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Websites (or website features) that PMs wish existed
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danashulps
Veteran

Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 91

 		While I do like the idea of creating a variety of fictional websites which all mesh together (sort of like an ARG, don't you think?) I'm not sure I would use them as a PM.

Why would I want to "check out" a character, use him for a limited amount of time, and then "return" him? I could create my own, and have much more control. Plus, if we were talking corruption in a law firm, I'd want to have full control over this website so that I could change things at will. Add pages. Encode messages in the source. That kind of thing.

Plus, if, as a player, I knew that ARGs would frequently be using this ARGversity as an element of their game, I know I would be checking frequently to see if there were any changes. If a new character suddenly appears in the yearbook from two decades ago, well, I'd know something was up. Conversely, as a PM, I'd know people would be watching, so I'd be less inclined to use this "resource."

I think a news source would be a good idea on all sides.

Also, completely unrelated to most of the ideas we've been throwing around, here are some resources I'd like (and which may exist without me knowing, so if you could point me in the right direction...):

1) A free .com domain registrar.
2) A way to check six or seven different email addresses at once.
3) A free way to send text messages from the computer.
4) A free way to send letters, from your computer. There's this but it's only for Canada so it doesn't really help.
5) A way to steg images online, rather than by downloading camouflage or JPHide.

I know I have more to say, but I can't seem to think of it right now. I'll probably be back later today.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:11 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario

 		hmm...
1) A free .com domain registrar.

cheap at $9/yr isn't much, and I use godaddy, but there are others.

2) A way to check six or seven different email addresses at once.

Depending on the nature of the email host, an offline client like Eudora can manage multiple profiles with great filtering... I use it for all my POP3 accounts, and it's nuts.... I've still got emails sorted and stored back to mid-late 90's, and multiple hundreds of spam coming in daily. It doesn't check web-based mail like hotmail (they're strict about that it seems, which sucks), but anything support POP/IMAP and such are good to go. And there are other email clients similar to Eudora.
I haven't checked if gmail allows POP3 remote checking, but I'm sure someone else can shed light on that one...

3) A free way to send text messages from the computer.

check over:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=free+sms

not sure on the others... but maybe that's helpful

/derail
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:24 pm
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SpaceBass
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Joined: 20 Sep 2002
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 		Gmail does allow POP3 access and I believe it also supports checking and importing mail from external POP3 accounts, though I've never tried it myself.

ETA: Google also offers free text messaging (in the US/Canada only, I think), which is available via web or the Toolbar.

E2TA: Postful appears to offer email-to-post in the US, and L-Mail in Australia.

E3TA: Steganography online.

Jetpack
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http://www.unfiction.com/

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:35 pm
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AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.

 		As these ideas are all hypotheticals-

Shared Assets

thebruce wrote:
The recurring problem it seems is the issue of PMs having less control - though it is a subjective concern, not a 'flaw' in the system per se.


danashulps wrote:
Why would I want to "check out" a character, use him for a limited amount of time, and then "return" him? I could create my own, and have much more control. Plus, if we were talking corruption in a law firm, I'd want to have full control over this website so that I could change things at will. Add pages. Encode messages in the source. That kind of thing.


FLmutant wrote:
The other part of the problem is trying to define what I would actually get as the upside along with those downsides. It seems to be the implied benefit is "a shared backstory rather than having to develop it from scratch to populate a character"?


It seems that the level of use would decrease the level of control. Like everything else this would require balance.

With this group (10, 100, 500??) of sites you could choose how you would use them. What I assume is that most willing PMs would use them to suppliment and flesh out their "realities". Why have 3 websites when you can have 12?

Maybe in your ARG there is a corrupt law firm. You will create a website for it just like usual. You have control to do anything with it that you wish, just like usual. Now, however, you could use ARGLawyers as a place that one of your characters came from or a place from which someone is investigating Satan, Beelzebub, and Bush. By adding a layer that usually doesn't exist, you have increased your options by choosing to use ARGLawyers not limited them.

The level of use would be dictated by the PMs needs and willingness to follow whatever restrictions are inherent to the systems. At this point there is no clearcut idea of what these uses or systems could be.

danashulps wrote:
Plus, if, as a player, I knew that ARGs would frequently be using this ARGversity as an element of their game, I know I would be checking frequently to see if there were any changes. If a new character suddenly appears in the yearbook from two decades ago, well, I'd know something was up.


Assuming that these sites were launched, I would've had to enlist a large amount of help. This would have to be a larger group and timeframe than any PM could dedicate to the creation of one single asset or site. Assume again that I retained the interest of a majority of these people.

After the sites went up (and where applicable) there would be a slow but continuous increase to their content. As an example, ARGUniveristy could initially have 100 profiles and, let's say, 3-5 new profiles per week, eventually having thousands of them. Only one of these new profiles may actually relate to an ARG but how would the player be able to distinguish it from the others?

Barriers to Discussion

FLmutant wrote:
The other aside that occured to me that this isn't a great way of doing something for the first time: if I gave you a list of the things I want to do that have challenges associated them, I could unintentionally tip my hat to what I have planned.


The title of this post: Websites (or website features) that PMs wish existed but have no interest in doing themselves.

Do you wish to create ARGs or try to motivate 100+ people to help create a large network of sites and resources that would fit into the layer which I refered to as the rolep.layer? If the former, share what ideas would fit into the latter that you don't see yourself ever doing. If the latter, let's get together to discuss it. Maybe we can make each others heads spontaneously, simultaneously, explode.

FLmutant wrote:
Once it becomes a bit more formulaic it is a bit easier to talk about what was rough about something.


I do appreciate your ideas and comments and don't feel that you've been negative in the slightest. In addition to your stated concerns it also gives me the opportunity to see the thought process that could be behind resistance to these concepts. Please also take no offense to the following.

It is obviously not your intent yet I translate the above comment as-

Quote:
Once someone attempts it and either succeeds or fails based on their merits and level of community support we can then mimic their success or dissect their carcass.


