now, there certainly is a Loki...She's as red blooded as you or I (Even though it isn't her real name)....She may vanish in the future (in fact that is her mission in my opinion, to get one of us to show her how), but she was hired to do a job, she was present w/ Gates in Vegas, she's in the vids, she gives the clues, and she may just have been the brains behind the design of the actual meta game ...who knows. Either way, her rules...My question is...Are those rules changeable mid game if we do get ahead? (We know they watch the boards as she is registered elsewhere and even left a clue or two posted).

"The PM's should take care of any unexpected turn of events from player actions in an in-game manner. e.g. if you do find the last answer to the super AMD chip printing prize, they will quickly make it obsolete."

Now that's the answer I was looking for.....If true, then they won't really find the smartest, just the luckiest. I wondered, being NEW to the community of ARG's what the thinking of the community is like, you answered it for me...I wondered if all the research and work and using all the tools avail. even if I don't fully understand the use of some of them sometimes are, I have seen the results work. But if the PM is watching and can change the end (or even mid game), rules mid-stream then all must play follow the leader and someone just gets lucky in the end (right time, right place, right bat channel). I'll play anyway...But solve the puzzle using legal means is my personal goal. Too bad there is no rule book to refer to.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:20 am
Last edited by cglrcng on Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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cglrcng
Boot

Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 32
Location: NW AZ
The_Devil_Inside wrote:
reality757 wrote:
Just noticed that the poem on the Wiki was edited almost completely 2 days ago...


I did some more checking. I'm thinking the poem edits may be misleading.
The person who edited them is from:

Location: United States [City: Quincy, Massachusetts]

http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/ptr.ch?ip=72.45.42.139

That location doesn't seem to fit in if it was game related.


I checked that out earlier and saw the Quincy, Mass address too based on the IP Address...But it wouldn't be a stretch to get (ask) the previous editor (I checked and he was), to edit the poem temporarily for a very good purpose. He can always put it back...It is afterall a wiki.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:24 am
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SuperRob
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Seattle, WA
cglrcng wrote:
Now that's the answer I was looking for.....If true, then they won't really find the smartest, just the luckiest. I wondered, being NEW to the community of ARG's what the thinking of the community is like, you answered it for me...I wondered if all the research and work and using all the tools avail. even if I don't fully understand the use of some of them sometimes are, I have seen the results work. But if the PM is watching and can change the end (or even mid game), rules mid-stream then all must play follow the leader and someone just gets lucky in the end (right time, right place, right bat channel). I'll play anyway...But solve the puzzle using legal means is my personal goal. Too bad there is no rule book to refer to.


OK ... so out with it. Give us an example of one of the new directories you found. If they're live, they're fair game, and we can start to work on whether or not they're red herrings.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:22 am
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
cglrcng wrote:
Ehsan wrote:
You have to remember at a meta level that there is no Loki, but PM's who created a fake gaming environment. Thus, any attempts to cheat the characters are in effect cheating the creators of the game.

And as far as I am concerned right now, there certainly is a Loki...She's as red blooded as you or I (Even though it isn't her real name)....She may vanish in the future (in fact that is her mission in my opinion, to get one of us to show her how), but she was hired to do a job, she was present w/ Gates in Vegas, she's in the vids, she gives the clues, and she may just have been the brains behind the design of the actual meta game ...who knows. Either way, her rules...My question is...Are those rules changeable mid game if we do get ahead? (We know they watch the boards as she is registered elsewhere and even left a clue or two posted).

I'm hoping you understand this but still 'playing TINAG' - Loki is a fictional character. The actress is real, but Loki herself is fictional, set up by the creators of VP. Speaking strictly meta(-meta), her trail is really the PMs trail. The profiles registered under her name various places are part of the game, and by definition (- TOS, ARG-etiquette, etc) 'Lokivanishes' could never register here, because unfiction doesn't exist to Loki. If you are able to break Loki's rules and get ahead earlier, it's only 'ok' in arg terms if the PMs offered a way for Loki's rules to be broken. If not, then you've (in this case) brute forced the arg, not Loki's trail.

cglrcng wrote:
Ehsan wrote:
The PM's should take care of any unexpected turn of events from player actions in an in-game manner. e.g. if you do find the last answer to the super AMD chip printing prize, they will quickly make it obsolete.

