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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: Cloverfield (1-18-08) » Cloverfield: General / Updates
[SPEC]How the monster awakens
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Red Walrus
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 		Something overlooked but goes with the Tagruato drilling awakening the monster.

Ganu Yoshida to Meet with Tanzanian Energy Correspondent to Discuss Mineral Excavation.
Ganu Yoshida is set to meet with Tanzanian Energy Correspondent, Gamal Mobari in mid-October to discuss the potential for mineral excavation on the Tanzanian coast.

At a recent press conference, Yoshida had this to say: "Tanzania's coast houses a plentiful supply of minerals that are pivotal in the production of many of today's medical necessities. Our company would like to explore these possibilities in hopes of providing better service to our loyal customers and opening yet another door on our path to the future."


opening yet another door Opening the door for the monster.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:10 am
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smartmart
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Melampus wrote:
Agreed, Helo... Frackin' A.

One question about the Extremophile stuff: aren't they really, really small? I like the idea of extremophiles being the DSN, but I don't get how the monster could be an extremophile.... are there mammals or lizards or fish that are extremophiles, or are they all micorscopic (or just 'primitive', taxonomically speaking)?

Now, here's something totally different to consider, and it didn't even occur to me until now: the thing walks. I mean, going off the poster alone - it walks, right?

If it does walk, then we've got problems with a plausible 'natural' sea-creature, i.e., one that has lived in the deep, deep oceans (far enough from any land that we wouldn't know about it, other than an occasional 'bloop' reading on sonar), and something that's lived out there in the deep for a long, long time. If that's true, there's no way it would have functional legs - legs that could support it on land. Might as well give it wings - it just doesn't make sense, evolutionarily speaking.

So, either it doesn't walk; or, it's not a natural but as-yet-undiscovered sea-creature, ala Bloop.

If it does walk, then it was either some very ancient creature that got frozen in hibernation somehow (that would also explain its desire to get to land quickly, but how could it make the swim?!); or, it's artificial, designed, etc.

Come to think of it - how does the thing get out of the water at all? Whales don't do so well on land. In fact, most fish don't do so well on land; they're like a fish out of wa...

I dunno - maybe this is just what happens when any monster-movie is analyzed too much.


You are right on, Melampus. How can a walking creature this tall could keep itself underwater so long that human never encountered it? Without loosing its ability to walk. In case of breeding creatures, evolution would have made its ways like whales (whales where land mammals in prehistoric times), modified limbs for swimming. If this film sticks with some scientific background, hibernation theory is going to be a long shot. Some yeasts can kept dormant for thousands of years, but a creature this large? An artificial creature seems more likely. Those deep-sea building machines that Tagruato is developping, could they be put in cause. I don't know if something as improbable as a contamination with a micro-organism that take control over a huge deep-sea robot (making it "alive") could be put forward at this time, but who knows....

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:26 am
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smartmart wrote:
Melampus wrote:
Agreed, Helo... Frackin' A.

One question about the Extremophile stuff: aren't they really, really small? I like the idea of extremophiles being the DSN, but I don't get how the monster could be an extremophile.... are there mammals or lizards or fish that are extremophiles, or are they all micorscopic (or just 'primitive', taxonomically speaking)?

Now, here's something totally different to consider, and it didn't even occur to me until now: the thing walks. I mean, going off the poster alone - it walks, right?

If it does walk, then we've got problems with a plausible 'natural' sea-creature, i.e., one that has lived in the deep, deep oceans (far enough from any land that we wouldn't know about it, other than an occasional 'bloop' reading on sonar), and something that's lived out there in the deep for a long, long time. If that's true, there's no way it would have functional legs - legs that could support it on land. Might as well give it wings - it just doesn't make sense, evolutionarily speaking.

So, either it doesn't walk; or, it's not a natural but as-yet-undiscovered sea-creature, ala Bloop.

If it does walk, then it was either some very ancient creature that got frozen in hibernation somehow (that would also explain its desire to get to land quickly, but how could it make the swim?!); or, it's artificial, designed, etc.