This has been true of almost everything that has ever come to pass. I don't believe, however, that most of these things have ever had the opportunity for all sides to take part in their molding as the ARG medium surely does.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:56 pm
Last edited by AngriBuddhist on Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.
danashulps wrote:
I think a news source would be a good idea on all sides.


I like the idea as well. Not simply for dropping a trailhead or posting news on the front page either.

I was discussing this idea with someone else. He said that he had wished he could have had a in-game "news site" for one of his ARGs. Unfortunately he didn't have the resources to do it himself and be realistic. What he wanted was to be able to backdate an article to 1987. The players would have to actually go through a number of stories to research something that had happened in the past.

Of course this site would have a Front page that included news stories and editorials yet it could go deeper than that. If you had a large enough group of people working on this, you could have an extensive archive full of real and fictional stories. What if a PM could post and backdate a news story from 1987 on what appeared to be a legitimate news site? What could be done with that option?

The major problem with the "news site" idea-

konamouse wrote:
The key here is control of access for posting, and a player recognized method to distinguish IG from gamejack (since that is becoming more persuasive as the genre has expanded). So you really have to come back to PM controlled resources that can provide direct (or indirect) links to the legitimate sites (any new found site linking back to the original is not necessarily proof of co-existence unless the original IG site publically acknowledges it or there is a unique tag/identifier - like creation prior to game start noted in the Whois).




I would be very interested in hearing ideas on how to get around this.


FLmutant wrote:
AngriBuddhist wrote:
This concept although not fleshed out could open new doors. With a public in-game site, could a player create an in-game persona for themselves that they could carry from sci-fi ARG to sci-fi ARG? Would anyone be interested in doing so?


Actually, I'd point out that isn't "new doors" -- that's moving one core audience from ARG to ARG. How many ARGs can people play at once? The challenge for PMs in outreach and recruitment is only in small part about reaching the UF crowd. The real challenge is how do increase the size of that community as an aftermath of your ARG by reaching people who wouldn't have signed up in your system already. That doesn't reduce the value of the scratch you are describing, just which itch it actually scratches.


The "in-game websites" and "rolep.layer" concepts that I'm suggesting are not aimed strictly at the PMs. They could offer a resource-free service to them that also benefits the players.

The "new doors" in that example were what it might offer the player. Allowing them an enviroment separate from Unfiction where they might create a persona to roleplay in your games does have a value. I admit that this is more of a "perceived value", however, isn't or shouldn't that be a priority for the ARG development community? Increasing the scope and value (real as well as perceived) of the ARG medium in the eyes of it's current and future audience?

Beyond Unfiction you are still recruiting players from a very small group. Those that could receive entertainment from spending a large amount of time on forums discussing a game that they are not actually playing at the moment. Or that they actually play for even a fraction of the time that they spend discussing it. You have to find other forum communities, convince them with a rabbithole to devote a great deal of time learning a new set of rules, so they can do exactly what they had been doing previously- posting in forums. Your attempts to increase the size of this community need to start by widening the scope of the activities and the enviroment that a player interacts with. Only then will ARGs be capable of attracting players from beyond this demographic.

Constructive Criticism is always welcome.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:43 am
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FLmutant
Decorated


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL
AngriBuddhist wrote:
With this group (10, 100, 500??) of sites you could choose how you would use them. What I assume is that most willing PMs would use them to suppliment and flesh out their "realities". Why have 3 websites when you can have 12?


I rarely ever look at ARG development that way, Angri. I think about the story that I want to tell, and the characters flow from that, and from that flow the websites and companies and whatnot. Inside of that, I'd want to have complete control over the backstory: that is the story, every tiny nuance and wrinkle of it. This is a good example of what I wouldn't want to have to deal with:

AngriBuddhist wrote:
Maybe in your ARG there is a corrupt law firm. You will create a website for it just like usual. You have control to do anything with it that you wish, just like usual. Now, however, you could use ARGLawyers as a place that one of your characters came from or a place from which someone is investigating Satan, Beelzebub, and Bush. By adding a layer that usually doesn't exist, you have increased your options by choosing to use ARGLawyers not limited them.


No offense, but that is a circular argument, especially if the "increased options" are something that I have to live with the last PM's choices, like the last puppetmaster had them investigating "Satan, Beelzebub and Bush". That wouldn't necessarily be a wrinkle of story I'd want to bring into my story if I was doing humor ARG -- I can imagine situations where I'd say, "Heck, if only Konamouse hadn't used the ARGLawyers to tell the story that Beelzebub is Bush's father, that would have been a fun character to use." The more history cemented on each character, the more limiting (not the less limiting) those characters become for later PMs who "check them out." You start to need clearer "Universe Guides" to describe that, as an episode writer, you can't have Scully reveal she is a man and Mulder reveal that he is gay and the two quit their FBI jobs and go running off to Alaska.

AngriBuddhist wrote:

It is obviously not your intent yet I translate the above comment as-

Once someone attempts it and either succeeds or fails based on their merits and level of community support we can then mimic their success or dissect their carcass.


Of course not, Angri. In fact, that would be exactly the oppositive of what I'm saying. Look at my quote again:

FLMutant wrote:
The other aside that occured to me that this isn't a great way of doing something for the first time: if I gave you a list of the things I want to do that have challenges associated them, I could unintentionally tip my hat to what I have planned [...] Once it becomes a bit more formulaic it is a bit easier to talk about what was rough about something.


So let me describe it again: I'm rarely interested in duplicating something that has already been done. In fact, I take that to such a fault that I'm rarely interested in duplicating what I myself have already done. So the "dissect their carcass"? That I'm ALWAYS down with. Love me some good caracass dissection, bring on the meta! Mimicry? Not so interested. Too many new ideas floating around and I was an ADHD child. Twisted Evil

I'm not making a statement about the genre, mind you, just about my own approach to ARG design. So rather than "playing it safe" I'm at the exact opposite end of your translation -- I help produce new corpses and encourage their dissection Smile

I think the other confusor is sometimes we are talking about "narrative features" (like the law firm) and sometimes we are talking about "functionality" (like the "cheap domain registrar" which has no narrative layer). My understanding from your subject line that you quoted was that this thread was in the world of functionality, but it seems that the "websites (or website features) that PMs wish existed" that you wish to discuss are ones that are a narrative feature, sometimes without a functional layer?

