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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Ephemeral » ARG: Eldritch Errors
[meta] Game Mechanics
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jjason
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Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 113
Location: St. Paul



danteIL wrote:
warning a bit of a rant here
Yea, this is starting to annoy me. I don't like the guilt trip that the PMs are pulling here -- Yes, we get it; you think we are being too timid or reluctant or whatever. Speaking for myself, I simply don't feel like calling a phone number and leaving fake dreams. One discovers playing these games what forms of interaction you like and what forms you don't like, and so I guess I've learned something here. On a more meta level, I have a problem with the fact that there doesn't seem to be a goal (yet?) other than to blindly follow whatever twisted path BA is concocting. No motivation for *why* we should help her has been forthcoming (yet?). As cliche as it is in ARGs, sometimes a good ol' "save the cheerleader, save the world" plot is *really* effective. Maybe it's coming -- if so, I hope it's soon.


Something interesting I've noticed - so far BA has really been pushing us to go farther, be less timid, give her our dreams, trust her. While on the other hand all of the computer people have consistantly been giving the opposite message - don't trust strangers, look out for malicious folks, protect yourself and trust no one.

PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:26 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Hi, jjason, don't panic, you did hit REPLY, but I've split it into a new topic. brb...

I thought this looked a bit off topic for the Craigslist ads, but dante's original post was mixed in with a new ad link, so I couldn't easily split it off. I've been meaning to revisit the issue, and you've given me an opportunity.

Mixed messages? Or just too many messages? It's hard to pick just one character to follow their lead.

As for the phone-in bit, I was prepared to call with a real dream, but now it seems those aren't wanted. We're getting positive feedback when we give fake dreams, and I just don't enjoy lying to the characters that way. I was willing to reach out to B.A. and bare my soul, but that's not the direction the game has taken.

I hate comparing this game to WiBS, because each game needs to stand on its own merits, and no game should be a retread of old material. But WiBS is useful as a point of reference: we had Tucker as a single focal character, who revealed things about himself, his mother, his girlfriend, his job, etc., which made him vunerable and in need of our help. In contrast, the Sentries tell us little about themselves personally, and they all seem so compentant on their own that I don't feel like they need or even want much from me. B.A.St.Feline might actually need us, but we know even less about her.

The one thing about the game so far that works for me are the Craigslist ads, if only because they are consistent, we know how they work, we can count on them appearing on schedule. It's comforting to have something tangible to do, something that the characters don't seem to be doing already on their own.

I look forward to having more things to do in the game. I'm just not sure how invested I am in it so far. Honestly, the "screaming" from the telnet port was the creepiest thing yet, and the most immersive for me, maybe because it happened directly *to* me, right here on my own computer screen in real time. More of that, please!

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:24 am
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James Stone
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
Location: England

The Craigslist postings make absolutely no sense to me and I am so glad I am with a group of very clever people who can think these things through. As for the hacking aspect, I am a bit more experienced, but I still have a reservation. How far are the PM's wanting us to take this? I have dropped a few hints at brute forcing the servers in order to get a rise out of the PM's and some sort of direction, but none has been forthcoming. I would like to know where the boundaries are before Interpol are on the phone Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 5:56 am
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Occultus
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Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 37

It's a bit of a grey area.

You need permission from the server owner to be completely covered. So that's Dreamhost (who'd need to contact the SentryOutpost admin to check they were ok with it too). Even if one of the sentries says it's ok to do it, Dreamhost could still legitimately complain about any hacking attempt on one of their servers.

Given the current habit of the US dragging UK citizens over the pond with threats of insanely long prison sentences for anything they can possibly pin a 'terrorism' tag on (which definitely includes any unauthorised computer access) ... I'm personally going to tread very carefully Confused

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:24 am
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johnny5
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 995
Location: Elysian Fields

catherwood wrote:
As for the phone-in bit, I was prepared to call with a real dream, but now it seems those aren't wanted. We're getting positive feedback when we give fake dreams, and I just don't enjoy lying to the characters that way. I was willing to reach out to B.A. and bare my soul, but that's not the direction the game has taken.


I wouldn't say real dreams aren't wanted, just not necessarily required. Rose called in her real dream and it made the CL (flaming birds). If you look at the posts from HPHack, he suggest that we have to actually have the dream for the experiment to be valid.

