unforum

[Phaedra]

[notgordian]

Thanks, Phaedra--seeing the elements the PMs set forward laid out like that has cleared up a few things for me. I was around here for the initial IG/OOG discussion (I joined Deus City just as it was beginning) and attributed the frenzy to overenthusiastic players. Operating under that assumption, I saw the convergence of puzzle solving goals as the PMs trying to bring players back together in an OOG sense as well as IG, and therefore viewed the recent (re)split as them giving up.

However, I can see from the elements the PMs implemented (and announced implementing) from the beginning that if this wasn't their intent, it probably should have been. Thanks for your patience in explaining that to me.

[Phaedra]

I should stipulate that I'm only theorizing about their design goals by assuming that they haven't radically changed their structure in response to players behaving unexpectedly. But it seems more logical to assume that they haven't radically changed up anything unless there's evidence to the contrary.

[Trace]

Well we indeed are altering things ot suit us better, i mean take a look at Violet Night Shade, he has caused a "truth" to be focused all about him

[Wang Guantao]

zOMG Phaedra said "But it seems more logical"!!one

I bet she's Foo in disguise.... Watch the comms. :p

[taureanfreak]

pics and fundi

[morelaak]

taurean,

there isn't. I've tried to desteg them with any possible password that could have been dropped in conversation over the past few weeks, both between users/slewth/foo/theo/bishop etc... and from possible clues in the problems.

If they made it harder than that, then they are cruel SOBs.

(jk, jk...)

Morelaak

EDIT: probably gonna dead end, but i didn't try to desteg the "peace" image with the keyword "SuN", the acronym given for the Supreme Neutrality Act.

could someone try to desteg for me? I'm not near a PC right now....

[taureanfreak]

LOL maybe it's Newton!!!!!!! and check out the Fundi's game section of the website.... they've changed it now. I was looking at the forums at DC and there were alot!!!! of OOG references, like calling the tasks puzzles. If I was a PM i'd be pissed too. Makes it seems like it's not serious. Hell even if i talk about non DC stuff in the messages, i'm still playing the game (this vacation for example, as the agent taureafreak i am on a vacation and still trying to continue linking up to the interface)

[VioletNightshade]

WHOOF the heat!!

I must say first off that I am having immense fun with this game; and that didn't start with the whole Prophet bit, or even crazy manifestos. I'm also having a lot of fun on these forums - which are certainly a very necessary aid to the gameplay. I've also been finding the (general) lack of rants, flames, and personal attacks to be very refreshing. Even the implied respect and politesse of the term, Trout, is quite a difference from the language of other topic forums I (used to) frequent. Please, take all I have to say in that spirit.

That being said, I have heard a lot of talk on this site as to what does or does not constitute a 'real ARG' and I find it confusing. Why try to limit the scope of a developing genre, instead of encouraging it to grow? I'm not saying that 'anything that says its an ARG, is', rather that quibbling on definitions never helped an artistic movement (and yes, I do consider gaming and game-making to be a form of art.) One of the greatest strengths of the game - be it a board game, a video game, a role-playing game, or an alternate reality game - is its its immense potential to explore new models of interaction and problem solving. Is ARG not supposed to involve any sort or role-playing or any RPG related aspects whatsoever? What is one doing when interacting with characters or IG with other players, if not role-playing? Is 'classifying' Deus City as 'an RPG instead of an ARG' in some way meant to illegitimize it? Why not embrace it as an experiment which, though it may fail, can teach us more about what ARG is or is not through *experience*?

Similarly, solving obscure knowledge puzzles is not my forte; role-playing, rabble-rousing, and intrigue are much more my style of gaming. If a real ARG means sitting around reading other people's solves and bugging cardboard internet robots for information, I'm probably not into it. Deus City has puzzle solving; It also has role-playing and some neat character widgets to play around with. Puzzle solving and role-playing *both* seem to drive the plot, which apparently is unprecedented and unsettling. But I don't see that as reason enough to exclude those like myself who want to stretch the role playing aspect. It is said time and again that ARG is about 'community'. Does this community not include me? That seems the surest route to splintering and factionalization within the ARG community.

Admittedly, there are some bumps on the road. IG/OOG issues are complex but I feel I have them in hand myself; maybe it's because I've done a bit of role-playing. Some others don't seem to have done so well, especially those who HOARD SOLVES and watch the rest of us twitch (and don't, apparently, have as much digital self control as I do - which is saying quite a bit). And of course the PMs have made mistakes too. Like posting personal information for one of the PMs on an IG website, then having the website be OOG, only to have this guy and his web site suddenly be IG again, but also be OOG in the OOG Terms of Service on the IG website and really not acknowledging it particularly. And I'm terribly sorry that Piper felt she had to leave; whatever happened, I sincerely hope you will come back Piper as you are way better at puzzles than me!