So this above quote of mine is about the functional layer, and I have the added difficulty of having to adhere to the "you shall not talk about your games in progress". If one were to take a look, though, at the functional elements in Eldritch Errors, you'd see that fall roughly into two categories: the routine (blog, wiki, AIM, CLs, etc.) and the unique (MUD, malware, server intrusions, etc.) There are tons of solutions out there for the routine, but the unique are so unique they aren't worth turning into "so that anyone could do the same yet." Trust me, send one victim into the water first to report how the sharks are -- in Florida, we like to use TOURISTS for that! Smile

If I had said "Yeah, one of my needs would be to have a network of foreign language translators especially for those languages that don't have online translation tools" as a need before I had launched Eldritch, it would given away something pretty critical about the gameplay. Which was what my pink elephant example was about (until Kona actually FOUND a solution to the problem and my abstract example concrete -- Kona, just for you, I'm going to pump the bizarrity of my future theoretical examples Twisted Evil )

Conversely, don't take any of this as a sign that I don't drool over a clever widget and start thinking about how I could use it to storytell. You should see some of the wonderful gizmos Lance Weiler has up his sleeve for dealing with telephones: heck yeah, I'd like to get a taste of that into one of my stories one day! What makes Lance's tech interesting to me, though, is that it represents 7+ years of Lance improving on the set of ideas. That doesn't mean I get to "mimic his success and dissect his carcass" ... it means instead of having a pocket knife he's improved it to a multi-tool, which makes it even more attractive to have in your pocket in the wilderness, because you might not need a beaver-pelter-knife right now but your guide keeps telling you he put it in the multitool for a reason and smiles at you knowingly.

Kona, finding a beaver-pelter-knife will be unimpressive. You have to find a beaver-pelter-knife-that-is-part-of-a-pocket-sized-multi-tool. I bet it is made in Canada.

Jumping into your "new doors" stuff, which got taken a bit out of context (I interepreted your use as meaning "bring new players" where you meant it as "prodive new potentials" I guess.)

AngiBuddhist wrote:
Allowing them an enviroment separate from Unfiction where they might create a persona to roleplay in your games does have a value. I admit that this is more of a "perceived value", however, isn't or shouldn't that be a priority for the ARG development community?


Angri, I think that is so important, I tend to provide that space in-game with the characters. It is one of the few things I repeat almost every single time. Granted, that's not a "hard roleplay" solution ... most people end up playing a role that is some near-to-them character. As a PM, I'm not allowed to stick my fingers into Unfiction but, to be honest, I use that same perspective with any "outside of my story" website -- so if I want my fingers in it to help shape the dynamic, I tend to do it in-game. So that I can participate in it too.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
Beyond Unfiction you are still recruiting players from a very small group. Those that could receive entertainment from spending a large amount of time on forums discussing a game that they are not actually playing at the moment. Or that they actually play for even a fraction of the time that they spend discussing it. You have to find other forum communities, convince them with a rabbithole to devote a great deal of time learning a new set of rules, so they can do exactly what they had been doing previously- posting in forums.


Angri, this is where you and I just have a different perspective about the genre. I do not believe that the normative experience of "experiencing an ARG" has to include "spending a large amount of time on forums discussing a game that they are not actually playing at the moment". I think that experience, this experience, Unfiction, is closer to the "ultra-fan" experience in other media. That is an important part of the media experience, because it represents the "deep end of the narrative pool". When we're actively promoting an ARG with a media budget, that's about 4% of the userbase of the experience, but they are responsible for about 20% of the total media consumption (whether you are looking at "user minutes" or "pages read" or "sessions per month".) If you stop spending media money, those percentages balloon (but only because the size of the overall pies went down.)

Guess: is your quote an accurate description of how YOU play ARGs and what YOUR perception of the ARG experience is?

AngriBuddhist wrote:
Your attempts to increase the size of this community need to start by widening the scope of the activities and the enviroment that a player interacts with. Only then will ARGs be capable of attracting players from beyond this demographic.


Again, we have a deep perceptual difference here, Angri. I don't think of the "existing ARG uber-fans" as being a demographic. Unfiction, for example, is really a hodge-podge of fans from different experiences, and those fans are typically looking at every other work in the genre through the lens of "is this like what I was a fan of?" That is a pretty remarkable thing, not something you see in many genres at all. But there is nothing homogenous about Unfiction beyond "tends to be an active user of the Internet". And you never see "all" of Unfiction do any one thing: there's always multiple communities going on at the same time with their own tempos.

And most "large" games don't look at UF as a sufficiently large audience to justify the kinds of budgets that get spent. So I like to think we put most of our energy into recruiting new audiences, and the fact that some people from Unfiction comes along is a plus. Hopefully, in return, we leave Unfiction a little bigger than it was before.

Which calls for a foily shout-out: Foily!

So it is axiomatic to say "to widen the scope of the players you must widen the scope of the offerings". It also doesn't advance the discussion any. If anything, that reinforces the importance of novelty in the form -- even you seem to be arguing that without novelty (the widening of the offerings) you won't expand the player base. The difference is you see your idea as Novelty with a capital N -- something that will "increase the number of options" for everyone. My argument is that anything you make is still a subset of the number of options The Whole Internet and World provide, a subset of the novelty possible.

Which means you need to be able to articulate what your desired subset specializes in, because that subset will never be as good at scratching all itches as the broader set of scratching techniques. So it is perfectly acceptible to go, "and this is intended for grassroots PMs to allow quick development routes for smaller projects". A narrowing choice of what kinds of itches you want it to scratch let it focus on scratching those really well.

And, remember, this is just one developer's perspective and probably not one of the kind of developers you had in your mind when you started this thread.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:41 am
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AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.