I think the PMs "got the message" with the latest HPHack post about replying to a CL with your dream. Link

To the main point (I think): I agree, we aren't getting enough direction or perhaps aren't being given enough options. I too enjoy GMD games and I'd hate to see them get a reputation for player abuse (Virgil, Quipi, etc..) but it may be too late.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:28 am
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James Stone
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 174
Location: England

johnny5 wrote:

I too enjoy GMD games and I'd hate to see them get a reputation for player abuse (Virgil, Quipi, etc..) but it may be too late.


What player abuse? I assume this is something to do with WiBS, I missed that one unfortunately. I don't see any evidence of player abuse so far, just not a great deal of player direction and boundary setting. But I guess ARG's are always looking to push those boundaries. Fwiw I have contacted DreamHost and asked them what agreements are in place regarding server hacking, still awaiting a reply.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 9:06 am
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enaxor
I Have No Life

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 2395

James Stone wrote:
johnny5 wrote:

I too enjoy GMD games and I'd hate to see them get a reputation for player abuse (Virgil, Quipi, etc..) but it may be too late.


What player abuse? I assume this is something to do with WiBS, I missed that one unfortunately. I don't see any evidence of player abuse so far, just not a great deal of player direction and boundary setting. But I guess ARG's are always looking to push those boundaries. Fwiw I have contacted DreamHost and asked them what agreements are in place regarding server hacking, still awaiting a reply.


Maybe player abuse is a bit strong, how about taking advantage? When you have the reputation for bringing a great gaming experience, like GMD does, it's easy to see where things could be viewed as taking certain liberties with your player base. Players with past experience of their games, will tend to give them more leeway and show a little more patience as the game progresses, but there is a point at which the most avid fan will leave. The lack of direction is definitely hurting this experience. When a player has to contact a web-hosting company to ask about server hacking, IMO it's destroyed the "tinag" concept.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:08 am
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

johnny5 wrote:
I wouldn't say real dreams aren't wanted, just not necessarily required. Rose called in her real dream and it made the CL (flaming birds). If you look at the posts from HPHack, he suggest that we have to actually have the dream for the experiment to be valid.

I think the PMs "got the message" with the latest HPHack post about replying to a CL with your dream. Link


I think we've clearly established that if we call in dreams, that elements of them will show up in the CLs in one form or another. Big whoop-de-do. Obviously (or maybe not so obviously) something more is expected, because so far all we've gotten is vague fuzzies. Are we really supposed to coordinate our dreams in some kind of 'attack'**? After all, we've been scolded for being timid. If so, then they clearly can't expect real dreams.

I'll say it again: I really wish we knew WHY in the world we should be helping BA at all.


**EDIT: Thought I would edit to include HPHack's suggestion for how to go about this:
Quote:
1. Pick question for BA in forums (signal in channel one)
2. Get as many people to dream about it (signal in channel two)
3. Get as many people to call in those dreams as possible (signal in channel three)
4. Look for change in the output


PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:11 am
Last edited by danteIL on Mon May 14, 2007 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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cissmiace
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Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 867
Location: Manchester UK

danteIL wrote:

I'll say it again: I really wish we knew WHY in the world we should be helping BA at all.


Has anyone actually directly asked that? I think I might reply to my craigslist. I have to wonder, if this game has actually even started yet. WWO went on for about 2 months before the site went live, so I'm just wondering.

I havent played a GMD game before, so I'm excited from reading past games they have done, but it does seem like either their planning something mind-blowingly huge and thats why we're not getting anything, or the simpler option...we're just not getting anything, in which case, that sucks.

I agree, its up to the PM's to direct the game in another direction if we're not getting what they want us to get.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:20 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
Location: Here, obviously

cissmiace wrote:
danteIL wrote:

I'll say it again: I really wish we knew WHY in the world we should be helping BA at all.


Has anyone actually directly asked that? I think I might reply to my craigslist.


The problem with that is that as far as I can tell, the game mechanics don't allow it.

So far, other than the packages, our communication with BA is highly filtered: we can't email her via her site, and we can only leave messages via her phone. (I'm not remembering -- did anyone who responded to CL ads get an email back?) I've left a message asking her questions -- as I'm sure other people did -- and gotten no response. The only way she responds to us is by incorporating the dreams we describe on her answering machine into her CL posts.

