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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
In-Game Characters Referencing unFiction
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Silent|away
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 		Hm...I made an error...

Actually, when I said it violates what TINAG stands for, I mean it violates what I think TINAG stands for. However, I think rose is more right than I am, so, my view is just that, my view.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:35 pm
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xnbomb
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 		What is real? How do you define real?
Silent|away wrote:
[But that is exactly the same policy as in books, or in video games that I play as well. All of the cutscenes show the characters beliving that the game is in fact real. What differenates the TINAG policy of ARGs from the standard policies in most other games that you play?

Yes, but in the case of books or video games, there is no chance of the characters accidentally finding out from you that they are in a book or video game. One of things that makes ARGs neat is that players do sometimes get to interact with characters on a more direct basis ... they tell us things, but we tell them things too. TINAG requires the game to believe itself not to be a game, even though it actually is a game. And, on a slightly more meta level, to utterly resist the possibility of ever finding out that it is a game, even though players may have a chance to talk to characters.

Silent|away wrote:
I assumed it was due to the fact that the players ALSO do not believe it is a game. Once the players believe that it is real, and also adopt TINAG, then it is well.

The role of players in this system is to know it is a game, but treat it as not a game when interacting with characters. After all, the characters don't know it is a game, and cannot really find out without the whole thing falling apart.

Silent|away wrote:
I know it's hard or impossible to cross that boundary, but it just seems that it violates what TINAG is supposed to stand for.

I think a lot of people have taken what it stands for in different (perhaps erroneous?) ways. But, I'm going to go by the sense that the coiner of the term has explained it on occasion: The essence of TINAG is that the game treats itself seriously, as being real. And you're right, that's not different from lots of other kinds of fiction. Except it's not quite fiction here, because some of it happens to players when they interact with the alternate reality. So, perhaps it's just a convenient shorthand to describe the extent of the reality to the various parties; utterly real to characters, requiring players to treat it as real when interacting with the alternate reality, and players potentially being aware of it as a game otherwise (like when discussing it on these forums).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:49 pm
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catherwood
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
xnbomb wrote:
Yes, but in the case of books or video games, there is no chance of the characters accidentally finding out from you that they are in a book or video game. One of things that makes ARGs neat is that players do sometimes get to interact with characters on a more direct basis ... they tell us things, but we tell them things too.

In this sense, an ARG is closer to live mystery dinner theater, in which you become part of the action -- you can choose to act as yourself or put on airs and role play it larger than life, but you are still "you" to your surroundings. Sometimes an experimental theater group will come off stage and bring the performance into the audience -- and the audience is just expected to know that they are not supposed to tell the characters that this is just a play and that this isn't real.

With ARGs being a fairly new art form, the audience members are not always sure of how to play along, how to participate as if it were real but still know it's a game. Everyone knows how to read a book without breaking the magical spell of immersion; most people know how to watch a movie in a group without spoiling the immersion for their fellow patrons; many people can play along with improve theater without cracking under the strain of acting as if it were real in that moment, but still know there are boundaries of reality to fall back on afterwards.

What was I saying? Oh yeah, the in-game characters should never need to step out of character. A game might have a meta link to Unfiction, but the characters within the game are not going deal well with such a break in their reality.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:32 pm
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imbriModerator
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
So, we all have our opinions on TINAG and, to be honest, mine is that it is a very misunderstood term. For me, TINAG is two things 1) a design philosophy and 2) a player mantra. They are related, in some ways, but very different.

Silent|away wrote:
[But that is exactly the same policy as in books, or in video games that I play as well. All of the cutscenes show the characters beliving that the game is in fact real. What differenates the TINAG policy of ARGs from the standard policies in most other games that you play?


As a design philosophy, TINAG doesn't stop with characters. In all works of fiction, characters believe themselves to be real and present themselves in that manner. If they don't, they aren't believable or easy to relate to and the fiction breaks down. When it comes to more traditional fiction (books, television, film, video games), the TINAG can stop with the character because the fiction stops there. The same is not true with ARGs. If there's a phone number or email address or whatever, these things need to be real or the fiction begins to break down. So, it's not that the TINAG is different, but that the universe is contained in a different way and so the TINAG needs to extend appropriately.



xnbomb wrote:
Silent|away wrote:
I assumed it was due to the fact that the players ALSO do not believe it is a game. Once the players believe that it is real, and also adopt TINAG, then it is well.

The role of players in this system is to know it is a game, but treat it as not a game when interacting with characters. After all, the characters don't know it is a game, and cannot really find out without the whole thing falling apart.