 		First, let me point out that it's twice now that you have suggested that I wouldn't want to hear your opinions of my opinions. Quite frankly I know nothing about you other than what your statements here tell me. Even so, you seem to be a fine example of someone who I would need to talk to if I were to take these concepts and attempt to create them.

Although I question whether this conversation's getting deeper or if I'm getting in further over my head, I feel as if my lack of precise communication is causing more disagreement than my opinions. This of course may be chalked off to the high value that I place on my opinions. Wink

FLmutant wrote:
I think the other confusor is sometimes we are talking about "narrative features" (like the law firm) and sometimes we are talking about "functionality" (like the "cheap domain registrar" which has no narrative layer). My understanding from your subject line that you quoted was that this thread was in the world of functionality, but it seems that the "websites (or website features) that PMs wish existed" that you wish to discuss are ones that are a narrative feature, sometimes without a functional layer?


Odd, I've felt as if I have been following the flow of the conversation. As a number of others have repeatedly mentioned the ARGLawyers and University ideas, I have focused on them as a means to continue the conversation. The "news story" website idea that I returned to in my last post would be a PM tool and have no actually narrative. Yet, players would benifit from it the same way as with the other site ideas. Interaction with activities and enviroments that most non-financed development teams (and even some who are) could never achieve. To create a "news site" with real depth (read: vast backdated archive) a very large number of people would have to expend a great deal of time.

Prior to beginning this thread, I had seen discussion of a "news site". redct even has a prototype of a "news site" working yet konamouse and others brought up the very real problem associated with this idea (see one of my last posts). Do you have any suggetions on how to get around this?

FLmutant wrote:
AngriBuddhist wrote:
With this group (10, 100, 500??) of sites you could choose how you would use them. What I assume is that most willing PMs would use them to suppliment and flesh out their "realities". Why have 3 websites when you can have 12?


I rarely ever look at ARG development that way, Angri. I think about the story that I want to tell, and the characters flow from that, and from that flow the websites and companies and whatnot.


Take a step further back. When you are developing a story for an ARG you are aware of the vehicle you will use for it's delivery. And even if you haven't decided what resources you will use you do know what resources are available. I find it hard to fathom that, even if unwillingly, your stories are not affected by what you currently believe to be possible (even if by your own devising). Or are you writing stories and then deciding if they are ARGs, movies, or novels on an individual basis? Shocked

FLmutant wrote:
Inside of that, I'd want to have complete control over the backstory: that is the story, every tiny nuance and wrinkle of it. This is a good example of what I wouldn't want to have to deal with:

AngriBuddhist wrote:
Maybe in your ARG there is a corrupt law firm. You will create a website for it just like usual. You have control to do anything with it that you wish, just like usual. Now, however, you could use ARGLawyers as a place that one of your characters came from or a place from which someone is investigating Satan, Beelzebub, and Bush. By adding a layer that usually doesn't exist, you have increased your options by choosing to use ARGLawyers not limited them.


No offense, but that is a circular argument, especially if the "increased options" are something that I have to live with the last PM's choices, like the last puppetmaster had them investigating "Satan, Beelzebub and Bush". That wouldn't necessarily be a wrinkle of story I'd want to bring into my story if I was doing humor ARG -- I can imagine situations where I'd say, "Heck, if only Konamouse hadn't used the ARGLawyers to tell the story that Beelzebub is Bush's father, that would have been a fun character to use." The more history cemented on each character, the more limiting (not the less limiting) those characters become for later PMs who "check them out."


I see your point. Let me rephrase this same example in an attempt to alter your view or lessen your objections. Although my last example did not include an actual ARGLawyer being the investigator, your reply did so, this one will.

ARGLawyers exists as an attempt to be an "in-game" website for multiple ARGs. They have a backstory that is as detailed as a law firm could realistically have. The site and employees (both of which we will call assests) of the firm can be used by PMs if they wish. For what purpose? The widening of their ARG's scope while conserving resources. By scope I mean "amount of content" or "storytelling options" or "layers" or whatever defination tells you that they couldn't have included it with their budget.

PM team #1 creates the assets of their ARG. One of them is the evil law firm Satan, Beelzebub, and Bush. Somewhere in the story, the players must learn some inside info about them. This is a small part of the overall story that would necessitate the creation of a believable website, characters and backstory. They could creat a MySpace or two or...

PM team #1 decides to use ARGLawyers and their character Jack to investigate Satan, Beelzebub, and Bush. Once Jack uncovers the truth, that Beelzebub is Bush's father, Satan kills and eats him. Or now with what Jack knows he is too frightened to discuss it with anyone. Or now with what Jack has expierenced he can never go back to his former life of corporate ladder climbing/backstabbing. New lawyers can always be hired/created.

In the ARGLawyers canon, Jack was an employee who didn't show up for work one day. The police came by and asked some questions. Now, only the lady who comes to water the plants remembers him as he reminded her of someone. Or Jack came back to work after a mental breakdown and he seems more withdrawn and less motivated than before.

PM team #2 decides to use ARGLawyers.

As PM team #2 has no rights to any of PM team #1's assets, the events surrounding S,S,&B and ARGLawyers have no bearing whatsoever on PM team #2's ARG.

FLMutant wrote:
I'm not making a statement about the genre, mind you, just about my own approach to ARG design. So rather than "playing it safe" I'm at the exact opposite end of your translation -- I help produce new corpses and encourage their dissection Smile


As related to the topic of creativity, I believe that's the most refreshing thing I've ever heard. Very Happy

FLMutant wrote:
AngriBuddhist wrote:
Your attempts to increase the size of this community need to start by widening the scope of the activities and the enviroment that a player interacts with. Only then will ARGs be capable of attracting players from beyond this demographic.


Again, we have a deep perceptual difference here, Angri. I don't think of the "existing ARG uber-fans" as being a demographic. [...] But there is nothing homogenous about Unfiction beyond "tends to be an active user of the Internet".