Come to think of it - how does the thing get out of the water at all? Whales don't do so well on land. In fact, most fish don't do so well on land; they're like a fish out of wa...

I dunno - maybe this is just what happens when any monster-movie is analyzed too much.


You are right on, Melampus. How can a walking creature this tall could keep itself underwater so long that human never encountered it? Without loosing its ability to walk. In case of breeding creatures, evolution would have made its ways like whales (whales where land mammals in prehistoric times), modified limbs for swimming. If this film sticks with some scientific background, hibernation theory is going to be a long shot. Some yeasts can kept dormant for thousands of years, but a creature this large? An artificial creature seems more likely. Those deep-sea building machines that Tagruato is developping, could they be put in cause. I don't know if something as improbable as a contamination with a micro-organism that take control over a huge deep-sea robot (making it "alive") could be put forward at this time, but who knows....


The ocean is pretty big, something could hide or lay dormant for a long time. Look at the loch Ness Monster thing, it's been around for a long time. People have reported sightings for years now, but no one can find the creature.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:14 pm
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smartmart
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 		no one ever found the loch ness monster and no one will ever find it. Why? Longevity alone is not enough to support the fact that a creature could be dwelling around for several hundreds of year. You need a sustained population overtime, that breeds and renew its individuals. The number of animals to sustain a population , must be large enough to paliate to inbreeding problems. Such a large creature, wether herbivorous or carnivorous would require huge amount of food to keep them alive. Thus limiting the number of individuals sustained by the ecosystemic food chain (remember we're in lake). I don't have the data at hand to calculate how many individuals can be sustained by the Loch, but it is already proven to be unsufficient resources to sustain a population that won't fall to the bottleneck effect. So if there was ever a loch ness monster it is long dead by now and we will never probably find its remains.

The same should apply to our monster, but with more abundent ressources, since we are at sea.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:48 pm
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 		Okay so we have a paradox. The Loch Ness Monster couldn't exist at present based on your findings, but it has been sighted in the last two years. I'm not willing to debate the existence of the Loch Ness Monster so lets not get off on a tangent. The parallel I'm offering is that if a large creature could exist in a small lake, then a large creature could inhabit the Atlantic without being found.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:57 pm
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smartmart
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 		there are also many UFO sigthings...and ghosts...and Elvis sigthings too, still in 2007


Edit: BTW my comments are good only if the film is sticking to scientifically correct explanations. Otherwise anything is possible

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 		Understood! Hollywood very seldom gets it right.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:06 pm
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 		Location of Chuai Station and distance to NYC
Not sure if this has been discussed, but based on the interactive map on Tagruato.jp, I went to http://www.shaded-relief.com/ and did my best to match up the location of Chuai Station. I'm estimating the location to be approximately 39 degrees latitude by 46.8 degrees longitude. The distance from NYC would be roughly 1,400 to 1,500 miles away.

Chuai Station also appears to be over the North American Abyssal Plain which has an average depth of 16,000 feet and to the west of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, it is a submarine ridge extending north to south in a sinuous path midway between the continents. Roughly 1,500 km (930 mi) wide, the ridge has a more rugged topography than any mountain range on land, and is a frequent site of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. The ridge ranges from about 1 to 3 km (0.6 to 2 mi) above the ocean bottom.

Credit: http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574942/Atlantic_Ocean.html.

Obviously because of the long distance between NYC and the location of Chuai Station anything that happens (explosion or anything found and destroys the station) would not be heard or known in NYC for several days. If the "monster" swims at an average speed of 15 to 20 knots, it could take 3 to 5 days before it reaches NYC. It will be interesting to see if anything is updated or any odd clue is posted on any of the known IG sites a few days before 1-18-08 indicating that something may have happened and some bad juju is on its way to the city.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:32 pm
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Euchre
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Melampus wrote:
Now, here's something totally different to consider, and it didn't even occur to me until now: the thing walks. I mean, going off the poster alone - it walks, right?

