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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Deus City » DC: Deus City
[White District] Composure
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SteveMids
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 		My Theory
Hi All,


Please bear in mind hear that I haven't got the musical knowledge that some of you out there have and as such am presenting my thoughts, such as they are....and I have a few theories that kinda come together in a way!


1. I think that the broken sound that is created by pumping the notes into a composer is a result of the fact that this is one page of a Symphony, and therefore specific perhaps to one instrument from that Symphony, and so played alone makes little difference to those not already familiar with it.

2. It is my personal belief that this piece of music does in fact get played on either the piano or organ, and only in fact contains the additional part of the score to be played by the third and fourth hand. (I believe this is called "Scoring for four hands", and is actually played by a second pianist).

3. It is also my belief that the Composer's name is encoded in the music and have a couple of questions to ask those of you more musically minded.......... a) It has been mentioned that accents are in the wrong place or are facing the wrong way - Are these perhaps near to or next to a note that is a vowel? (ie. A or E)? b) Is there a common practise in place to ignore mis-timed movements whilst playing? c) Is this mis-timed movement roughly in the middle of the piece, or is it in the middle of an equal number of notations or likewise?

4. Noticed "Presto" (very quickly), and "Dolce" (Sweetly) noted on the music too, which may blow one of my above theories out of the water as read on another website that this may infer a duet? Perhaps, a budding musician could clarify??

5. Lastly, and this isn't a theory, more like a blatant appeal for help ...... There seems to be an awful lot of letters written above or below the music itself, (ie. p, f pp, pf, mt), can anyone tell us if these are "out of place", the same with the "<" ">" signs of varying size/length, not always in pairs either........ relevant????

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:52 pm
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Pied Piper
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Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 362

 		Excellent questions SteveMids
All of these are great questions. Helps to have another mind on the job.

1. While it is true that this is probably the music that is played by one instrument, the beginning of the page gives enough of a sound to make it evident that the instrument is playing the melody line for at least the first third of what is there. The sick thing is I recognize it from somewhere--I think. Trouble is that so many pieces sound similar to each other, that sometimes you fill in the blanks in your head when you've listened to a lot.

Also, your point about this being one instrument was what made me make a comment about how we can't assume that this is in a minor. (Note for the non-musical: minor keys get lower case, e.g., a minor, major keys get upper case, e.g., C major. That's why I've been typing them that way. Just an aside--there will NOT be a quiz later.) I won't repeat that info here.

2. I am not positive, not being very familiar with four hand scoring, but I think that usually when scoring for two pianists, there is usually more than just a single line of notes--in other words, there'd be harmony--particularly for something as complicated as a symphony. But as I said, I haven't actually seen that type of music, so you may know better than I.

3. That's a good idea about the composer's name being in the music.

a) The accented notes are D E A E (the second E being an octave below the first one).

b) There is not a common practice to ignore movements that are mistimed. What happens if there is an obvious error in the music is that the conductor tells everyone what the corrections are, and you fix them on your own part. I have a Mozart flute solo with a note that is one staff line above what it should be, and that gets changed. It's very obvious when a note is just wrong when you play it, so it is easy to do. Conductors have a standard list of what inaccuracies there are in various pieces, although that list changes as people do research with original scores and scores from various printings in the past to try to remain current, since some of the differences simply change how a chord sounds. A lot of debate about some of these things, but really wrong notes are very obvious.

c) I'm not sure about whether this is in the middle of the piece or not. I think it is, because it sounds like there would have been a lot of setup before it. Unless they've unintentionally made an error, it is not the end of the piece, but may be the end of the movement. The fact that there are still staff lines available at the end of the page make me think that this is probably the end of the movement--sometimes you do end a movement on a "cliffhanger" kind of note as is done here, since the ending "G" is not part of the tonic chord. (The tonic of the chord is the chord of the key the piece is in; here, that would be a minor, so the chord would be A-C-E, while the ending note is "G.")

4. Great work! Could you reveal your source about this, as I'd like to read it and do some further research so that I can see about some other theories which have been too amorphous yet to share with everyone? I do have to say, though, that if it is a duet, it is more than likely a symphony with two solo instruments. I'm saying this purely by instinct, because what you have here doesn't sound like a standard duet--it really does sound like something that is more complicated than that.

5. The markings below that you mention are called dynamics which are sound markings, telling you how loudly to play the music. P stands for "piano" which would mean softly, f stands for "forte" which means play loudly, pp is pianissimo, mf (not mt, if you look carefully) means mezzo forte meaning medium loud. I think the "pf" is actually "ff" which would mean fortissimo, meaning very loud. A "pf" marking would be very unusual but not entirely unheard of; apparently Mozart used this marking instead of mf in some of his music, even though he knew that it was usually mf with everyone else.