Here's where TINAG become a "player mantra". It's very much in human nature to find (and push) boundaries. People need to find that sense of security, this is true in general life as much as it is in play. In order to feel comfortable in a game universe that bleeds into real life, the need for boundaries becomes even more important. ARG players find these boundaries in a lot of ways, but one of them is through the mantra of "this is not a game" - it's a catchy little phrase that lets them reinforce the fact that it is a game and that the boundaries do exist. As they become comfortable with those boundaries, they can more easily slip into the suspension of disbelief that is required to enjoy the fiction.

There's an interesting point where the design philosophy and mantra intersect in a rather opposite way. While the Uncanny Valley is typically used in discussing robots, I think it very much exists in ARGs. Essentially, the idea of the Uncanny Valley is that there comes a point where robots look so human that they become repulsive. Instead of looking at the robots in awe of the similarities and what they can do, we look at the differences and what they can't do. As an ARG universe and story becomes to real, players become more critical of it. They need to find the boundaries and so they search and find all the problems and the ways in which it doesn't hold up. Instead of being a fun rallying cry and game mantra, the cries of This Is Not A Game! become a defense mechanism to show holes in the universe.

So, while this may seem counter to some, you can create a more believable world and universe by actually making it look and feel a bit less real. By doing this, the players will focus on the similarities and point to the ways in which it is real while providing them with some fairly obvious boundaries (say, a fiction that takes place several hundred years in the future) that they can ignore as easily as they can see.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:56 pm
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Rekidk
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
catherwood wrote:
xnbomb wrote:
Yes, but in the case of books or video games, there is no chance of the characters accidentally finding out from you that they are in a book or video game. One of things that makes ARGs neat is that players do sometimes get to interact with characters on a more direct basis ... they tell us things, but we tell them things too.

In this sense, an ARG is closer to live mystery dinner theater, in which you become part of the action -- you can choose to act as yourself or put on airs and role play it larger than life, but you are still "you" to your surroundings.


I've been using that comparison--mystery dinner theatre--to explain ARGs to people for a while. IMO, mystery dinner theatre was the first ARG. (I'll argue that until the day I die.)

I agree that all forms of fiction believe that they are real--unless they break the 4th wall for comedic effect--but this idea of TINAG is different from the ARG idea of TINAG. In an ARG, there is no 4th wall to separate the players from the characters. So you can't use TINAG in the same way to describe a movie as you would use it to describe an ARG.

I think that everybody's definition of TINAG varies somewhat, and it's a concept that's even harder to define specifically than the term 'ARG.' However, everybody has a very similar abstract definition of the term 'ARG,' just as everybody has a very similar abstract definition of TINAG. Trying to define it with words is probably too difficult to be worthwhile.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:52 pm
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FLmutant
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
Rekidk wrote:
I've been using that comparison--mystery dinner theatre--to explain ARGs to people for a while. IMO, mystery dinner theatre was the first ARG. (I'll argue that until the day I die.)


It is also a great "lie" that LARP developers taught me: when you're doing something unusual (like, oh, taking out strange ads in a rural newspaper, or asking whether there's an ATV route up to scare friends) it is always easier to just tell them "we're doing a murder mystery party" than to try to tell them was a LARP or an ARG really is.

Mac in the book Cthulhu Live wrote:
Many look at live role-playing games with some skepticism and mistrust. Murder mystery parties are more widely known and better accepted than live role-playing games. When negotiating with people who may not be familiar with LARPs, you will have better success describing it in terms of a murder mystery type event [...] A couple examples include the infamous "summon cops" spell inadvertently cast by a Keeper through the ignition of a giant, flaming elder sign cut into an open field. After showing the police the careful safety precautions and advance planning that were taken and reassuring them that this was just one of those "murder mystery" games, everything was comfortably resolved.


We've run into the same problem with Eldritch ... and made it go away by telling them it was a "murder mystery party". Heck, and it is only a small white lie, right?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:47 am
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Varin
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
FLmutant wrote:
We've run into the same problem with Eldritch ... and made it go away by telling them it was a "murder mystery party". Heck, and it is only a small white lie, right?


And that's exactly how I explained it to my overly paranoid parents. "I'm heading up into the mountains for a murder mystery party!" Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:48 am
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konamouse
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
Varin wrote:
FLmutant wrote:
We've run into the same problem with Eldritch ... and made it go away by telling them it was a "murder mystery party". Heck, and it is only a small white lie, right?