If it does walk, then we've got problems with a plausible 'natural' sea-creature, i.e., one that has lived in the deep, deep oceans (far enough from any land that we wouldn't know about it, other than an occasional 'bloop' reading on sonar), and something that's lived out there in the deep for a long, long time. If that's true, there's no way it would have functional legs - legs that could support it on land. Might as well give it wings - it just doesn't make sense, evolutionarily speaking.

Except that there are creatures at that depth with legs that walk. I don't get where legs on a creature that lives on the bottom of the ocean has any less experience of gravity than we do, and at that depth it's got more pressure on it's surface to resist it than we do in the air up here. I'd think it'd have to be stronger proportionally.
Quote:
So, either it doesn't walk; or, it's not a natural but as-yet-undiscovered sea-creature, ala Bloop.

If it does walk, then it was either some very ancient creature that got frozen in hibernation somehow (that would also explain its desire to get to land quickly, but how could it make the swim?!); or, it's artificial, designed, etc.

Indeed, that's why in the whale theory of things, I propose the 'proto-whale' that did walk and had legs - but was never meant to be at that depth. If DSN is somehow ingested and does have an effect to keep it alive, it could survive a nearly cryogenic state to await being warmed up enough to return to normal metabolism. It being an air breathing (apparently, based on the airborne roar) being, it'd be hard to have it active and roaming for all this time, so the stasis would explain it's presence.
Quote:
Come to think of it - how does the thing get out of the water at all? Whales don't do so well on land. In fact, most fish don't do so well on land; they're like a fish out of wa...

Again, the proto-whales had legs. They spent most time in the water, but did walk up on land.

Try thinking like this:
You are a somehow sentient form of stingray swimming in the primordial oceans. Someone suggests to you that a creature could get out in that stuff above the surface of your atmosphere (water), and no less travel in it very similarly to how you do in water. Absurd, right?
Now go look at a bird.
smartmart wrote:
You are right on, Melampus. How can a walking creature this tall could keep itself underwater so long that human never encountered it? Without loosing its ability to walk. In case of breeding creatures, evolution would have made its ways like whales (whales where land mammals in prehistoric times), modified limbs for swimming. If this film sticks with some scientific background, hibernation theory is going to be a long shot. Some yeasts can kept dormant for thousands of years, but a creature this large? An artificial creature seems more likely. Those deep-sea building machines that Tagruato is developping, could they be put in cause. I don't know if something as improbable as a contamination with a micro-organism that take control over a huge deep-sea robot (making it "alive") could be put forward at this time, but who knows....

Again, I answer most of this above, but things that walk don't just occur on land - and we are talking about something coming from the ocean floor. Another thing you imply is that a being so tall as could attack NYC wouldn't go unnoticed. As Chump Force 1 points out:
Chump Force 1 wrote:

Chuai Station also appears to be over the North American Abyssal Plain which has an average depth of 16,000 feet and to the west of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, it is a submarine ridge extending north to south in a sinuous path midway between the continents. Roughly 1,500 km (930 mi) wide, the ridge has a more rugged topography than any mountain range on land, and is a frequent site of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes. The ridge ranges from about 1 to 3 km (0.6 to 2 mi) above the ocean bottom.

Credit: http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761574942/Atlantic_Ocean.html.

That's over 3 miles down. The highest peaks in the nearby ridge would still be a mile below the surface. This monster isn't nearly that tall, and based on what we've seen about it's works of destruction it's no more than 1/3 of a mile tall. I base this on:
The Statue of Liberty, which is 305 feet, 1 inch tall.
The Empire State Building, which is 1,453 feet, 8 9/16 inches tall.
Chump Force 1 wrote:
Obviously because of the long distance between NYC and the location of Chuai Station anything that happens (explosion or anything found and destroys the station) would not be heard or known in NYC for several days. If the "monster" swims at an average speed of 15 to 20 knots, it could take 3 to 5 days before it reaches NYC. It will be interesting to see if anything is updated or any odd clue is posted on any of the known IG sites a few days before 1-18-08 indicating that something may have happened and some bad juju is on its way to the city.