I defined "demographic" as "Those that could receive entertainment from spending a large amount of time on forums discussing a game that they are not actually playing at the moment." My point there was that beyond the time that the current interaction that a PM allows takes, many players including myself spend the majority of our time discussing the ARG. By ARG defination that may still be called "playing" yet many are turned off by such an experience. However, I see that your defination of "demographic" (tends to be an active user of the Internet) does make much more sense than mine even as I view it as overly optimistic. Razz

FLMutant wrote:
And most "large" games don't look at UF as a sufficiently large audience to justify the kinds of budgets that get spent.


and then...

FLMutant wrote:
And, remember, this is just one developer's perspective and probably not one of the kind of developers you had in your mind when you started this thread.


By these statements can I assume that you are a developer who usually works on "large" games with "large" budgets?

FLMutant wrote:
So it is axiomatic to say "to widen the scope of the players you must widen the scope of the offerings". It also doesn't advance the discussion any. If anything, that reinforces the importance of novelty in the form -- even you seem to be arguing that without novelty (the widening of the offerings) you won't expand the player base. The difference is you see your idea as Novelty with a capital N -- something that will "increase the number of options" for everyone. My argument is that anything you make is still a subset of the number of options The Whole Internet and World provide, a subset of the novelty possible.

Which means you need to be able to articulate what your desired subset specializes in, because that subset will never be as good at scratching all itches as the broader set of scratching techniques. So it is perfectly acceptible to go, "and this is intended for grassroots PMs to allow quick development routes for smaller projects". A narrowing choice of what kinds of itches you want it to scratch let it focus on scratching those really well.


Thank You. I wish I had understood it the first time you said it.

Questions-

1.) Even if my ideas are sound (if not well articulated or fleshed out), how am I to know their true potential or restrictions unless I discuss them here?

2.) Do you believe that any of these rough ideas (minus the kinks) could be useful to grassroots PMs? Please, don't try to spare my feellings.

3.) If I had been born a woman, would you be the father of my children?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:49 am
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tinag222
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Since I'm not a PM and had at least commented on what I'd want if I was, I would like to submit the following from the standpoint of the player - which if more players would do, it could go a long way in helping PMs figure out what you need and want and can come up with as is being discussed in this thread in particular.

These are not so much here as a request, or "ideas" for you to be flamed, shot down, or all that. I'm presenting it in a slightly different context, not for feedback but for your observation on the other side of the fence. Whether they serve as "good" ideas or "bad" ones, feasible or not isn't the point. Point is from the POV of the player inside this world at all and things you guys as PMs may have forgotten once you've advanced from "noob" and "clueless" stages.

Such as on UF, and even I got irritated with it my first times here and spent a lot more time lurking than jumping in for this reason. It's not a shot at UF at all, it's an example of the above paragraph - the people who've been around awhile see the same questions over and over being asked on the board for any given topic, and without fail, a group of people will get irritated and frustrated and start in with the sometimes snippy or outright rude "use the search" or "we did this already, god read the thread first" etc.

What these guys are doing is the above: and instead of considering first that this isn't one person asking the same thing over and over, which would make us all irritated to the point we sniped off at them, it's a LOT of people asking the same question...and that is something PMs (and UF) should not overlook as it's telling you something important about how you've got your place set up. Something is not available in an obvious fashion to those who don't know there would be to begin with...that's why they're not reading 60 page threads, and why they're not looking at rules before posting a game, and why they PM in a thread....so UF should not be getting irritated at the majority of new people (i.e. plural here) and look instead at why they are not being better served to begin with. It's not the newbie's fault...


I didn't read a lot of threads unless something specific interested me, so I as a newbie would have no prior awareness this topic has been discussed in 12 other threads...but once I learned this, then I've moved passed that "clueless" stage and forgot about it as I moved on with things. And then I caught myself sniping at reading the same posts over and over again and hollering "search! read!" when it occurred to me that from an advanced level, I'm seeing the same post and forgetting it's different people asking the same question...and they are for a good reason. The answers are not being provided clearly enough a first time visitor is apt to find it immediately. UF being a forum of many topics would have a bigger obstacle to being able to fix that.


So keeping this wall of experience in mind that separates new people from experienced ones, from a player standpoint especially new to ARG there is zero doorway for them into ARG land unless a fluke of nature coincidence jumps in their laps. Many people may have stubmbled over curious trails but will dismiss them for the fact they don't know it's a trail or what a trail even is. And by the time new people figure that out on their own, UFers have just about wrapped the game ;-p But let a newcomer suggest a clue they just recognized and they do inevitably have the sniping reaction that it's been discussed a million times, go search, read, etc. It's not really fair to new ones and it is a turn off and causes barriers. I know UF has this website attached but whoever runs that could sorely stand to not only update it but organize it far better than it is. I also seriously urge you guys to follow through on the player guides and pm guides and get those worked up more concisely as guides instead of widely spread out articles.

Or give me permission and I will do the hard stuff and collect them as articles, organize them and submit them to LULU and make guide you all can sell on here - which if not me, someone should consider this. I'd have bought up every one of them if they are actual guides that instruct, clearly, what puzzles are used, how to construct them, what tools should be considered in solving them, the ways and means used in detail on solving them, how to create clues, what to do with them, where to place them in the context of a story...even using an actual game in the guides that readers can work out as practice. It sorely needs to be done.

Then there's the sage advice about forming a team and or playing args before trying to make one. People are not listening to that, as much as it's good advice....so why not be unconventional and make a guide for that group who's determined to jump in and learn as he goes? Lots of people learn better that way but they don't have resources available, or can't get a team for whatever reason, but do have good ideas and can't do much with them. ARG should never become an elitist game for the experienced only.

Most of you guys, myself included, are already used to ARG consisting of many character and websites and such, and are presuming it cannot be good unless it has these things. But for the above group - it's entirely reasonable and possible that one person can create a very compelling game with one website, one character, and with interaction...so why not just help facilitate that with guides that they could use?

Please take that as constructive and not a flame. Remember when you were new and clueless....and you asked these questions and had these same issues...

