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AngriBuddhist
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thebruce wrote:
I don't know if it would be as significant a catalyst to advancing the genre as hoped...


Not to keep repeating myself but I never claimed to have the answers for those problems. In my temper tantrum, I was saying that people who were concerned with those problems should be interested in having these types of conversations.

Clarity is something I find in editing. The preview button is fast becoming my new best friend.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:06 pm
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tinag222
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 		?
I'm not a PM per se so this may be a case that I am missing what you're asking, even though I think I got it...so consider mine hypothetical just in case. Razz This was actually inspired from one of the other threads that a PM was wondering about, and I tried to think in terms of solutions for PM, which returned me to this one.


I have two approaches, either or both may be an incorrect understanding of the question.

First one:

Someone was wondering about the ways and means of working out a dead drop in a whole other state when he/she had no access to the state, didn't know anyone, etc.


Solution that came to mind, and I'll use myself, mine, to illustrate what I have in mind.

The name would be generic and vague, but with an inherent nuance of creepy and/or intrigue. The List. The Service. The Agency. That sort of thing. It can provide a basic template for any theme, but for illustration purposes I'll arbitrarily use The Agency. There is a white, clean, professional "realtor" style website that could just about pass for a Kellygirl or Temp services site as well.

Main page contains a short and sweet profile blurb about "this month's top agent!" with a nice professional business like photo, a name and whatever little write up describing how The Agency is proud to announce this person as agent of the month. Another page is very simple, and a Whos Who with state/country categories and agents in each one, including contact. To any general websurfer who might encounter it, they'd probably assume at face value it's about real estate agents or it's about salespeople or even temp service employees who are just being spotlighted....but it's not providing a company name, it doesn't list specifically what The Agency does. It's a front operation of a playerbase or even a strictly PM operation, that will volunteer to help other PMs carry out nationally oriented dead drops. PMs can use The Agency as a call list basically and make contact with any of the Agents and work out their arrangements.

Any specific themed playerbase can use the same template but with a little different design, so techhies or scifis or goths or whatever has its own "face"...but the service provided remains the same: dead drop agents for PMs to help them broaden their scope.

Should general websurfers enquire as to the nature of the services, the site could also function as a rabbit hole, perhaps with its own mild/low level arg in place, the solution of which informs the general person who pursues their curiosity of what the service does...or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it can continue to remain cryptic and cheerfully and legitimately encourage new people to become agents, get on the list....and nothing would really happen unless a PM could use them, and contacts them and explains the agenda.

There doesn't necessarily have to be just one of such sites. There can be however many of them...but they can always be linked together or part of a "hub" of services with that "storefront"...the storefront can maybe come up with a catchy ad to run on UF and ARGN...and let it go at that.


The other approach can be illustrated by using "slusho" in the example. Slusho apparently originated in Alias...but now it's incorporated into the movie...and is mentioned again in characters' ms pages. Some product that can be useful as a "prop" that may or may not be directly utilized in any particular plot but that players recognize as part of the unreality, same as we'd treat slusho. We're buying tshirts r/t for a drink that does not even exist....and in second life, we're spending r/t money for land that does not exist. The player base recognizes this prop or product as part of the reality, no matter which - and can be considered the one single nod that TINAG but it is. If any website or character happens to mention in passing about "so I had another slusho and went to bed" then that serves to move the whole thing along into ARGland and cuts down on much of the WTF aspect. It doesn't expose the plot, the background, the story, the characters, the clues, the puzzles - it basically serves as an IG tag that it's an ARG and that's all it does.