Our ability to communicate with her is at best attenuated.

This isn't unusual -- in fact it's a fairly common design decision: a character's knowledge of the mystery the players are trying to solve and player access to that character are often inversely proportional. So, I'm not saying that this is a problem, just that I don't think B.A. is going to answer direct questions.

That said, it may be possible to the use dream descriptions you feed her to get more information about B.A. herself. After all, she herself appears to be present in the dreams, so it would seem she falls under the fair-game heading of "dream material." Wink

cissmiace wrote:
I have to wonder, if this game has actually even started yet. WWO went on for about 2 months before the site went live, so I'm just wondering.


Well, the meta site does call this a "pilot chapter," so it's possible it's a pre-game of sorts. Dunno
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:40 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Posts: 4033
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danteIL wrote:
**EDIT: Thought I would edit to include HPHack's suggestion for how to go about this:
Quote:
1. Pick question for BA in forums (signal in channel one)
2. Get as many people to dream about it (signal in channel two)
3. Get as many people to call in those dreams as possible (signal in channel three)
4. Look for change in the output


Hmm, isn't this basically what we did with calling in with dreams about the red-circled words on the torn-out book pages?
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:43 am
Last edited by Phaedra on Mon May 14, 2007 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

Phaedra wrote:
cissmiace wrote:
Has anyone actually directly asked that? I think I might reply to my craigslist.


The problem with that is that as far as I can tell, the game mechanics don't allow it.


Perhaps that is changing, though. From HPHack:
Quote:
I had another dream last night, different from the rest, as if I were remembering a past life or a scene from an adventure movie. Like many of you, I found I couldn't bring myself to call B.A. to describe the dream, so instead I replied to her recent Chicago ad. Who knows if that "counts" in this experiment, but a real dream also sent to BA counts as signal in two channels.


He's supposed to let us know if sending in a dream this way shows up in the Craigslists. Perhaps the PMs are relenting on the call-only mechanism..

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:46 am
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Phaedra
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Right, but as far as limiting the type of things we're "allowed" to say to B.A. (i.e. that she'll acknowledge) and the method in which she responds (CL ads using dream material left by players to tell her story), I don't see a change. We can just submit dreams via email as well as phone now. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:49 am
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

Phaedra wrote:
danteIL wrote:
**EDIT: Thought I would edit to include HPHack's suggestion for how to go about this:
Quote:
1. Pick question for BA in forums (signal in channel one)
2. Get as many people to dream about it (signal in channel two)
3. Get as many people to call in those dreams as possible (signal in channel three)
4. Look for change in the output


Hmm, isn't this basically what we did with calling in with dreams about the red-circled words on the torn-out book pages?


Yep, and that ended up with more vague generalities, which is why I really don't have that much enthusiasm for trying to coordinate something again. Although I *do* like your point that BA is part of the dreamworld too, so we maybe should just dream directly about her. Move her around like the little chesspiece she is..

And you are right that the *type* of things we can communicate about hasn't changed at all, so far...

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:00 am
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

danteIL wrote:

Perhaps that is changing, though. From HPHack:
Quote:
I had another dream last night, different from the rest, as if I were remembering a past life or a scene from an adventure movie. Like many of you, I found I couldn't bring myself to call B.A. to describe the dream, so instead I replied to her recent Chicago ad. Who knows if that "counts" in this experiment, but a real dream also sent to BA counts as signal in two channels.


He's supposed to let us know if sending in a dream this way shows up in the Craigslists. Perhaps the PMs are relenting on the call-only mechanism..


Replying via Craigslist makes even less sense to me than the phone calls.
That is, from a game dynamics perspective. If I believe BA really IS psychic, I can buy into the idea that she'll find my CL replies across all the possible CL cities without benefit of such things as the "BseeingU" tag.

On the meta side, as a player in a game looking for avenues to explore the mystery, I'm not convinced that my CL replies will ever even be found.
Sure, we can use the same "BA" and "BSeeingU" tags, but again, I just don't envision a high success rate for them being found.
If I feel like that, why would I even waste my time posting to CL.

I guess, if anybody asks, I can just tell them I've been posting madly to CL.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:01 pm
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