Nice work, and a good basic reference mathematically. I would note that you are basically talking about a straight line between the two, which most organic life doesn't do a good job of traveling. I'd say 7-10 days is more of a natural sort of time frame, allowing for slight wandering and ocean currents. Of course, that kind of time would certainly allow for info to possibly leak about something happening at the station - lucky for us!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:10 pm
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 		ocean equals salt water that is more dense than air. Even if you can "walk" on the ocean floor, unless you have a solid exoskeleton (like a lobster) the lower air density will make you fell this -9.81m/s2 acceleration that we call gravity at full scale. A big animal with an endoskeleton( speculation) like our monster would crush to the ground unable to move, unless it is used to get on ground a substantial and recurrent amount of time. That is why human should have encountered it before,if it is a couple hundred feet tall and powerfull enough to rip SOL apart.

Edit:Like I said before, it all depend on the level of scientific plausability that this film wish to serves us. It could 100% SF for all that matter. I just hope it is going to be a good movie.[url]

Reedit: Depth pressure as force vector is applied equally to the total area of a mass in the water. It crushes you from all directions simultaneously. I does not add the the force vector of gravity, in fact the density of water help you to maintain against it. Read on Archimede's law or why boats floats.[/url]

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:10 am
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smartmart wrote:
ocean equals salt water that is more dense than air. Even if you can "walk" on the ocean floor, unless you have a solid exoskeleton (like a lobster) the lower air density will make you fell this -9.81m/s2 acceleration that we call gravity at full scale. A big animal with an endoskeleton( speculation) like our monster would crush to the ground unable to move, unless it is used to get on ground a substantial and recurrent amount of time. That is why human should have encountered it before,if it is a couple hundred feet tall and powerfull enough to rip SOL apart.

Edit:Like I said before, it all depend on the level of scientific plausability that this film wish to serves us. It could 100% SF for all that matter. I just hope it is going to be a good movie.

Uh, I don't see how pressure over the whole surface of a being's body (by air or water) has any impact on the independent and equal force of gravity as applied in this instance. A creature from the deep ocean with higher pressures wouldn't just 'fall down' because of less air pressure on the surface. I think you are confusing buoyant creatures and their need for the pressure to keep them from having problems, like our current whales that can't very well sustain proper breathing and circulation when plopped on land - but they aren't walking. Walking creatures have a very different bone structure that tends to keep them in a relatively solid displacement of space - so there wouldn't be much of an issue even breathing. Another good example is astronauts on the moon - they didn't just 'fall over' for lack of atmospheric pressure, and they wore soft suits.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:24 am
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buildingblock
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 		hey listen I know that this is a little bit off-topic, but I definitely think that the monster has something to do with whales, maybe an earlier evolved species or something. To me there are just way too many whale references on the slusho site and also the picture of the dolphin on tagruato.jp. I was just thinking after doing some research on Wiki from what Euchre said before. Anyway... go back to your debate. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:41 am
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Euchre wrote:
Nice work, and a good basic reference mathematically. I would note that you are basically talking about a straight line between the two, which most organic life doesn't do a good job of traveling. I'd say 7-10 days is more of a natural sort of time frame, allowing for slight wandering and ocean currents. Of course, that kind of time would certainly allow for info to possibly leak about something happening at the station - lucky for us!


Yeah, I was being overly simplistic and doing the straight line thing...also, I assume the station would be in regular radio/satellite contact with HQ and once it goes off-line we'll see some activity on the IG sites a week or so before 1/18/08

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Euchre wrote:
smartmart wrote:
ocean equals salt water that is more dense than air. Even if you can "walk" on the ocean floor, unless you have a solid exoskeleton (like a lobster) the lower air density will make you fell this -9.81m/s2 acceleration that we call gravity at full scale. A big animal with an endoskeleton( speculation) like our monster would crush to the ground unable to move, unless it is used to get on ground a substantial and recurrent amount of time. That is why human should have encountered it before,if it is a couple hundred feet tall and powerfull enough to rip SOL apart.

Edit:Like I said before, it all depend on the level of scientific plausability that this film wish to serves us. It could 100% SF for all that matter. I just hope it is going to be a good movie.