It can also be used IG - once again using slusho to illustrate. This product or service even, or prop, etc. would have its own website, back history, all "legit" in appearance....with one little caveat - part of the backstory on the company website is that the product, service, prop, whatever has infected or impaced the customer in some such fashion....the customer is referring to the players of any arg. "Customers" can interact with the staff of this product, can join the mailing list for "new flavor updates" or there could be a static sort of "upcoming grand opening" (that never happens) and new customers, existing customers, visitors, can email the staff for their "free invitation for two" to the celebration - all this is codespeak for developing one actual playerbase of people wanting to play args and via this company PMs can provide invitations to the players at their choosing..."You are cordially invited to" whatever...solve this clue, be at this location, visit that site, contact that person, however....but it would serve as an in game hub for PMs and players to find each other while upholding the whole curtain - everyone inside knows the actual function but it can be "used" in any of their storylines as bait or a reference or contact point, etc.

It's part of the in world reality, not a meta, out of game service to PMs or players...and to keep people primed either illustration could provide its own little bait arg, like the salad before the main dish...or like having stepped into the pod waiting to be transported into whatever alternate reality comes for them. Keeping the websites generic and cryptic serves to reel in the outsiders and broaden the player base. They can be pulled in same as they would've been otherwise.

If this is not where you were headed, apologies. But if I was a PM, I'd want at least those two services - a way to broaden my net of players by having a network of contacts across the country, and a relatively central pool of sorts to find a bunch of people ready and willing to play what I have on offer. The 2nd approach doesn't necessarily imply PMs use it to launch - but it can if they can use it that way, but instead to have an idea of a player base, to be able to get a group going and let it expand naturally from this base, or to find a small group in any given area as a test base....and nobody has to step out from the curtain - there would be the intermediary "service" that is completely accepted in world as just another service.

Such as the approach about the newspaper. It's not so much news about args - there's argn for that. It's like the in game Times - the paper printed or published in world...real news, sure....and then when it comes up, in game stories or articles, even press releases for new corporations...or obituaries, or births, or "real estate" listings which could be code for "players wanted in such and such location"...it could also have its own built in craig's list.

Like second life but ARG life....and yet in world nobody acknowledges it's all fiction...it's assumed reality. Silent's ARG Inc could actually play well in this respect - both as a game in and of itself but also as a legit service that brings both groups together in an in world sense.

UF and ARGN are predominantly OOG, and if IU was attempting to go the other direction they might be better served as a forum with in world activities. So we go there as OOG people and join threads dedicated to games and then "jump in." Having something that is accepted solely as in game at all times, that "lives" in ARGland is what I am suggesting.


It'd make finding games easier and make finding players for games easier...and the challenge of discovery can maintain a focus on the story instead of finding something to play at all....

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:49 am
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konamouse
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 		I think I get it!
Like the law firm that was used in two different ARGs.
The website is maintained and any time any ARG needs a lawyer, they would refer to Landman, Luckman & Lake (cause they are known in the ARGverse as a reputable firm).

Or there is an ARGverse newspaper site. Stocked with real news on a semi-regular basis, but can be used to place personal ads (for new games "For Sale: 1999 Saturn Wagon, runs great but there is a dark brown stain and a mysterious box in the trunk" or "Desperately Seeking Shannon - have you seen my girlfriend? She went to the 7-11 the other night and never came home. This letter with some weird code showed up in my mailbox the next day? Can you help me?").

Reopen that University site used for Acheron or build another one. Then characters could be alumni (and you can find their yearbook picture or something about them for their backstory).

This would take a cabal of PMs working together to maintain and update (trusting eachother with access) but could be useful for both largescale groups and established grassroots teams.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:32 am
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danashulps
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 		As an aspiring PM, I just have to throw my voice into the mix right now.

First of all, Craigslist is great for what it is. But for posting trailheads? I don't think so. It can absolutely be used as an in-game resource, as a way to try and bring people into the ARG or even ARG as a genre. But there also needs to be some way to subtly announce the trailhead to the existing ARG community.

Someone stumbling across a strange post on Craigslist would probably either shrug it off, or maybe dig a little deeper, find some strange things, and just go to bed thinking about it. What would make them come to Unforums and post about it, to get more people involved with the game? What would inspire them to get a community together to uncover the mystery, which I think we'll all agree is an essential part of ARG as it is now.