And that's exactly how I explained it to my overly paranoid parents. "I'm heading up into the mountains for a murder mystery party!" Wink


And it's always just a party until someone gets hurt. Twisted Evil Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:25 pm
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Jas0n
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 		sometimes as a PM there are some difficulties in avoiding referencing these sites... the last time I was heavily involved in communicating through a character I was getting e-mails directing the character to the forums from some players that obviously didn't realize that there should be a seperation between this site and the characters.. I handled it by having my character apparently investigate the forum and immediately call out the guys who e-mailed him with the links claiming the people on this site were wackos or something along those lines... for a person to have someone claim he's a fictional character in the game - that's about the best way to reference it Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:09 am
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Rolerbe
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
konamouse wrote:

And it's always just a party until someone gets hurt. Twisted Evil Wink


The difference between TINAG reality and real reality is the same as the difference between 'Fencing' as a sport and fighting for your life with a sword. It's the same as the difference between a horror movie and being trapped by a serial killer. It's the same as the difference between a 'first person shooter' video game and a tour of duty in Iraq.

One plays a tad more conservatively when you have no more 'lives' to restart from.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:47 pm
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FLmutant
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 		Re: What is real? How do you define real?
Rolerbe wrote:
konamouse wrote:

And it's always just a party until someone gets hurt. Twisted Evil Wink


The difference between TINAG reality and real reality is the same as the difference between 'Fencing' as a sport and fighting for your life with a sword. It's the same as the difference between a horror movie and being trapped by a serial killer. It's the same as the difference between a 'first person shooter' video game and a tour of duty in Iraq.

One plays a tad more conservatively when you have no more 'lives' to restart from.


I used to believe that. Instead, there is an uncanny valley, and those distinctions aren't as clear.

Elements of Eldritch Book 2 Live Event more like "tour of duty" than "first person shooter":

* horrible weather and feezing tempartures
* starving bears
* coal smoke
* axes
* lack of access to civilization
* more starving bears

Elements more like a "first person shooter":

* psychics who wake up screaming from their nightmares
* people kidnapping actors off the street

The immersion meter can go REALLY DEEP if you want. Right on up to the edge where the Secret Service calls me every few years because I accidentily scare them.

Safety in this wacky trust experience comes in great part by respecting that this place is one place you'll never fiddle with. Worry if the "kidnappers" are coming back to your cottage with no phone to get rid of you. Don't worry that what they talk about here will impact the story they are participating in.

Boundries are good for art.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:35 pm
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tygr20
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Jas0n wrote:
... I was getting e-mails directing the character to the forums from some players that obviously didn't realize that there should be a seperation between this site and the characters.. I handled it by having my character apparently investigate the forum and immediately call out the guys who e-mailed him with the links claiming the people on this site were wackos or something along those lines...


Alternately, a character could easily also say "unfiction.com? u-n-f-i-c-t-i-o-n DOT c-o-m? Are you sure you're spelling it right? I get nothing."
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:24 am
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FLmutant
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tygr20 wrote:
Jas0n wrote:
... I was getting e-mails directing the character to the forums from some players that obviously didn't realize that there should be a seperation between this site and the characters.. I handled it by having my character apparently investigate the forum and immediately call out the guys who e-mailed him with the links claiming the people on this site were wackos or something along those lines...


Alternately, a character could easily also say "unfiction.com? u-n-f-i-c-t-i-o-n DOT c-o-m? Are you sure you're spelling it right? I get nothing."


Heh heh ... you can use that same trick to avoid all kinds of narrative problems. HaxanMike will also remember the story of all the people emailing "Derek Barnes" trying to tell him to watch the television show he was in. The solution (by the brilliant Brian Cain) was to replace "Freakylinks" with a totally different and even worse television show called "Creepygeeks".

Heck, if you're hacking all of reality, why not hack your own reality too, right?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:55 pm
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Star Spider
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 		Why Not?
Why not have a character accept that they are a character in a game and take actions towards figuring out why?

I understand that ARG's have a certain format that they would like to follow - generally a certain story they would like to tell. But if something were to happen like a character being informed of it's own nature could it not be another job of the PM to create some sort of offshoot of their story to cover such things? The great thing I have been noticing about the art of games and game design (especially within the ARG world - also akin to the D & D world) is that it allows for a flexability and changes to not go unrecognized and acted upon.

I can see that being a really interesting twist in a story - heck I might even plant a fake player to tell a character that they are a character to see what kind of multi-layered story can occur from that.

I am thinking about it as though each game were a seperate world and generally unaware that the the other exists. However if a character were to understand their own place in their world that might lead to a greater understanding of the universe as a whole and lead things like space/time travel and interdimensional jumping.

Instead of avoiding couldn't we integrate?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:25 pm
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johnny5
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 		Re: Why Not?
Star Spider wrote:
Why not have a character accept that they are a character in a game and take actions towards figuring out why?


You mean like this?
Ian Yarborough from Art of the Heist, paraphrased to how I remember it wrote:

They think we're characters in some game! This isn't a game, this is my life!"

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:08 pm
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