What about deaddrop? Is that even active or is it an archive? That needs to be better expressed. I've read a lot on there over the last year or so and some articles seem so immediate and then offhand I'll see it was dated 4 years ago and is completely useless now or out of date - which is why I ask about it being just an archive.


So for newbies and the clueless - those who have only modestly become aware of the genre itself and are beginning to look deeper, this group is being ignored like mad. They should not be required to sift through 100 pages on a forum with a million topics to get a clear idea what's going on. And yes I know there is wiki but the only reason on this planet I found that out was last year when I watched The Game again on showtime and was wondering who a character was, and found the wiki on the game...and buried in all that was a simple link to alternate reality game which led to the wiki. Otherwise I'd probably have never heard of it.

Now for the games themselves for this group. Newbies and clueless have no idea how to find these games...period. The only real source is UF itself, and ARGN. But for the new player, these games are active, already started, too far along for anyone to really jump into. Or they end up doing what I've done a few times not knowing better, and getting caught up in nothing more than the "is this a game vs not one" phase, and unfortunately ends up being "not one" so never played any game at all.

I would really humbly like to request some form of an OOG or meta master list for this group that is probably going to be unconventional in terms of locating games, but there's no rule it can't be to my knowledge (and no I'm not searching.) It doesn't even have to be elaborate in presentation. A simple website with 4 categories only and no other content - Launching Active Finished Archived. With a list of games for each one, in particular the Launching.

PMs could submit their rabbit holes or trailheads or whatever to this site and be done with it. It's in the list and people can pull this up and browse them and find one that's interesting to them...or not. PMs or whoever does the site could make their ad graphics and submit it to UF and ARGN and it can be provided as a *resource* for those who are not across the experienced line to know or even have it occur to them to notice an ad in google or a cryptic link on someone's blog. Experienced players know to look for this stuff. The rest of us do not. It could also serve to clear up the "is this anything" issue. If it's on the list, yes, it's something...it's launching, or it's active, or it's finished so don't jump in...

PM don't have to change anything else about their games or the ARG genre - but I am seriously suggesting adding something that is not cryptic, that is simple and easily available to the group that is being left out because of lack of experience. Jumping in on a lunch game helps the PMs too if it's meta and a resource, just list it and then it can have a far better shot of being found, the wait time will be greatly reduced for people to stumble over it.

And lastly, if this has been suggested before, instead of flaming it or knocking it, please ask yourself *why* it's asked at all...

Thanks!

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:32 am
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Well, if it would mean those two finally hooked up and got it on then I'd totally have accepted that...jeez, there was way too much sexual tension in that series.


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and on here too it looks like ;-p

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:38 am
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tinag222
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After snacking on a pork chop at 2am and reading through this thread and my last one (not the silly one), I had this occur and wanted to actually suggest it, so yeah this one's up for flaming or feedback - but still please consider the option.

For the record, I officially vote konamouse as the VOR of UF. Kona reminds me of a dear friend I had years ago...and no matter what we were doing, I'd end up getting all excited about something and hyper and wanting to run off the deep end all gushy and into it...and my friend would quite reasonably provide an alternative, more grounded approach.

GOD that would irritate the shit out of me so many times....like the bucket of water on enthusiasm...until I recognized he wasn't being pessimistic, he was actually grounded and very reasonable. I've seen this constantly from kona on here. Others seemed to be trying to be the voice of reason but it's mostly negative and pessimistic, or just raining on things because they didn't like to think too hard. Kona, however, comes in and simply suggests something quite sane and reasonable but that is outside all the hype. I find myself grinning because...well yeah. Because of it, I've been finding myself holding back from making an opinion until I hear what kona's take on it is and that provides for me a great balance which is highly appreciated.

And has nothing at all whatsoever to do with why I started this post. Sorry. I got distracted on that tangent. On with it.


ONE MAN BAND

is the idea here and a little more expansion on what I mentioned above about the ones who haven't played any arg but are determined to create one anyway, with or without a team. I totally understand the rationale for those suggesting they play first then create....I also don't personally subscribe to it as a "golden rule" because I feel that it takes away from a very real group of people who work better on their own - which I fully believe those individuals are. Some work well with teams. Some can do both, but there are some who want to do it all themselves, who like doing it all themselves, who are good at doing it all themselves. (this group is also referred to as "control freaks!") but adding to that, this same group is known for being completely inexperienced the first time and that's not a problem for them - that's a downside they consider and have no problem managing.

So I consider how to serve those people in this genre. What about adding a sub category for this group - the one man shows. They are not likely to be all that elaborate, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be fun and enjoyable. There was a team behind the "one woman show" Online Caroline. I signed up for that and finally had to opt out because she spammed me and the emails made her someone I couldn't really deal with in real life. I found her inept and neurotic and was kinda amused when the associates or whoever broke in her house and quite frankly wouldn't have blamed her boyfriend for cheating on her. Point is, a team is behind that but it sucked in my opinion.

Other side: I had gained a bit of an audience for one of my sites awhile back and decided to just one woman show myself. I made up a story and worked it out and just casually added it, but also had the control to seed the site with "backdated" information that people could find. It was a simple period for me I anticipated not being online as much so...I set up a "missing person" storyline and had a friend of mine announce it, and periodically post updates. What I thought would be a disaster turned out to add to the fun - I moved shortly after this so was actually offline for a month or so and no updates happened. That period of time I got a buttload of email from people suddenly wondering now if this was real and something happened to me. I milked it a little but utimately was "found" and it caused no trauma for anyone. As a standalone style game for something on here, I'd never submit it because of the backstory frame I wasn't going to do.

Just an illustration that it's feasible to do.

A category for those in this group who are willing to do it anyway solo would help newcomers get in the business and serve them in the long run with feedback - people will either play it or they won't, so he's got a means of evaluating how he presented it. He's got feedback on the content, so he can evaluate his weak/strong points or even simple storytelling. If he manages to provide a good game for people, then he'd automatically have earned a little recognition and be more likely to have others join up if he broadens his scope for a new one. If his sucks, he can actually learn from it, or at worst, discover this isn't for him - or narrow the scope to find out what he's better at and be a resource for others.