I think a news service would be excellent, but only if it was done right. It would need to be very inconspicuous; no mention of Alternate Reality Gaming at all, on the whole thing (except perhaps an in-joke, maybe in the source code.)

Many times, things that happen in an ARG should make the national news; or, at least, they should be able to be found SOMEWHERE online at a news service. When Lucy Middleton was burned alive in the PhoenixFire Corporation building along with hundreds of other people(Psychic Readings), one of the only surviving characters posted a news article on his blog. It came off awkwardly (if you ask me.) If the PM could have posted it on a news site that contained real news, it would have been much better.

Tanya could post asking if anyone has seen her sister Tricia. The news of a webcam serial killer should be out there somewhere. If a bunch of college kids contacted the future, don't you think the world would know about it? The world's oil supply runs out faster than anyone expected... and the AP doesn't mention it at all. James goes missing? His family should be asking the world if anyone's seen him.

A news site would definitely be a good PM tool.

-----------

I do have more ideas, but I have more work than I should. So I'll be back in this thread later to post about 'em.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:10 pm
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 		tinag222<---
Quote:
Like the law firm that was used in two different ARGs.
The website is maintained and any time any ARG needs a lawyer, they would refer to Landman, Luckman & Lake (cause they are known in the ARGverse as a reputable firm).



Yes, that's essentially what I meant - only I didn't know about the law firm. But that's the idea. I'd like to add to that one that this option could also help either cut back on opportunity for gamejacking, or at least help differentiate real from GJ if there could be established among PMs and players alike someone that is known and trusted to set it up or at least acknowledge it as "the" inworld firm, service, product, prop, etc. Whether they run it or not is optional but if one arg uses "The Service" or "Carl's List" or runs into his next contact at the "Slusher machine" - sort of like that, the base can recognize this as legit in game site or event. Even an inworld wiiki - that does the same thing but isn't on the actual wiki service (to prevent OOG bs). In that respect PMs can seed the 'main in game wiki' with whatever character or event information "anonymously" or use an in game character contact that posted it, to help develop characters backgrounds and histories. It's open for all to use and grow game to game and beyond but its full content is inworld only. So, as the orignal question was asked on another thread about developing character stories in some realistic way that would come up in a search, an inworld wiki can be set up to return those search values.

I know people look down on the GJ but thinking outside the box a little, it's clear that a lot of them just want to get involved somewhere and play or PM....so if a GJ site is smoked out, maybe an alternative to blackballing would be to enlist them in some endeavor to let them get involved, or make use of whatever resources they've already thrown on the table. I think the intentions of most GJers are good, but misdirected and rude so if they could be potentially used in some manner they'd be more likely to halt all attempts at GJing in favor of getting what they were originally after, even if it's a small role for a brief time, it'll pad the ego enough to distract them from disrupting things and maybe enlist them to productively assist.

I guess why I got stuck on this aspect is that ARG makes use of all these media options, so it seems to me that there should be an accepted inworld pool of media resources that are used. It's a larger goal but if the inworld media was part of this argland itself then it's recognized as such, right down to common email domains. player2SPLATinworld.com and all argers could sign up with inworld.com and get an email acct, messengers, social profiles, all that. The players then can provide fictional contact information that resolves to a real one and cut down on worrying about OOG BS.

If everyone is aware ARGland is fiction anyway, then it's not destroying anyone's illusions and mystery if there is established and developed an actual "argland" universe where inside are all the args, pms, players, locations, media services - kinda like six flags. Then you step out of it when you're done playing and can return to UF or ARGN or IU to discuss what your experiences are.Maybe UF could function as a sort of meta ticketmaster to argland, but in a more literal sense Razz

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:45 pm
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AngriBuddhist
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danashulps wrote:
I do have more ideas, but I have more work than I should. So I'll be back in this thread later to post about 'em.


Whether this is "work" is related to ARGs or not, it is part of my point. PMs only have so much time. The idea being that sites can be created as fitting "in-game" and offer services to a player as well as the PM.