The varying length of the <and> are dynamic indications, too. The left bracket means a crescendo, where you are getting progressively louder, the right bracket is a decrescendo, which means you are getting progressively quieter. It's not unusual either for you do get quieter and then suddenly start playing loudly in the next measure, either, and the reverse is also normal. The length of the markings are just indicating how long you are getting quieter or louder.

Let me know if I missed answering anything.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:59 pm
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Pied Piper
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Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 362

 		A new insight
There was something nagging me in the back of my head, and I've finally pulled it into the open. I'd been thinking that this sounded like something of Mussorgsky, but haven't been able to track that down, and then I realized that the reason I thought this is that this sounds like music written by a Russian composer. So I've got a new list, and will be trying to run through that. Fortunately, wikipedia actually had a list of Russian composer, hooray!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:02 pm
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SteveMids
Boot

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Birmingham, UK.

 		Bacon's Cipher
I've been trying for ages to get something out of the transcript of notes that was given towards the start of this thread using Bacon's Cipher that is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_cipher

I'll be honest and admit that I haven't actually got anything of use out of it as yet, but maybe others will.

If, as I suspect, this is the method used to encrypt the password, I think what may be screwing it up is one of the following :

1) The scibbled out notes adjusts the code, or
2) The code is wrong, either because only certain notes (crotchets, quavers, or my favourite one hemi-demi-semi-quaver's), are used to make the coded message, or perhaps the dynamics indicate the applicable bits, or
3) I'm totally wrong about everything that I've said and it has something to do with the music!!!

Sorry, it's not actually HARD help, but maybe throwing the idea out there will help in some way?


SM

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:26 pm
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Wang Guantao
Decorated


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 246

 		I seriously doubt it has anything to do with the music.

But I'm stumped as well... tried asigning the hexa value from the name of each note and scerwing around with the numbers, but that didn't give much either =/

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:36 am
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Trent
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 		I agree with Wang on this one. I really don't think this has to do with the musical tune at all. There are too many errors that don't make sense from a musician's standpoint (even for a one page from one instrument point of view). I'm going to start playing around with the notes themselves and see if anything comes of it.

In the meantime, I want to post a few corrections to the original transcription of the note letters. (Great work by the way, but I found a couple mistakes.)

AAE (rest)| DABEEA | A (rest) EDDA | EE (rest_rest)
*FA(rest)AD | AGGABG | EAFAA | DAGGA(rest)
BDBADA | AED(rest)BA | DD(rest)AA | ED(rest)BAE
E(rest)FAAD | AG(rest)GAFE | AAD(rest)F | A(rest)AD**
AGGAFB(rest) | (2 measures rest) | D**FBDA(rest) | B(rest)AGDE
DEA(rest)E | DD(rest) | AAEDE | EB(rest)B | FFEDF(rest)
AAGF(rest)AEF | A(rest)AGE | E(rest)B(rest) | AE(rest)DEAGDB
E(rest)ED(rest) | AEFAE | FABDD | CAEEG*F
A(rest)DEB | (rest)AEDAD | B(rest)EGB******
AGG(rest)DEE | G(rest)

* (scratched out) G
** (scratched out) AG(A?)
** (scratched out) AB
* (scratched out) measure line
****** (scratched out) AGGGG(rest)

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:54 am
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Trent
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

 		Another odd musical point is that the key signature without any flats or sharps would typically be C major -and note that there is only C note in the entire page. That's unusual considering that's the key it is written in.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:12 am
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SteveMids
Boot

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Birmingham, UK.
Trent wrote:
AAE (rest)| DABEEA | A (rest) EDDA | EE (rest_rest)
*FA(rest)AD | AGGABG | EAFAA | DAGGA(rest)
BDBADA | AED(rest)BA | DD(rest)AA | ED(rest)BAE
E(rest)FAAD | AG(rest)GAFE | AAD(rest)F | A(rest)AD**
AGGAFB(rest) | (2 measures rest) | D**FBDA(rest) | B(rest)AGDE
DEA(rest)E | DD(rest) | AAEDE | EB(rest)B | FFEDF(rest)
AAGF(rest)AEF | A(rest)AGE | E(rest)B(rest) | AE(rest)DEAGDB
E(rest)ED(rest) | AEFAE | FABDD | CAEEG*F
A(rest)DEB | (rest)AEDAD | B(rest)EGB******
AGG(rest)DEE | G(rest)

* (scratched out) G
** (scratched out) AG(A?)
** (scratched out) AB
* (scratched out) measure line
****** (scratched out) AGGGG(rest)



Is this definitely the right transcript? Sorry for asking but did loads of work on the first listing, and got half leads that cleared out my account!