If there is a known category provded where everyone recognizes this is a one man show game, then it will be approached this way and adjusts the scope of the players who will focus on the content and follow - plus the odds of a gamejack are zero. If we had something for this group it would help a lot of people get rolling and could even be listed as another category in that above mentioned requested source of games launching.

LAUNCHING:

ONE MAN SHOW GAMES....
GRASSROOTS...
COMMERCIAL...

ACTIVE:

ditto, etc.

I would like to see these guys not discounted so easily because they won't go play first or don't form a team. Lots of creative people out there and one benefit or advantage to the player would be a far more focused story and momentum. One man show can provide and run more than one site (I know this, I have 6 - actually 11 but 6 active! heh). One man could play more than one character, he could be studied enough to change their personalities and styles...and would have just enough players to keep managable. If a one man show game suddenly exploded with amazing popularity and a zillion people showed up and media got wind of it, OMS could probably have grounds for requesting help if he needed it - with instant "credibility" on his side.

The buzzword in this thread was thinking outside the box and not rejecting stuff on grounds that it's not established rules or "the norm" and these couple things qualify I think...and 1. opens the door to a couple more groups to be involved, and - or which leads to 2. expands the playerbase and the overall public awareness.

kk...

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:32 am
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AngriBuddhist
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@tinag222

To paraphrase-

PMs are not the only ones who need resources. Unfiction players (particularly new ones) need them as well since the more experienced players are somewhat jaded and are not supporting them.

You are saying that "widening the scope" of ARGs may be secondary to removing the "barriers of entry".

Your points-

1.) The Forum Guidlines, Player Help and Quick Start Guide are either not placed well, unorganized or lacking in what a player actually needs.

2.) You are suggesting a Player Guide that actually has example clues (and how to recognize them), puzzles (and how to solve them), and guidelines on how to interact with in-game characters and fellow players.

3.) There needs to be an active list showing the status of all current games. This would allow all players to easily organize their time so as to find an ARG at it's beginning.

Is this correct?

If so, I find it to be a very interesting point of view. However, wouldn't it be served best by being in the Player Help section? These points would garnish more attention in that forum.

Your final point-

4.) Some people are attempting to create ARGs even though they don't know what they're doing. You suggest a PM Guide that gives a step by step walkthrough.

Well, this forum is the PM Guide. It's been here for 5 years and isn't what you are suggesting. Although I've never been a PM, I would guess that one of the reasons it doesn't exist is "time". As a PM, would you rather be spending your time creating a new reality/story/game or creating a technical manual?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:03 am
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konamouse
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 		Embarassed thanks tinag222

I'd like to think that real uF veterans are calm & helpful in redirecting the n00bs to proper threads and posting etiquette. It's the overeager new folks who get a bit "jeesh" in some of the newly populated topics of discussion where there is much more NOISE than substance - because there isn't a 'game' afoot - it's marketing that leaves way too much speculation and gets folks way off on tangets. But I digress into a totally different topic than THIS thread so let me drag myself back to some things you asked about.


Taking all the various resources for ARGs/CF and putting them in one place?
"Through the Rabbit Hole" by Dave Szulborski - a great beginners guide to the world of ARG.

"This Is Not A Game"
Great introduction to the world of Immersive Gaming.

"Beyond Reality: A Guide to Alternate Reality Gaming by John Gosney is another resource.

But, given the changing landscape of the Internet and capabilities for new functionalities within and without the technology landscape and real world interactions, these all quickly become obsolete if they are not updated at least every two years.

I believe that imbri is one of the leads in maintaining a very functional wikipedia entry here. And she has a great quick-start guide.

And uF's old tutorial is here.

Others are out there on both uF and ARGN sites. I think that there is a project to create a sort of IMDB for ARGs but it's still in the infancy stage.

The hard part about a site for LAUNCHING, ACTIVE, etc - well, we already have that in here with NEWS & RUMORS, POTENTIALS, etc. We don't always know what is going to be an ARG/CF or what is a SPAM or one-time viral marketing/extended experience offering. PMs are allowed to post their trailhead in N&R (once) or send the rabbithole information to Space for him to post it. And they can call into the ARGN tip line as well. AngriB wants another mode of launch. And FLmutant (rightly so) wants a means to get more involvement/audience OUTSIDE of uF. Cause when stuff gets started in here, there is sometimes a pack of hungry young wolves (and you'll notice it isn't the long-time members who are doing that) tearing things apart deeper than the original design, and running after those red fish to the ends of the internet instead of just sitting back and smoking that cigar (cause sometimes, that is all it really is suppose to be).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:36 am
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 		Angri, wasn't trying to imply that you didn't want to hear my opinion, only that I might not be the main target of who you're hoping it will help.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
Or are you writing stories and then deciding if they are ARGs, movies, or novels on an individual basis?


Frequently, yeah. Or more accurate would be "we're writing stories and then deciding if ARGs, movies, novels, and other stuff are PART of the way we tell it." Our "big ARGs" tend to also have a client behind them funding them with their own ideas about how it should help sell televisions are cars or something Smile You'll find there are a gaggle of people hanging out here for which the phrases "movie" or "novel" or "television show" aren't abstract choices.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
By these statements can I assume that you are a developer who usually works on "large" games with "large" budgets?


Fair enough, sorry if I didn't introduce myself properly. My past ARGs are Legends of the Sacred Urns, Art of the Heist, Who is Benjamin Stove and now we're running Eldritch Errors. The budgets for those range from five-digit to seven-digit figures. The largest of those, AOTH, had over 300 people working on it at the same at its peak (if you count everyone from actors to designers to production planners.) From my perspective, I'd only describe one of the above as "large budget" (and try to convince you that "medium budget" describes the others.) Worth saying, though, that none of these budgets have ever been so huge that we didn't have to weigh cost against options.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
By scope I mean "amount of content" or "storytelling options" or "layers" or whatever defination tells you that they couldn't have included it with their budget.


