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 Forum index » Diversions » TimeWasters
[PUZZLE TRAIL] "Torment"
Moderators: Giskard, ndemeter, ScarpeGrosse
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King of De Nile
Greenhorn

Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 4

Blocks, Blocks, and More Blocks

Well, I made it to the blocks. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, though... Very Happy

A thought I had was...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
We haven't had an amazingly hard type of encryption yet, just many devilish ways to use them. What if the rotated blocks are the clue? Maybe each direction of cubes uses a different ROT, with spaces included? It would explain the extra snails/bunny/animal-thing blocks as the needed 27th symbol, and the reason for having the blocks face different ways. I've thrown something together in Excel to do this, but don't know how to test it short of trying all 531,440 possible combinations. I'd rather not do that, especially as it's just an idea, not a definite answer. Any ideas of how I could test this theory without going crazy hitting a button almost half a million times?


Edit: Nix on that idea; it definitely isn't the way to solve. Back to the drawing board...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:21 am
Last edited by King of De Nile on Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Skipjack
Boot


Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 13

Yay! Past the girl with the tape.... man! I was making that thing way more complicated than I needed to. Smile

Past the roaches.... on the gargoyle.






I probably should get some work done today. Smile

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:42 pm
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Tibiazak
Guest


runes

yea, i don't really have the time or inclination to translate all that, especially when i can barely see it all. could somebody give me a section that is pertinent? or should i go after that section at the
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
bottom right of the screen?


PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:23 pm
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Skipjack
Boot


Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 13

Quote:
yea, i don't really have the time or inclination to translate all that...


Well, we can't do all the work for you, Tibiazak. Smile And.. if this one is causing you to throw your hands up.. there's much worse to come.

Hmm.. how can give you a hint without giving too much away...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
You may want to ask Billy Boyd.


I'm on the red river right now... I recognize the style of writing here. It's from an equally cryptic manuscript.

[EDIT].. Passed it... I think I went about it in a round about way rather than how you smart folks handled it. Smile Let's just say I got lucky when I was looking for a clue to give to Tibiazak.

But now, I'm back at Déjà vu?.... stumped on what to do here.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:00 pm
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Tibiazak
Guest


ok, thanks for the hint. when i said "i don't have the time or inclination" i meant that i didn't want to have to sift through however many different alphabets there are to try and translate it... i like to have my options narrowed down. with that hint, i think i can figure it out.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:55 pm
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tipsila
Unfettered


Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 545
Location: In the back of your mind

Skipjack wrote:
But now, I'm back at Déjà vu?.... stumped on what to do here.


What did you do the first time?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:56 pm
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Skipjack
Boot


Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 13

Quote:
What did you do the first time?

Keyed in the obvious word. But, if I do that again... I'll be going in a circle.

I tried encrypting it with itself.. but, that didn't work. Or, at least the method I used didn't. Hmmm...


[EDIT] Oh, wait.... Embarassed

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:07 pm
Last edited by Skipjack on Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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King of De Nile
Greenhorn

Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 4

Skipjack wrote:
Quote:
What did you do the first time?

Keyed in the obvious word. But, if I do that again... I'll be going in a circle.

I tried encrypting it with itself.. but, that didn't work. Or, at least the method I used didn't. Hmmm...


There's been a few times where I've over thought the puzzles. When in doubt, try doing something stupid. If you stick with it, the stupid sometimes works.

And on the blocks, I'm trying a new tactic, if anyone really cares. It involves some research, so it looks like I'm hitting the library this weekend.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
The 27 types of blocks really bugs me. I'm thinking it might be a trifid, but it's a majorly difficult cipher to break if it is. I'm sure I'm overthinking this, overlooking something, but I want to eliminate it before moving on to a new angle.


PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:25 pm
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Albedo
Boot

Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 34

I don't have much free time at the moment, so I'm just going to put an untested idea out here for the blocks puzzle:

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
This looks like it could be a homophonic substitution (multiple symbols for each letter of the plaintext if you're not familiar with the term). As these usually work by using a large number of symbols for common letters, and less for rarer letters It's very unlikely that the same symbol appears twice in a row. However in this puzzle there are two Qs with the same orientation next to each other in the final column of blocks. This would suggest therefore that a rare letter to which only one symbol has been allocated appears as a double letter in the plaintext. The most likely candidate (in my opinion) is Z, so assuming the message reads up the columns, the last word of the plaintext might possibly be 'dizziness' or similar.

edit:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):

There's also a double H which I hadn't previously noticed. Oh well.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:23 am
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tripitaka
Boot

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 35

Hi Albedo
It seems homophonic subsitutions are a way to successfully hide character frequency so that sounds promising here.