Since we are finally getting to the meet of the idea-

The originally intent of this thread was to question people who have experience in the creative process in the ARG community. Providing a solution for a particular issue or providing a desired service would validate these sites but they are not the core purpose behind these ideas.

The repeated desire that community members have to create "something more" is an expression of reality. Something is either missing from, or could be added to, Alternate Reality Gaming. I'm sure that most will whole-heartedly disagree while others will have their own opinions on what that "something" is.

I wanted to hear answers that would reveal what PMs wished existed and hoped that I could asertain an approach for a problem that I perceive.

When the PM updates the game their player base is immediately pulled back into their reality. Once the update has been absorbed, though, it's back to Unfiction (read: home base), and back to our reality until the next update.

My thought is that there is more available here than these on/off positions. I believe that there is a layer in between them. Here the player could be somewhere away from the PMs grasp yet not quite back to reality. They could find story points across multiple sites giving them the impression that the events, characters and places have depth and exist.

On a site such as the "Reclaimers" they could create a "persona" that they could roleplay and potentially use in various ARGs. A "news site" is not only a way for PMs to realistically announce items that should be on a news site but the players themselves are in-character searching for mysteries that need to be solved. They are "roleplaying" a detective even if they don't realize it.

There are many ways (thebruce's first post- pg.2) that this layer can be filled and tied into the ARGs and needs of PMs. Who knows, maybe with the right ideas, new needs and options can be created? I do know, however, for anything to survive there it'll need the support of the PM developement community.

Ideas like those of rekidk, rose, konamouse, thebruce, danashulps and tinag222 would all fit into what I'm refering to as long as there is never the reference to any of these sites as being anything but real.

This layer has the potential to not only widen the scope of the resouces a PM has but also offer ARG players a way to roleplay an existence in-game that PMs don't have to build, but only support.

I'll call it the rolep.layer if that defines it well enough.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:19 pm
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redct
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 		Angri and I were talking about this over MSN for a while. Basically, one of our ideas: say we set up a few websites tied to fictional organizations (I'm using the idea of an "ARGUniversity" here)

We set up ARGVersity, as I will call it. It's a regular university that also has a law school. We set up the "ARGNews" news paper. We set up the "ARGLaw" law firm. They all fit together.

A PM decides to use this network in one of his ARGs. A main character is a lawyer - he graduated from ARGVersity in 1989. He was a minor lawyer at the ARGLaw firm for 2 years.

This could also be used in puzzles/plot elements. Say a plot element is someone he prosecuted while at ARGLaw has a grudge against him and hired a hitman/stalker/etc. We need to find out more about the case, so we look at the ARGVersity yearbooks. He graduated in 1989. We go to ARGLaw's archives (have to get the password first, of course. another puzzle) and search for employment in 1989 and 1990. He is there, we find the case file. Another plot point.

That above example would take quite some attention to detail and a bit of programming, but you get the general idea of PMs using and sharing the history of things in the "network".

PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:27 pm
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Rogi Ocnorb
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:05 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


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 		It's getting clearer...
but I still see the hurdle of incorporating shared assets among different ARGs. For assets that no particular PM is in control of, who determines 'canon'? Granted, set history is much easier to work with because what's done is done - as long as 'new' details that are added don't conflict with an existing ARG. Consider - a PM uses an existing character or organization - incorporating it into the ARG may mean 'colouring' the character a bit, detailing their history and such. Either the PM has the freedom to do this (which means there's potential for conflict/inconsistency if another ARG also has that freedom) or they need to return it to the "owner" of said assets and request their additions become canon, which in turn means that any other running ARG using that asset needs to incorporate that new info into their ARG.

I guess that's a detailed way of saying - in-game assets not controlled by particular PMs would need to be 'borrowed' or 'loaned' for the period of time required for the ARG. Kind of like checking out a file, only much stricter - more than one person can 'use' an asset, but the assets can't be modified until no conflict is guaranteed (the asset's not being used at all) - that way any ARG plot will be safe from unexpected canon history updates.