Totally get what you are trying to communicate now. Let me narrow my observation to fit. Some aspects of production, like writing and designing and what not, are the kinds of budget items where "elbow grease" can be used to replace "money": independents RELY upon those kinds of elements to make things look like a million dollars that didn't "cost anything" (in terms of writing a check.) There are other areas where elbow grease is a poorer substitute, such as the postage on mailing packages or the bandwidth of a web host: you could think of those things as "functional minimum budgets" to pull something off.

So my gut if we're thinking about the grassroots PM brigade is that they need #1 help building out teams so they aren't trying to do it all themselves and #2 solutions that help stretch the "functional minimum budgets" further.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
1.) Even if my ideas are sound (if not well articulated or fleshed out), how am I to know their true potential or restrictions unless I discuss them here?


Discuss away, Angri! We wouldn't be in here participating in the thread if we wanted you to not discuss this stuff Smile

AngriBuddhist wrote:
2.) Do you believe that any of these rough ideas (minus the kinks) could be useful to grassroots PMs? Please, don't try to spare my feellings.


I'd certainly think so, the devil is in both the details and in getting enough people to get involved. My hope for you, though, would be that the first elements you focus on be the ones that have the most universal appeal -- it would be challenging to spending time building out those options only to find a low adoption among the grassroots PMs. I'm not sure if I've seen the "killer apps" boil up from this thread, but I'm sure there is one there.

AngriBuddhist wrote:
3.) If I had been born a woman, would you be the father of my children?


Yes. But they would sadly be sterile mules instead of beautiful horses or sturdy donkeys.

tinag222, you had some really swell thoughts in your email. Idea Pork chops = brain food? Some of this an aside from Angri's question, but this is meta and I'm on a roll:

tinag222 wrote:
Most of you guys, myself included, are already used to ARG consisting of many character and websites and such, and are presuming it cannot be good unless it has these things. But for the above group - it's entirely reasonable and possible that one person can create a very compelling game with one website, one character, and with interaction...so why not just help facilitate that with guides that they could use?


I think that is really part of the area that grassroots PMs could be exploring: smaller stories. One character might be an awful small cast, what an interesting creative choice to try to make work.

tinag222 wrote:
PM don't have to change anything else about their games or the ARG genre - but I am seriously suggesting adding something that is not cryptic, that is simple and easily available to the group that is being left out because of lack of experience. Jumping in on a lunch game helps the PMs too if it's meta and a resource, just list it and then it can have a far better shot of being found, the wait time will be greatly reduced for people to stumble over it.

And lastly, if this has been suggested before, instead of flaming it or knocking it, please ask yourself *why* it's asked at all...


I don't think anyone will knock that idea, but at the same time, it is probably a symptom of the small size of the genre that something like that doesn't already fully exist. It might not even be all that needed right this very moment (as I think at least a near-majority of PMs are trying to figure out how to build their audience outside of the existing ARG devotees, like Kona notes.)

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 		Another point that came to mind... I think a lot of ideas here could also be seen as the players' request to PMs (moreso from tinag's post than Angri's).

The limitation for UF is mainly in the nature of ARGs. Like kona said, there's no real formula for launching games, for what is or isn't a game, or spam... UF has mutated and adjusted over the years to accomodate the genre - forum layout, tip line, rules about dropping trailheads, the TOS, etc. Admittedly, UF's attempted accomodation for the evolution of the genre isn't perfect (no one said it is), so certainly suggestions about better ways to handle it are welcome.

My point is, by its very nature ARGs really have no rules... the genre's attempt is to offer an interactive storytelling experience that blurs the line between reality and fiction. So the challenge, for PMs and players (newbies and experienced alike, including player resource websites such as UF and ARGN) is to embrace change - not necessaily proactively, since ultimately it's the PMs that set the pace (by listening to players and ultimately offering what they feel is an acceptable balance for their ARG between player experience, scope, and PM requirements) - but productively and open-mindedly.

As FLmutant repeatedly says, it's about doing things differently every time. It's hard to predict what will or won't be successful from a PM's viewpoint - and in this case the same goes from a player's perspective. But for many PMs, part of maintaining this 'false reality', is being unpredictable, thus doing things differently every time; and also why any PM or player tool's success is hit or miss - but the key is encouraging those attempts, from either perspective.

So my perspective of the major topics here:
1) UF - player tool, always changing and adjusting to fit the genre, individual players, puppetmasters, the market, the community - ranges in members from newbies who post in the first thread google leads them to, to the experienced who have lived through many attempted successes and failures. UF wants to be an effective tool for players. Perhaps 'the forums' are limited by the fact it's a forum, and its inherent abilities? That's why Space has unfiction.com listing news, and now despoiler.org - attempts to provide better resources based on player demands; and the forums were recently reorganized a bit to attempt to alleviate some confusion. And I'm sure he'd agree - suggestions are always welcome Smile
2) ARGN - player tool, news site to list real-world news related to the genre, with a list of active games and CF. By the players (mainly experienced however), for the players. ie there's no guarantee that it'll cover everything, and by nature it's subjective to the writers and staff, who do their based to be as objective as possible - again no guarantee for 'perfection'.
3) Proposed PM news site - player tool encouraging PM content; a site set up by the community to provide a resource where PMs have control over their news and trailheads. Details are vague as it's being discussed - what's the scope? Real world news mixed with virtual ARG news? Assets with histories usable by any PM? persistent outside the site, or only what's canon from within the site? Rulesets? Content flexibility? Demographics? -- A midway point between player tools (public, open to all) and PM tools (generally private resources for ARG development).
4) ARG/CF genre expansion. Can it be done proactively? forcefully? or passively, indirectly? Is it the PMs or the players who are key catalysts in this? Should a goal of the genre be to embrace key markets, and put it on itself to offer restrictions, rules, guidelines, that open the door to wider acceptance? How would one require PMs and players to comply with this? Is that even possible?
5) Is this post getting to philosophical, asking too many unanswerable questions? Razz
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