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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Deus City » DC: Deus City
[Blue District]Puzzle: "Sign Language" [SOLVED]
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

Could this be perhaps in a foreign language, where the "extra" five symbols refer to letters with accents? German wouldn't work, since they only have a single accent, which isn't placed over the e or i. They do have a "sz" letter which looks like a lower-case (greek) beta, but that only brings the total to 30. French is another story; there are at least (it's been a while) four different accents, making the total number of "letters" much larger.

Unfortunately, my french sucks, or I might try to work it out...

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:49 am
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plikma
Boot

Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 60

Hi! I'm the person using the handle "Quentin Smith" over there by the way.

LuxCal wrote:
Could this be perhaps in a foreign language, where the "extra" five symbols refer to letters with accents? German wouldn't work, since they only have a single accent, which isn't placed over the e or i. They do have a "sz" letter which looks like a lower-case (greek) beta, but that only brings the total to 30. French is another story; there are at least (it's been a while) four different accents, making the total number of "letters" much larger.

Unfortunately, my french sucks, or I might try to work it out...


You could be onto something. However bear in mind-

I still think those words are so long one of those symbols must represent a space sign.

I think the "Priority over oncoming traffic" is a punctuation mark as it is unique.

If it is another language that makes frequency analysis a whole lot harder.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:41 am
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jeremo
Boot


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 17
Location: NYC

what if we tried to attribute letters and symbols to the signs by shape? I know, that would take a lot of fudging around, and it's extremely interpretive, but why not? other thoughts:

do we have the page oriented the right way?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:25 pm
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

plikma wrote:
Hi! I'm the person using the handle "Quentin Smith" over there by the way.

LuxCal wrote:
Could this be perhaps in a foreign language, where the "extra" five symbols refer to letters with accents? German wouldn't work, since they only have a single accent, which isn't placed over the e or i. They do have a "sz" letter which looks like a lower-case (greek) beta, but that only brings the total to 30. French is another story; there are at least (it's been a while) four different accents, making the total number of "letters" much larger.

Unfortunately, my french sucks, or I might try to work it out...


You could be onto something. However bear in mind-

I still think those words are so long one of those symbols must represent a space sign.

I think the "Priority over oncoming traffic" is a punctuation mark as it is unique.

If it is another language that makes frequency analysis a whole lot harder.

I don't think there is a space sign there. The most common symbol is the first one, which appears 9 times. That means that there would only be nine words to the message, which would make it difficult to encode the wording of three different signs (which is the answer we're supposed to come up with).

Also, there are several signs that only appear once; a quick tally shows 12.

What evidence do we have that this is a simple substitution cipher (not that I have any better ideas...)?

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:10 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

With "word" lengths that long without a break, and an alphabet using more than 18-20 symbols (in this case more than 26), I might offer some other possibilities.

Maybe take similar symbols, group them by type or common characteristics. Then there could be 2 or 3 symbols all mapping to the same alphabetic letter. (I forget if there is a term for this sort of redundancy, multi-to-single mapping?)

Or, take the symbols in pairs or triplets. Are there any repeated groups or patterns? That would then reduce to a single-substitution, but sets of symbols would stand for a single letter.

I haven't tried either of these ideas on this puzzle, I'm just tossing out things i've seen in the past.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:41 pm
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

catherwood wrote:
With "word" lengths that long without a break, and an alphabet using more than 18-20 symbols (in this case more than 26), I might offer some other possibilities.

Maybe take similar symbols, group them by type or common characteristics. Then there could be 2 or 3 symbols all mapping to the same alphabetic letter. (I forget if there is a term for this sort of redundancy, multi-to-single mapping?)

Or, take the symbols in pairs or triplets. Are there any repeated groups or patterns? That would then reduce to a single-substitution, but sets of symbols would stand for a single letter.

I haven't tried either of these ideas on this puzzle, I'm just tossing out things i've seen in the past.

Don't forget, we still need to get the text of three signs out of all this. There are only 86 signs (I think I counted right) altogether. If we take an average of 5 letters/word, that makes 17 words. Out of this, we need to get (1) the text of the three signs, and (according to the assignment) (2) instructions to post said signs around town.

We may need to look at it the other way around: instead of multiple symbols referring to a single letter, perhaps each symbol represents multiple letters -- this is how they stored the text for the old infocom games, iirc.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:38 am
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WolfHawk
Entrenched


Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 1247
Location: St. Louis

Maybe each symbol is a word?
_________________
Having abandoned my search for the truth I am now looking for a good fantasy.

The light at the end of the tunnel may be the headlight of an oncoming train.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:53 am
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thorlin
Greenhorn

Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 8

I think we need to be clear as to what we're looking for. Maybe it's a bad idea to take the instructions literally, but they state

"The encryption database has identified some of what the note says... apparently it is instructions for the recipient to post a number of signs around town. We think that no more than 3 different signs could have been made without anyone noticing. If we knew what they said, we could track down this Underground member in our midst."