Edit:
There is a crime-solving web page which deals with attempts to crack an unsolved group of ciphers known as the "Zodiac" letters (one solved one was found to be homophonic)... and unsolved ciphers have previously seemed to interest grngecko (Voynich, Kryptos).
Curiously, the address of the page is http://crimeshadows.com/sisco.htm
...when grngecko was prompted about the blocks page he said he was going to the region of the shadows - so things like that jump out at me now!

Cryptool allows random homophonic encrytion and when applied in reverse to the blocks puzzle letters the output doesn't look too awful, maybe a bit of tweaking to the assigned letters would improve the output

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:02 am
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tripitaka
Boot

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 35

As an aside, for those curious about the text of one of the Zodiac letters which was solved (Zodiac 408) it is available at http://crimeshadows.com/sisco.htm
WARNING*** - NOT for the faint-hearted, that Zodiac guy was one sick puppy. If the Zodiac ciphers are relevant here then, if nothing else, it would certainly reinforce the theme of Torment

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:35 pm
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Aiobhan
Decorated


Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 223

I realize I pretty much bailed on y'all after I got to the blocks.

But I am watching, and... if you guys manage to crack this thing, I swear to god I'll have to buy you all a latte or something. This is ridiculous.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:45 am
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tripitaka
Boot

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 35

Hehe well it doesn't seem much progress has been made despite all the efforts so I don't think you're in much danger of buying a round of lattes!

Anyway, one of the solved Zodiac ciphers (Z408) was a homophonic cipher based on a 53 letter alphabet, another partially solved cipher (Z340) was based on a 63 letter alphabet.

If (a BIG "if" I know) this is relevant then hopefully we don't have to resort to puzzle block-orientations to pack out the alphabet, so maybe it works the other way, single letters mapping to multiple (presumably sequential) letter choices. When I put the block puzzle letters through cryptool's random homophonic decryptor thingy the entropy drops (thats good isn't it?) so maybe if we had a better template to map the assigned letters the output would further improve, I wonder if the Zodiac alphabets might represent possible templates?

http://www.dtm.ciw.edu/chris/z/ gives a tentative key for the Z340 cipher as

ALATEPHHISSEIHOIRSTUBSSAEVEWSAAAMEEAGMES_STKLLTHCNLLTDAOSSEBLNE

Could we map this to
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm(SLUG)nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghi???

The Z408 alphabet could be similarly presented based on the available decodes and might be a better option since the key is definitive as that cipher has been completely solved.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:56 pm
Last edited by tripitaka on Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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tripitaka
Boot

Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 35

Regarding the picture of the little girl on the blocks page, I recall my first thought when seeing it was "The Excorcist"

I have noticed that one of the Zodiac killer's plaintext letters is known as the Exorcist letter. http://www.zodiackiller.com/ExorcistLetter.html

Still on the topic of Zodiac ciphers, I found another key for a cipher (Z378) apparently now used as a template example for Zodiac solves

http://www.zodiackiller.com/discus/messages/29/642.html?1167787613#POST8911 )

The key is:
EYENAGMNDREEDNRSWREETFCTTHHTFILVTLOOOIHAOAASSSOBHU_KPUPJ

The deciphered text for that cipher is "As grey traces of dawn tinge the eastern sky, the three travelers, men of Willow Dale, emerge from the forest shadow.
Fording the River Dawn, they turn south, journeying into the dark and forbidding lands of the Necromancer. Even now the
intensity of his dread power can be felt, weakening the body and saddening the heart. Ultimately they will become empty,
mindless spectres, stripped of will and soul. Only their thirst for freedom gives them hunger for vengeance..."

- which immediately put me in mind of grngecko's other clue relating to a song sung by a servant of Tolkein's wraith lord.

Edit:
Bugger! that key doesn't seem to work.
Just when it seemed that grngecko's clues were starting to make sense too!

PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:39 am
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StarkRavingMad
Decorated

Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 250

Well, an excellent try nonetheless, trip. I feel like you're getting closer to this than I am. I've been trying various decryption methods on strings, basing those strings on the orientation of the slugs (like some sort of variant of the circles puzzle from earlier), but I haven't come up with anything but gibberish and writer's cramp.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:08 pm
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