Perhaps I'm just getting far too detailed... The idea of "ARGLaw" and such spawned that... 'using' a lawyer in your ARG means you either can only use their canon history, or they essentially become 'yours' until you return them. Otherwise any change could cause problem with other ARGs.

I just see it as a matter of control, and many PMs want full control over their assets, and FLmutant said. I think it would attract certain types of ARGs and PMs, but I dunno, it's late, it's after 3am, and I'm rambling. as usual =P
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:15 am
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tinag222
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 		So just to verify whether it's 3am and you're rambling, or if it's really 4:45am and I should've gone to bed already....

are you meaning the same thing as say, using slusho product to illustrate, that if one arg happened to provide back history that slusho only created 6 flavors and they're all fruity, there would be potential control or conflict issue if another arg at some other point provided back history that slusho was closed down due to using red color that killed 500 people in NY, and only created 3 flavors that were all with a cherry base? That sort of thing - and that there would need to be a base ownership that lent out the product so long as it remained within the constructed reality for it?

IF that is along the lines of what you meant, I'd only add two small points: 1. there's an issue of trust on the table anyway between PM and playerbase that isn't really required to be challenged since we're all aware it's a game and each one is different, and then 2. if we recognize each one is different, then even changing a history to use in world could be accepted or acceptable or overlooked, and chances are if it's only really used as a "tag" in the same sort of context as when we see "ratedPG" we get it it's a movie, then it probably won't get anymore substantial airplay in a game beyond the subtle nod players are in game now so play.

IF that's not what ya meant then option 2 is true and I should go to bed.

Razz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:48 am
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AngriBuddhist
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 		thebruce,

The rolep.layer that I describe above could encompass a wide varitey of ideas. There isn't any idea of mine, or any one idea that has been presented here, that defines the concept. I believe that redct's "network" of a variety of independent (your original post) and interlinked sites is closer to what I'm getting at. I don't mean to be vague but the is no way to say "Here!!! Look!!! This is what I've been pondering." Quite frankly the proposition of fleshing out this concept seems daunting. Shocked

The point of asking for ideas has been to a.) qualify my opinion b.) examine the options c.) ascertain the difficulties.

This response is on the topic of "sharing" of assets as opposed to utilizing a service such as a "news site".

It's 5:22 a.m. here and I'll try my best to address this-

thebruce wrote:
I guess that's a detailed way of saying - in-game assets not controlled by particular PMs would need to be 'borrowed' or 'loaned' for the period of time required for the ARG. Kind of like checking out a file, only much stricter - more than one person can 'use' an asset, but the assets can't be modified until no conflict is guaranteed (the asset's not being used at all) - that way any ARG plot will be safe from unexpected canon history updates.


I'm tired and this may be me talking out of my ass.

As a registered PM on this "network" couldn't it be as simple as having a sign up sheet of sorts?

Asset #46248

Sheriff Bob Roberts
Level: 3
Status: Available

You specify the timeframe that you would reserve it for along with information on how this will affect the asset. If needed, you could request a "level" change. Off the top of my head- Level: 1- No constraints, Level: 5- Review and approval of all actions required by So-n-So.

Other PMs could easily see what the asset was, how long it'll be reserved, and how it'll have been affected once you are done using it.

This would allow PMs to simultaneously plan the use of assets as they would already know what the others were going to do prior to them doing it.

As an example, one PM has already reserved the "Reclaimers" fictional character Sheriff Bob Roberts for use as a Minor in a murder/mystery ARG that takes place partly at ARG University. In the course of the game Sheriff Bob is wounded. His last appearence involves being driven away in an ambulance. Now, although it doesn't change the fact that Bob is a dutiful and qualified lawman, his profile on the Reclaimer's site hints at his belief that he was once abducted by Aliens. Twisted Evil

Whether the players of the first ARG even knew of Bob's involvement with the Reclaimers isn't relative.

The PMs of the second ARG knew that Bob would be injured and hospitalized months before they needed to have their storyline "locked". They decide to begin their ARG with a news story.