Now that's the answer I was looking for.....If true, then they won't really find the smartest, just the luckiest. I wondered, being NEW to the community of ARG's what the thinking of the community is like, you answered it for me...I wondered if all the research and work and using all the tools avail. even if I don't fully understand the use of some of them sometimes are, I have seen the results work. But if the PM is watching and can change the end (or even mid game), rules mid-stream then all must play follow the leader and someone just gets lucky in the end (right time, right place, right bat channel). I'll play anyway...But solve the puzzle using legal means is my personal goal. Too bad there is no rule book to refer to.

While there's no ARG rule book (though there is a TOS for unfiction), there are guidelines generally to follow. It's good that you're manually trying attempts at the site, rather than automated brute forcing. But in this case, if the intent is not there for players to 'find' the answer that way (even if one does), then you be certain that the PMs will change the answer if it's found (and retrace their steps to make sure it won't happen again). This doesn't ensure the 'luckiest' win, but it does help them make sure that people people follow the trail they intended. Again, it's not a rule, since the PMs can turn their mistakes into ARGish elements if they so please.

Liken it to running a cross country race on a figure eight loop. While you can change direction at the intersection and cut your race time shorter, it's not what you're intended to do, and if you're discovered, they can put people there to make sure runners take the right path. Otherwise it ruins the race for everyone else. For all intents and purposes, they could even add a leg and cut off the old loop. (of course ARGs aren't a race, generally speaking, so it's not a matter of which players gets to the end first, just how they get there; and cutting corners if they're unfenced is generally considered bad form, and will likely get those corners fenced).

The PMs set up Loki, and the PMs (via Loki) set up a path. If you find something that skips portions of the trail (such as the final answer before the intended clues) without having discovered the trail that everyone else is following, then
1) if that wasn't the PMs intent, they will ensure that won't happen again, and the answer will likely change (and you might upset some other players in the process)
2) if it was the PMs intent (in-game), then it might 'surprise' Loki, but the PMs would have been ready for it, likely expected it, and you'd be free to continue with wherever that leads in-game, because you're still on a trail.

Anyway, the short of it is, if it seems like you came across a solve that feels out of place in the game or for the PMs, chances are it is, and it's best to drop it, or somehow in an ingame fashion, inform the PMs so the 'hole' can be fixed. So yes, if you do find anything, then please do post it, both for the player's sake, and for the PMs.

ETA: sorry for the diversion, let's not derail this thread =)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:40 am
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SuperRob
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Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Seattle, WA
thebruce wrote:

I'm hoping you understand this but still 'playing TINAG' - Loki is a fictional character. The actress is real, but Loki herself is fictional, set up by the creators of VP. Speaking strictly meta(-meta), her trail is really the PMs trail. The profiles registered under her name various places are part of the game, and by definition (- TOS, ARG-etiquette, etc) 'Lokivanishes' could never register here, because unfiction doesn't exist to Loki. If you are able to break Loki's rules and get ahead earlier, it's only 'ok' in arg terms if the PMs offered a way for Loki's rules to be broken. If not, then you've (in this case) brute forced the arg, not Loki's trail.


Bull. Look, 42 has produced several of these, and even someone who hasn't (like myself) would know that if you don't want people getting ahead of the game, you simply DON'T PUBLISH THE MATERIAL. If the directories that are found are live on the VPG website, they're fair game. If they didn't want people to find them yet, they simply wouldn't have uploaded them to the site.

Stuff they have to pre-seed to public websites is tougher ... but they have full and complete control over their own website. There's no way to brute force your way in and get information they didn't put on a live, in-game server. They're too smart for that.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:00 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
SuperRob wrote:
Bull. Look, 42 has produced several of these, and even someone who hasn't (like myself) would know that if you don't want people getting ahead of the game, you simply DON'T PUBLISH THE MATERIAL. If the directories that are found are live on the VPG website, they're fair game. If they didn't want people to find them yet, they simply wouldn't have uploaded them to the site.

Stuff they have to pre-seed to public websites is tougher ... but they have full and complete control over their own website. There's no way to brute force your way in and get information they didn't put on a live, in-game server. They're too smart for that.