If we believe this statement, and believe that what we are seeing is the entire note, then it should include the instructions for posting the signs. Additionally, the answer they are looking for is what the 3 signs say, so therefore the note includes that as well.

So this note should include the instructions for posting the the signs as well as what they say. Also, it states they have identified "some of what the note says". I thought I saw a previous post about someone asking for that piece of the translation from Lisa, however now I can't find it.

Anyway...just some thoughts.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:00 pm
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amandathehunter
Greenhorn


Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 5
Location: Bakersfield, CA until 7/2, then St. Louis, MO

Since we all pretty much seem to agree that it means words, and is most likely in english, we've got to figure out what each sign stands for.

The most commonly used letter in the english langauge (by a long shot) is "e".

So look at the paper, find which symbol occurs the most, and replace it with E.

Here's what you get. (. are untranslated symbols)

E...........
.........E......
.....E........
...
E.......
.........
...E.....E.E...
E...E
....

Now this is just a guess, basing it off the most common letter in this message being an E. If we had some type of key, or part of the message, this would snap into place.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:53 pm
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

LuxCal wrote:
catherwood wrote:
With "word" lengths that long without a break, and an alphabet using more than 18-20 symbols (in this case more than 26), I might offer some other possibilities.

Maybe take similar symbols, group them by type or common characteristics. Then there could be 2 or 3 symbols all mapping to the same alphabetic letter. (I forget if there is a term for this sort of redundancy, multi-to-single mapping?)

Or, take the symbols in pairs or triplets. Are there any repeated groups or patterns? That would then reduce to a single-substitution, but sets of symbols would stand for a single letter.

I haven't tried either of these ideas on this puzzle, I'm just tossing out things i've seen in the past.

Don't forget, we still need to get the text of three signs out of all this. There are only 86 signs (I think I counted right) altogether. If we take an average of 5 letters/word, that makes 17 words. Out of this, we need to get (1) the text of the three signs, and (according to the assignment) (2) instructions to post said signs around town.

We may need to look at it the other way around: instead of multiple symbols referring to a single letter, perhaps each symbol represents multiple letters -- this is how they stored the text for the old infocom games, iirc.

Something else just occurred to me. This has to also be simple enough that two people solved it "quickly"...

Any idea who those two people are?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:42 pm
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thorlin
Greenhorn

Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 8

I'm not sure it is going to help, but I've messaged Lisa (person making the task assignment) for the partial translation they have. Maybe we'll get something back that works as a key.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:12 pm
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notgordian
Unfictologist


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 1383
Location: Philly

LuxCal--in the past, some puzzles that have remained unsolved had solution counts ranging between 2-6(ish) as the PMs checked the system to make sure it works properly. So the fact that 2 people are reported to have solved the puzzle does not necessarily guarantee the answer is easy. I would assume that is the case here, as they would want to check everything is in order.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:13 pm
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

notgordian wrote:
LuxCal--in the past, some puzzles that have remained unsolved had solution counts ranging between 2-6(ish) as the PMs checked the system to make sure it works properly. So the fact that 2 people are reported to have solved the puzzle does not necessarily guarantee the answer is easy. I would assume that is the case here, as they would want to check everything is in order.

Oops.

OK, I admit it. I'm a newbie. I'll go away until I have something more substantial to offer. Smile

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:47 pm
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thorlin
Greenhorn

Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 8

Well, asking Lisa for some information didn't get me anywhere. Her response:

Quote:
Hello "thorlin". Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, work's been even busier than usual lately. It looks like the Defensecorp editors messed up on that. We haven't actually translated any of the message, but since it was posted to someone in sign manufacture, that's what we think it is. I can't imagine the Underground wanting anything elsee from one of our men.


We'll have to figure it out on our own.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:28 pm
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LuxCal
Boot

Joined: 05 Jun 2007
Posts: 43
Location: Deep within your psyche

thorlin wrote:
Well, asking Lisa for some information didn't get me anywhere. Her response:

Quote:
Hello "thorlin". Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, work's been even busier than usual lately. It looks like the Defensecorp editors messed up on that. We haven't actually translated any of the message, but since it was posted to someone in sign manufacture, that's what we think it is. I can't imagine the Underground wanting anything elsee from one of our men.


We'll have to figure it out on our own.


I got a similar message, with the following at the end:

Quote:
The Underground are quite smart, and they know how much they can get away with without being caught. We have checks every so often in the factories, usually for QA purposes. The unusual signs would certainly have been spotted in a check, so they didn't risk making many.


PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:30 pm
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