"A Hicks County ambulance was discovered abandoned on Route 666 this morning. The police have no statement to release at this time as the investigation is 'still ongoing'. A local resident, however, gave us a description of the vehicle. 'Alt the glass es jest missin. Wernt broked er nuffin. Like et wer melt er sumtin.'"

A few days later Bob reappears on the Reclaimers site with some odd behaviors.



I know that it would be more complicated than that but it's late and I'm literally wrestling with my eyelids.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:57 am
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konamouse
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 		This entire thread would be amazing topic for discussion on an ARGNetcast!!!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:42 am
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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tinag222 wrote:
are you meaning the same thing as say, using slusho product to illustrate

Yeah, along those lines I think


Angri, I feel like a devil's advocate more and more here Wink heh

The problem I foresee with that aspect of checking out an assets and including details on its entire use is that PMs then may have to divulge significant plot points. Again, it's a matter of whether the PM is willing to do so, but this structure means there's the inherent aspect of PMs 'losing' complete control and secrecy about projects they're working on.

Then there's also security about who has access on the website into PM resources, and the ability to view all the assets. How do you separate a player from a (potential?) PM?

The recurring problem it seems is the issue of PMs having less control - though it is a subjective concern, not a 'flaw' in the system per se.

Quote:
1. there's an issue of trust on the table anyway between PM and playerbase that isn't really required to be challenged since we're all aware it's a game and each one is different


But in that case the PM still retains creative control over their assets - the players in a sense 'request' changes to in-game assets, which may or may not be accepted by the PM as per their flexibility (much like they would typically ignore oog/meta communications to ingame characters - PMs decide how to react to player interaction). In the former case, it's a matter of a lateral conflict, where the asset may not retain an individual ownership, so the 'rights' of simultaneous PM users may conflict - who gets dibs on the update, and how does the update affect other PMs?

Quote:
2. if we recognize each one is different, then even changing a history to use in world could be accepted or acceptable or overlooked

overlooked - opening that door means potential inconsistencies... a player takes a look at the character on the ingame website, but the history doesn't fall in line with a specific ARG's plot/developments, for example. Again, it's up to the PM to decide if that's an acceptable risk, but it's a detrement to the arg's "quality" (for lack of a better term) or believability.


And Kona - totally Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:10 am
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FLmutant
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thebruce wrote:
The problem I foresee with that aspect of checking out an assets and including details on its entire use is that PMs then may have to divulge significant plot points. Again, it's a matter of whether the PM is willing to do so, but this structure means there's the inherent aspect of PMs 'losing' complete control and secrecy about projects they're working on.


I think that's part of the problem. The other part of the problem is trying to define what I would actually get as the upside along with those downsides. It seems to be the implied benefit is "a shared backstory rather than having to develop it from scratch to populate a character"?

I'm not at all trying to be negative: I can totally see how this kind of idea could open up the experience of PMing to more people. Some of the shared universe stuff is probably better handled between PMs (like the way Perplex City touched AOTH and vice versa at E3 as friendly nods to each other.)

The other aside that occured to me that this isn't a great way of doing something for the first time: if I gave you a list of the things I want to do that have challenges associated them, I could unintentionally tip my hat to what I have planned. Once it becomes a bit more formulaic it is a bit easier to talk about what was rough about something. A lady has to have some secrets.

As an aside ... anywhere know where I can rent some elephants in Des Moines? Damn Google keeps telling me "no matches" and I don't want to have to ship in elephants all the way from Chicago. And do you think tempra or watercolor paint will work the best for painting them pink? Twisted Evil

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:39 am
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konamouse
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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FLmutant wrote:
As an aside ... anywhere know where I can rent some elephants in Des Moines? Damn Google keeps telling me "no matches" and I don't want to have to ship in elephants all the way from Chicago. And do you think tempra or watercolor paint will work the best for painting them pink? Twisted Evil


Pink Elephant at Casino in Iowa It's in Marquette if that is any help.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:05 am
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