Mistakes happen. They happen a lot. That's why I said, if it's a mistake, they need to know about it so it can be fixed. It's not our judgement call really to say whether something is a mistake or not, which is why we strongly encourage people to share all information they get so the PMs (assuming they're monitoring various forums) can make that judgement call for themselves, and keep the game fun and enjoyable for everyone.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:07 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		Re: Is it Live or is it Memorex
...this is a game about finding someone online, not in real world
cglrcng wrote:
Just heard from a friend who was keeping an eye out in LV for me tonight (a frequent flyer on vacation w/ lots of miles to burn, he isn't playing the game, but I am)...There was someone matching Loki's description that boarded Southwest Airlines Flight 608 that departed the gate at 7:19 PM and arrived in LA, CA at 8:05 PM. No approach made, but Loki now has a tail...It is afterall of her own making and he's a safe type.


There are a ton of people at CES who could match the physical description of the ACTRESS who plays Loki in the videos.

From my discussion with members of 42 at the fountains on Monday night. They thought about a live appearance by the ACTRESS at CES and the other live events but decided it was better to stick to the videos. She's a good ACTRESS but this is not the time to have to deal with improv.

Please tell your friend to fly home. There is no Loki. There is the PM team from 42Entertainment. The character of Loki is being played by an ACTRESS.

/META
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:33 pm
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enaxor
I Have No Life

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 2395

 		Loki's AMD recorded message
I don't think a recording of Loki's message from the AMD phone number has been posted yet, so here's a couple of links provided by Vistaxp from chat.

http://www.divshare.com/download/40943-012

http://www.mediafire.com/?3owotejmzoy

Thanks Vistaxp.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:15 pm
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Maximus5684
Guest


 		Something New on Loki
As per a post on Neowin, check out http://lokivanishes.com/ and help decipher the meaning:

Loki is right in front of you - split your monitor and find her there.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:30 pm
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SuperRob
Boot

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Seattle, WA

 		Re: Something New on Loki
Maximus5684 wrote:
As per a post on Neowin, check out http://lokivanishes.com/ and help decipher the meaning:

Loki is right in front of you - split your monitor and find her there.


That site is Out Of Game.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:36 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
Quote:
We play these games not for the prizes, but for the thrill you get when you solve a puzzle.

Hey now, a prize would be really SWEET!

Also, y'can't really claim with a straight face that brute force will never be required for this particular game.

All we know is that as of right this minute, the members of this community do not appear to know of an actual, pressing need to use a dictionary attack on the site. So, it's probably best not to.

Also:
Quote:
That's why I said, if it's a mistake, they need to know about it so it can be fixed.

What if we don't know it's a mistake? I am here to play the game. It is not my job to fact-check the experience for errors. It's a shaky assumption at best that the players will know what was supposed to happen. Lateral thinking tends to go right out the window.

We have already seen some cool and interesting stuff come out of thinking outside of the boundaries that exist because they're familiar. Calling up Microsoft to ask for an in-game character's extension is certainly something that hasn't fallen under "familiar" with this particular community, for example.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:17 pm
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

 		Dibs on the pocketwatch!

Seriously... The hunt; The scent of information; The thrill of the chase...
As Grumpyboy once said, "There's just something satisfying about keying in the guesses and being rewarded with a new page for your effort." (paraphrased).

There are times when the puzzle developers expect automated attempts at page discovery and build the infrastructure needed to handle it (Remember the HEX168 X-Box return label puzzle with several thousand links on the image with only one being good.), but I really don't get the feeling that this is one of those times.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:56 pm
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aliendial
Unfictologist


Joined: 29 Sep 2002
Posts: 3438
Location: Far Far Away. Nowhere Near You. Really.

 		I think we need more puzzles to distract us from discussing the rulz. How about them plane flights?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:46 pm
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guardian
Greenhorn

Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 4

 		curious
Question:

(and before the question, saying google is better is a bad answer)

Why is everyone using google maps for this?

Isn't this a Vista promotion? Should the MS map system be used exclusively incase the map images have been altered to add a clue?

http://maps.live.com/

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:46 pm
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aliendial
Unfictologist


Joined: 29 Sep 2002
Posts: 3438
Location: Far Far Away. Nowhere Near You. Really.

 		In all honesty it's because we really like Google maps, but you have a point.

As a good but suspicious puzzler I'd suggest using both because the MS product could have something for us and you can watch for differences. And as with every competing product they all have different bells and whistles that might be useful. And it's good to be thorough.

edit - and I went to see if there was something "special" in the map at the AMD building we called yesterday. Nuthin. Now to check Las Vegas.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:50 pm
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