Uh, I don't see how pressure over the whole surface of a being's body (by air or water) has any impact on the independent and equal force of gravity as applied in this instance. A creature from the deep ocean with higher pressures wouldn't just 'fall down' because of less air pressure on the surface. I think you are confusing buoyant creatures and their need for the pressure to keep them from having problems, like our current whales that can't very well sustain proper breathing and circulation when plopped on land - but they aren't walking. Walking creatures have a very different bone structure that tends to keep them in a relatively solid displacement of space - so there wouldn't be much of an issue even breathing. Another good example is astronauts on the moon - they didn't just 'fall over' for lack of atmospheric pressure, and they wore soft suits.


You are mixing things here Euchre. Gravity, Archimede's Law, fluid' physic ,and biomechanics. I will take the time to explain, because my scientist eyes are aching from what I see here. Don't take no offense please, I don't want to start something, but physics, fluid's physic, and biomechanics needs to be adressed properly if we want to use science to explain thing here.

First, gravity. The gravitational force on earth is a constant : - 9,81 m/s2. We are always accelerating toward the center of the Earth. You will fall down as long as you dont stand on a surface with enough resistance to keep your mass steady. The gravitational forces are related to the diameter, the mass and the velocity of our planet. The moon is smaller thus it have a lesser gravitional force (1.622 m/s˛) which is one sixth of Earth's gravitational pull. So for a Earthling standing up on the Moon, muscles will have to exert 1/6th of the force required on Earth to stay up.

Second, Archimede's Law. "When a solid body is partially or completely immersed in water, the apparent loss in weight will be equal to the weight of the displaced liquid." In other words, when a body is partially or completely immersed in a liquid, then it experiences an upward buoyant force which is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the immersed part of the body. This force works, depending on the object density will work against gravity . Now to have a creature that walk on the ocean floor AND build a musculoskeletal systems powerful enough to pushes force vector that equals the gravitational forces on land, it will need to have a body density greater than water. In fact it should no buoyancy at all, which is very unlikely for an organic life form that is this big. For a creature this big you can just imagine the total weight of it, it's unthinkable.

Third, fluid physics. Air and water acts in the same way to oppose any forces (Newton's Third Law). The only difference is that air is less dense that water, it opposes less resistance. So for a big ocean floor walking creature, water is some sort of help for it. It will help keep balance while moving since it opposes much more resistance. Any such creature that will be taken in a media less dense than water, will have a great difficulty just to keep itself up. All of it sensitivomotors skills will be render ineffective. it will that great lenght of reeducation to regain mobility. An other problem is the water pressure, at this depth an object feels the pressure proportional to the sum of the water columns weight over it we are in the figure of 200 atm to 1000 atm (1 atm=101.325 kPa). Just imagine the kind of pressure it exert on a creature with an endoskeleton (because it needs muscle to walk). In fact, at these depth fishes have special adaptations to cope with these conditions - they are small, usually being under 25cm; they have slow metabolisms and unspecialized diets, preferring to sit and wait for food rather than waste energy searching for it. They have elongated bodies with weak, watery muscles and skeletal structures. Water pressure is just too great for big endoskeleton biomass.


Fourth, biomechanics. The musculoskeletal system of any vertebrate is principally adapted to one thing, opposes the gravitational forces to gain mobility. The amount of force deployed by a said muscle will be proportional to the average force required, unless it is trained volontarily to exert more force. An ocean floor walking creature, would not be in need of the same muscle force than a land creature because of the principles stated before, hence a lower muscular mass.


That is why a "never on dry land" walking creature is scientifically improbable. Again, in a movie SF always win so...

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:08 am
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Quote:
Reedit: Depth pressure as force vector is applied equally to the total area of a mass in the water. It crushes you from all directions simultaneously. I does not add the the force vector of gravity, in fact the density of water help you to maintain against it. Read on Archimede's law or why boats floats.[/url]


Depth, pressure and heat are key to this. That's where extremophiles come into the picture. The mention of them on Tagruato has to be an integral clue.
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