SM

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:07 pm
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Unfeltkisss
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Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 70

 		if you've got some ideas, I have red account with around 500 creds i can test with. just let me know

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:36 pm
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Trent
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

 		Yes, that was my corrected version of the letters. I didn't include the rhythms though, so that might come into play as well. I noticed that the composer only uses 9 different notes on the treble clef (from D above middle C up to E at the top of the staff) and only 4 different note/rest lengths (sixteenth, eighth, quarter, and half) in the whole piece. It may be nothing but I found it interesting to take note of in case it matters later.

In my hunt I have found numerous musical ciphers used by Bach, Shostakovich, and Schumann just to name a few historical composers. But so far nothing that really spells out anything that makes sense using the notes on this page of 'music'. I'm going cross-eyed looking at these notes for now, but I'll come back to it later in the week to try some more.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:56 pm
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SteveMids
Boot

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Birmingham, UK.
Trent wrote:
In my hunt I have found numerous musical ciphers used by Bach, Shostakovich, and Schumann just to name a few historical composers. But so far nothing that really spells out anything that makes sense using the notes on this page of 'music'. I'm going cross-eyed looking at these notes for now, but I'll come back to it later in the week to try some more.


The ciphers that most have my attention at the moment, are Bacon's cipher, (link already provided), Elgar's Dorabella Cipher, (although this hasn't actually been solved in real life according to my research), and one which you also mention, Schumann.

It's entirely possible that we are over complicating this though, it could be as simple as morse code.

I'm gonna repeat my previous work on this new transcript using Bacon's cipher, see if that produces anything legible as the first correction that you have made is very near the start and would indeed alter everything that I decoded after the 2nd letter.


SM

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:47 am
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SteveMids
Boot

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Birmingham, UK.

 		Bacon's Cipher + New Transcript
Ok - Working new transcript with Bacon's has produced the following

AAABA C
AA1AAA A
ABAAA I/J
AABBA G
AABAA E
ABAAA I/J
AAAAA A
A2AAB3B D
ABAAA I/J
ABBAA N
AAABA C
ABAAA I/J
BA4ABA T
ABB5A

If the scratched out notes are ignored, but when I adjusted it in line with the "scratched out" instructions, it becomes:

AAABA C
AAAAA A
ABAAA I/J
AABBA G
AABAA E
ABAAA I/J
AAAAA A
ABABA L
AAABB D
AAAAA A
BAABA T
AABAA E
BAABB U/V


From the first, there seems to be a pattern where I or J is every 3rd letter, which may or may not be relevent, perhaps a check that the code is still intact or no error has been made thus far.

From the second, the things that jumped out at me are the words "CAGE" and "ALDATE".

Google results on these terms produces info in respect of a church/street/shops in respect of a small area in the centre of Oxford, UK. Trudging through it at the moment, but have found a reference to "John Cage" who was a contemporary composer. He recorded a lot of, ermmm .......... not technically minded in respect of music ........... but as I'm going to post a link to which you can listen for yourself and form your own opinion ........... I'm going to call it CRAP!!!!!

Here's the link : http://www.altnet.com/store/album/43007/Avantgarde/Variations_IV/John_Cage/index.aspx

I think we MAY have a breakthru, but got no money left to try anything with Sad

Sooooo ...... If the above is correct, then what would be the answer they are looking for?? It could be the hidden code, it could be the composer.

Task asks for the password, but the music sheet has the all too obvious "Composer?" written on it. Guess we need to try "John Cage", "CAGE ALDATE", possibly something different altogether, hopefully this'll get your cogs whirring!!!


SM

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:55 pm
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Wabonan
Entrenched


Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 1185

 		Its not john cage..... don't have enough money to try the other

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:35 pm
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Unfeltkisss
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Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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 		CAGE ALDATE also does not work.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:37 pm
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SteveMids
Boot

Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Birmingham, UK.

 		"John Cage" + "Cage Aldate"
Sorry that the suggestions I have made upto this point have not worked, but I remain convinced we have the at least the starting blocks.

Technically, what is encoded is (if it is by means of Bacon's Cipher):

CA(IorJ)GE(IorJ)ALDATE(UorV)

I assumed that the double letter code was either a space or some other punctuation, perhaps a number to make the code/password harder to guess?

What do you think? - I can find no mention of numbers using Bacon's, so are there spaces in the password?

Do you all think I am barking up the wrong tree?

Can any of those (that aren't tone deaf), hear the music as printed in any of John Cage's pieces?? (Link above).

Perhaps, it's the name of the album (Variations IV)??? Share your thoughts, perhaps you will trigger a thought with someone else.

I'll have enough credits to guess tomorrow, so want to make it a good one!!


SM

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:16 pm
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