Again, this is something completely new; a learning experience for me and, I'm sure, everyone. I'm not trying to apologize for the PMs. I'm just basically unsure as to what happened. I was having a great time and then this, well, *brawl* breaks out in a 'Meta Off Topic' threat I had thought I could safely ignore. Why is everyone suddenly fanatically for or against the game? I thought we weren't supposed to have any factions *here*.

[morelaak]

...

...hold up for a minute...

[brain compiling]
101100101101001011001010001010101111010110010101...
11011010101...
11011010101...
10...
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.
[crash]



...so pretty much, you just said, "what happened to cause piper to leave?"

EDIT: yes, it's a programming joke. flame me if you must.

[Wang Guantao]

I'm enjoying the game so far.

I'm unde rsome pressure, so I don't feel i have the surpluss energy to do much interacting at the moment (I have the time to write an E-mail, but I can't seem to gather myself and compose something decent) so I'm following a bit on the side.

Also your points on ARG/RPG VN is something that I have been thinking about, and while we're not completely agreeing on everything, I say thank you for writing down my thoughts (imba prophet i tells ya).

[taureanfreak]

I still think the problem involved people using the term "puzzle" and treating the DC forums as if they were OOG. I love this game.... hell i'm on vacation in sunny Phoenix and still playing!!!

[KGBrAm]

MannyReasons,


I tip my hat to you sir.

I agree on every point and even tried to make them VERY early in DC's Life. I gave up, I left the game and I left the community here.

I just surfed my way back to ARGN out of boredom today and say that we STILL had controversy around DC.

I was extremely hyped up when DC started, but the general attitude of certain 'Old Timers' to use (Dave Szulborski term) have managed to successfully turn me off DC, this community and ARG's in general. (Heck, I was even invited aboard the DC team of PM's, but left for the reasons listed above)

The main problem I have with the Old Timer attitude, is that it pervades pretty much all of the information available on the Web for these types of games. (Honestly, besides unfiction and ARGN, we don't have any great options to get to know how arg's work or what they are. So this negative attitude is imprinted in alot of people at an early stage.


I design games for a living (more than I can say for someof people who write on these boards with 'authority' on the subject) and seeing a genre so exciting and vast be pigeonholed so rapidly in it's life cycle is absurd.

We also see alot of quotes taken from academics and ludologists. People take them as fact, when actually it is mere opinion. Ludologists and academics have a hard time defining what a game is, why should we take it as canon?

This is comparable to psychology, psychiatry, philosophy, sociology etc etc...where many different experts have different answers to questions. Most people will attach themselves to the ideology that suits their agenda or beleifs.

Jane McGonigal is brilliant, I can admit, but her words are not canon. To bring this in line with psychology, Freud and Skinner were both brilliant. They both had diverging methods and beliefs, was one right and the other wrong? No, they had different views, both helped people get better.

Remember that the End goal of a game overshadows the means. Whatever the way, make the players have fun.


Unfiction/ARGN needs to loosen up. Or at least CLEARLY state that what members and moderators post is opinion, not fact. This community is set up to be the one stop shop for all ARG questions and concerns, it should be objective. (a small line in the TOS is not enough, if it's even there)

Old timers are not objective.


Make games and play games to know what games are. No amount of academic ego stroking will be able to explain them. Learn by doing not reading others peoples works.

Let people help this genre to grow and mature by not crushing them with your own negative opinions. This is a very snobish and select club sometimes. That is bad for the players and PM's.


Phaedra, yes, I am mostly talking about you. At least Imbri seem genuinly concerned with our opinions. She has her own ideals but does not force them down our throats like you do. She listens and tries to see other sides of the coin.



For those who do not know, Old timers as defined by Dave Szulborski:
PLayers who want every ARG made to be 'The Beast' over and over again.

That is called Fanboi-ism, and is bad for anything it affects.

When a new game does not fit into the Old Timer mindset, you usually give it bad rep, tell people to stay clear of it, tell people it does not seem professional etc etc etc....keep doing that and you'll have nothing new coming out of amateur and pro PM's. For a community that claims to support ARG's...that is absurd.

This has been on my chest for a loooooooooong time now, I apologize if the text seems badly written, english is not my original language. I'm french Canadian.


Now I can finally leave this community for ever, and feel good about having said my part.



EDIT: Typos.

[Phaedra]

[KGBrAm]

oh, it's not wrecked, don't pat yourself on the back too much.

If anything, you've just strengthened my views. Sorry to burst your self-important bubble there girl.


I can easily substitute The beast for ILB in your case, or even 42E. Don't take something literally, when it implies alot more figuratively. I'm sure you've also read that book and understood David's meaning. You are way smarter than that.